Rome is literally America or why Sargon of Akkad should not be taken seriously

[Theodarzna]

That's like saying "Everyone dies, therefore life is pointless and you should focus on your inevitable death for the duration of your life."

..... Well everyone does die, that is just a fact.

[Templar 331]

1. He is comparing a myth to reality?

Does it make more sense that a British man believes that Rome was founded by the descendants of a Trojan warrior and that the U.S. was destined to "conquer" land all the way to the Pacific? No. It makes more sense that he is projecting their point of view so as to compare them better.

2. Where does he say that? Or is it some subtext I'm missing?

The subtext is in the comparisons he is making.

3.he states a shift in power from oligarchy to a liberal democracy. The study he quotes to determine that the US is an oligarchy states the US is an oligarchy, because corporate interests and elite are much more effective in passing preferable policy. Trump's proposals as far as I know do not address this issue.

I didn't say Trump's proposals would do that, just that if he is in office that it would shift things around and not in a good way.

What Sargon is doing is comparing Trump to Gaius Gracchus(god that was a pain to figure out how to spell) and proposing that Trump take office to institute reforms. Once those reforms take place then "liberalism" will take root again. I don't agree with this. I see Trump as a wrecking ball to the institutions we have but he would destroy the little bit of liberalism we have here as well.

I believe Sargon doesn't understand the American conservative mindset. It's not entirely different from the European one but seeing as how he thinks Trump is a "reformer" he must not understand the implications on the psyche of America. It would embolden the right wing to the point of them having a power trip. We would go backwards on any form of progress.

[Theodarzna]

I didn't say Trump's proposals would do that, just that if he is in office that it would shift things around and not in a good way.

What Sargon is doing is comparing Trump to Gaius Gracchus(god that was a pain to figure out how to spell) and proposing that Trump take office to institute reforms. Once those reforms take place then "liberalism" will take root again. I don't agree with this. I see Trump as a wrecking ball to the institutions we have but he would destroy the little bit of liberalism we have here as well.

I believe Sargon doesn't understand the American conservative mindset. It's not entirely different from the European one but seeing as how he thinks Trump is a "reformer" he must not understand the implications on the psyche of America. It would embolden the right wing to the point of them having a power trip. We would go backwards on any form of progress.

I would argue that Trump does not figure into the story. If the Roman Empire had a Trump figure or anything like him I cannot say as Roman History isn't exactly my specialty, only Celtic History. However the idea that America is a bloated, expensive, corrupt oligarchy on the road to ruin is perfectly valid.

Trump has merely capitalized on a political vacuum as neither party gives a shit about the Working Classes (Trump doesn't either) and after 40 years of misery they are exceptionally pissed off as a collective. If this sort of thing happened in Rome we can only infer it did since documentation isn't that extensive on the late Roman Empire. Rome's problems are best looked at generally, as are Americas/Global Civilization.

Trump is a natural revolt against it, as the bloated behemoth must make ever greater sacrifices so survive, the sacrificial lambs might start to resist being sacrificed.

Clinton and the Republican party and the Democratic party obviously believe that long term and lasting solutions to the problems exist, Or that America is without problems and the Working Class need to simply be silenced and made obedient. It is hard to say IMHO, but as far as I can see it that would be roughly the situation. America wishes to survive and hold onto its global Empire of sorts, and is learning that Empire is difficult.

The Romans also learned this, actually EVERY Empire learned this. This is why most cultures of any great age tend to have a cyclically or non-linear/progressive view of history. The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Hindu, Greek, even the Romans themselves, and most of the medieval thinkers supporting theories of rhythmical, cyclical or trendless movements of social processes were much nearer to reality than the present proponents of the linear view. In my view the decline of Empire or of a State is just natural and dare I say it is unavoidable.

[Lady Dragonheart]

..... Well everyone does die, that is just a fact.

It's not the fact that's the issue, though. That's the point.

[Theodarzna]

It's not the fact that's the issue, though. That's the point.

Death is a positive force, without it the world would be too overcrowded, there would soon be no place for new seedlings to grow.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Death is a positive force, without it the world would be too overcrowded, there would soon be no place for new seedlings to grow.

I already said that the fact that things die isn't the issue, twice now.

[Addict]

Death is a positive force, without it the world would be too overcrowded, there would soon be no place for new seedlings to grow.

Tell that to the dying.

I think you phrased that in a odd way, death is more a way to get things going - as a motivation to leave a legacy behind to live on when you dont. Thats not a motivation for a lot of people, but for some it does wonders.

And yeah nothing lasts forever, doesnt mean that because it wont - people should just sit down and wait for the inevidable end. Lets just hope that whatever springs after us takes a lesson in how this era fell and do not... DO NOT! fill donuts with mashed berries.

[Theodarzna]

Tell that to the dying.

I think you phrased that in a odd way, death is more a way to get things going - as a motivation to leave a legacy behind to live on when you dont. Thats not a motivation for a lot of people, but for some it does wonders.

And yeah nothing lasts forever, doesnt mean that because it wont - people should just sit down and wait for the inevidable end. Lets just hope that whatever springs after us takes a lesson in how this era fell and do not... DO NOT! fill donuts with mashed berries.

That would be applicable to every living thing, since we are all heading for a certain fate that comes at an uncertain date.

I've also never said that you should do nothing, but your time is precious and chose to do with it what you think might matter.

[Super Kami Dende]

British accent? Check.
Whines about religion? Check.
Whines about feminism? Check.
Arrogant? Check.

These guys are a dime a dozen on youtube. It's like if you have a British accent people automatically assume that you know what you're talking about.

Well he mostly does know what he is talking about and he doesn't "whine", he mostly stats facts to counter the absurd "statistics" that a bunch of moronic tumblrtards post like the infamous 1/4 rape stat myth.

[NED funded]

Does it make more sense that a British man believes that Rome was founded by the descendants of a Trojan warrior and that the U.S. was destined to "conquer" land all the way to the Pacific? No. It makes more sense that he is projecting their point of view so as to compare them better.



The subtext is in the comparisons he is making.



I didn't say Trump's proposals would do that, just that if he is in office that it would shift things around and not in a good way.

What Sargon is doing is comparing Trump to Gaius Gracchus(god that was a pain to figure out how to spell) and proposing that Trump take office to institute reforms. Once those reforms take place then "liberalism" will take root again. I don't agree with this. I see Trump as a wrecking ball to the institutions we have but he would destroy the little bit of liberalism we have here as well.

I believe Sargon doesn't understand the American conservative mindset. It's not entirely different from the European one but seeing as how he thinks Trump is a "reformer" he must not understand the implications on the psyche of America. It would embolden the right wing to the point of them having a power trip. We would go backwards on any form of progress.

1. It makes more sense to admit that Carl genuinely fucked up, rather than try to excuae his mistakes by saying he is stating the perspective of the Roman individual and / or american individual.
2. Do you think Trump will get a rid of the influence of the elite and corporate interests in politics?

[Templar 331]

1. It makes more sense to admit that Carl genuinely fucked up, rather than try to excuae his mistakes by saying he is stating the perspective of the Roman individual and / or american individual.

Whatever makes you feel better dude......

2. Do you think Trump will get a rid of the influence of the elite and corporate interests in politics?

Of course not. He's going to pretend he's "reigning in the corporations" while at the same time make back room dealings with his buddies. If he does become president I expect a breach of ethics of some kind within the year. And he'll play it off like "What? I can't do that? I just did." All the while his followers will praise him for it.

[NED funded]

Whatever makes you feel better dude......



Of course not. He's going to pretend he's "reigning in the corporations" while at the same time make back room dealings with his buddies. If he does become president I expect a breach of ethics of some kind within the year. And he'll play it off like "What? I can't do that? I just did." All the while his followers will praise him for it.

1. C'mon dude. He literally says that Rome and America had a similar history. Then he proceeds to tell the myth of Aeneas and presents it as Rome's origin. He never states that he is projecting the perspective of the Roman individual.
2. Then you were agreeing with me from the very beginning.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Death is a positive force, without it the world would be too overcrowded, there would soon be no place for new seedlings to grow.

No Death is not a positive force, that would imply all death is equal. My father...he could of lived. So respectfully you are dead wrong.

[NED funded]

I think STEM jobs are not a panacea.

One is that their would exist a ton of bad STEM people only in it for the income. So we would have a lot useless "mathematicians," for example simply in it for income. More over we would not have solved the issue of chronic job insecurity, and indeed funneling displaced workers to STEM fields would be a false promise, for the more of them there are flooding that market the worse the pay and the worse the job security. The issue is not solved.

I understand that the US is an Oligarchy, I just disagree with this notion that that Oligarchy wants Donald Trump to be president. It is absolutely the case, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that every institutional structure of power from corporate interests, hedge funds, Wall Street, politicians, and commerce oriented power cliques both want Clinton but more importantly they actually want Free Trade, its the general public that is against it. If companies would benefit from Trump they certainly have put the chips on Clinton, and no I do not think it is out of some kindness or whatever.

Trump right now represents the victims of Globalization, even if he is a fraud.

Not all people have the same interests. Some companies are negatively affected by free trade. This companies benefit from Trump's policies, so they aid him in his campaign and in designing policy proposals.

[Templar 331]

1. C'mon dude. He literally says that Rome and America had a similar history. Then he proceeds to tell the myth of Aeneas and presents it as Rome's origin. He never states that he is projecting the perspective of the Roman individual.

The Romans at the time believed it to be true so it was history to them. Just like many Americans believed at the time that we should have the land all the way to the Pacific. So it makes sense to me that he's speaking through them and not himself. It would have been a better argument had he stayed on just facts but it's his argument and not mine.

2. Then you were agreeing with me from the very beginning.

Pretty much. I was just trying to clarify Sargon's opinion as good as I could even though I don't agree with it. Sargon has a quote I can't remember off the top of my head that pretty much states that you can evaluate a different opinion from yours while being objective and not give it any weight.

[Theodarzna]

Not all people have the same interests. Some companies are negatively affected by free trade. This companies benefit from Trump's policies, so they aid him in his campaign and in designing policy proposals.

Which companies? For the life of me I cannot find any centers of corporate power that actually back him, in fact Corporate America seems to universally back Hillary Clinton.

Globalization absolutely hurts individual workers and the pain of globalization falls disproportionately on the Working Class, idk how your getting this as some mass popular idea that the evil corporations oppose, or that Trump is some representative of business interests, especially with his Anti-TPP stance.

BUT in terms of Imperial power, things like NAFTA, TPP, TTIP, or Hillary's dream of a Hemisphere wide common market with open borders ect is a somewhat logical step in the project of Empire. It helps secure and wrench from the held territory as much returns as the planet can produce annually. The problem is its expensive, creates havoc and will be revolted against by the populace.

In this sense we are following the trajectory of all civilizations, as Dr. Tainter noted in that video I linked. We try our best to reform, or create innovative solutions to solve these theoretical problems, but in reality we ignore the problems our solutions create.

- - - Updated - - -

No Death is not a positive force, that would imply all death is equal. My father...he could of lived. So respectfully you are dead wrong.

So could mine, but Cancer got him. I do wish he still lived, but I wouldn't wish him to live forever.

[May90]

Also, someone forgot to tell Sargon that America is two continents, while Rome was a state and a city!

[Barael]

"Will the US elections be rigged" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS40ox_2dqc)

Strike three, Sargon. Gonna miss TWIS but that's enough for me, unsubbed.

[Mistame]

Couldn't be bothered to see if this had been mentioned, but someone doesn't understand what "literally" means.