Why is Sylvanas becoming this?

[Onvious]

the only problem with Slyvanas, lot of ppl thinks real life morals.

and yes Felfire and fire are more dangerous. ah I forgot to mention mana bomb.

[TheFirstOnes]

Bow before your queen

Pfft. Why should I? We players wield planet busting (Possibly even system smashing..well...as of us being lvl 110 maxed) blades. Why should I bow to some puny little queen, or some..twilight looking wolf? Pfft, fuck that. I'm fighting gods now. I kicked odyns ass twice (Once was a little test, the other one was FOR REAL), I kicked the shit out of cenarius, helya, gul'dan, and possibly even the avatar of sargeras, maybe even kil'jaeden. And yet, you're telling me to bow to some....dead..rotten...meat that happened to be a hunter general one time? Ahahahahaha

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the only problem with Slyvanas, lot of ppl thinks real life morals.

and yes Felfire and fire are more dangerous. ah I forgot to mention mana bomb.

Sylvanas is that one scene kid that nobody understands, and does drugs with her "bestie" (AKA helya), while getting abused by some fucked up maniac (Genn). Also, she was also that bitch with family issues, while getting killed by her edgy enemy (Arthas).

So..in a sense. Sylvanas is every dark and edgy anime character ever. :/ I have no regrets sayin that.

[Hctaz]

Not all undead go to where she did. We see plenty of examples of us killing undead and them going to a light based afterlife for example in EPL.

Which is silly because it was stated in some book or something that all undead go to hell basically. I dunno though it's been a while. Could be wrong.

[Friendlyimmolation]

We players wield planet busting

Lol no, if your talking bout the scepter of Sarg, its only as powerful as the wielder. Even Ner'zhul had the aid of outside sources to do what he did to Draenor.

I'm fighting gods now. I kicked odyns ass twice (Once was a little test, the other one was FOR REAL)

Neither in the raid or in the dungeon is his ass kicked.

I kicked the shit out of cenarius, helya, gul'dan, and possibly even the avatar of sargeras, maybe even kil'jaeden. And yet, you're telling me to bow to some....dead..rotten...meat that happened to be a hunter general one time? Ahahahahaha

Nothing you have done alone, by yourself.

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Which is silly because it was stated in some book or something that all undead go to hell basically. I dunno though it's been a while. Could be wrong.

there has been no book that ever said that, it would be all over WoWpedia if it was so.

[Florena]

Which is silly because it was stated in some book or something that all undead go to hell basically. I dunno though it's been a while. Could be wrong.

Do you remember what book? Because this would be big news to me.

[Aucald]

Which is silly because it was stated in some book or something that all undead go to hell basically. I dunno though it's been a while. Could be wrong.

there has been no book that ever said that, it would be all over WoWpedia if it was so.

I assume he's referring to "Edge of Night" on that one, and it's still unknown if Sylvanas' afterlife predicament is a factor of Necromantic undeath, specific to her particular rebirth into undeath (e.g. being raised directly by the Death Knight Arthas as a Banshee), or due to her actions during her undeath. Jury's still out on the fate of the Forsaken, there's evidence that they can reach a positive afterlife pretty much naturally on their second death (assuming they deserve such) - or "damnation" may be their default regardless of actions in life, but they can still tip the scales towards a positive outcome through decency and re-embracing their humanity.

[Qualia]

It doesn't matter what I ask for since I don't live in Azeroth.
In Azeroth every human is born with an Old God-curse that brings pain and suffering.
That is canon.

Now that is wrong, it's not canon - only the first half of it is. It's canon that human, gnomes, dwarves are born with Curse of Flesh. However, it doesn't "brings pain and suffering". Not sure which canon source did you get that from. It's true that the Curse of Flesh makes us... fleshy, easier to kill than our metal / stone titan-forged ancestors and more vulnerable to the Old Gods' corruption that them. However, that's all it does. There is no CoF-affected being that are born feel "pain and suffering" because of it. Additionally, unexpectedly to Yogg, the Keepers and other titan-forged back then, it also gave raise to our "mortal qualities of necessities" - courage, resolve and heroism. All in all, judging by the current result, it turned out pretty well for us.

The curse of flesh would gradually transform many of these infected servants into mortal beings of flesh and blood - beings who the cunning Old God knew could easily be killed. <...> Just as Yogg-Saron hoped, the curse of flesh would weaken the titan-forged. But it would also give raise to mortal qualities of necessities that the Old God had never anticipated: courage, resolve and heroism.

I'd like to see a canon source stated that the curse of flesh is bringing pain and suffering to us at the time being, thank you very much. Last time I checked, my alt human had never complained that he is suffering because of his curse of flesh.

In comparison, raising someone into Undeath Sylvanas' way is much worse - to the point it is considered a curse, by both the living and even some of the Forsaken even (i.e: Voss). Since I was mentioned this in another thread few days ago - it was stated in the Forsaken's description on the old battle net site (you can still find it using the wayback machine or recorded in Wowpedia): "Some of the Forsaken feel that their undeath is an illness or curse and long for a cure, but many think it is impossible to attain one" and in the new battle net site here that "Yet for Sylvanas and her cursed followers, the Undercity has become a much-needed refuge in a world where her kind is still feared and hunted".

In particular - being a Forsaken means you cannot contact with the Holy Light without feeling extremely painful. They are also driven by typical traits of the undeath similar to the Scourge - being hostile with the livings and hunger for their flesh. Over time, eventually they would devolve into an irreversible mindless state (which, judging by the fact that it is already approaching / approached some Forsaken NPCs in-game, doesn't seem to take anywhere near as long as a normal human lifetime). They are also not too welcomed by some (but not all) other races - ranging from neutral to hostile, with some groups even hunt them down, making the world a place where they are "feared and hunted". I haven't even counted objective things like appearances, the maggots, inability to procreate naturally.

So tell me, how is human reproduction not better? While Sylvanas' other actions can be morally ambiguous, raising people into undeath without getting permission is pretty much a bad thing. No, I'm not judging it by just human standard, I'm judging it by the living (clear majority of Azeroth population)'s standard - even including "some" of the Forsaken, too.

[Aucald]

The Curse of Flesh is both a literal blessing and a curse - not quite the intention of the Old Gods, but it served their immediate purposes. While it separated and distanced the Titanforged races from their original imperatives (they seemed to function almost like automatons, bereft of will when the Keepers attentions weren't upon them), it also gave rise to positive qualities arising from newfound self-awareness. I think Algalon puts it best: "Perhaps it is your imperfections... that which grants you free will... that allows you to persevere against all cosmically calculated odds. You prevail where the Titan's own perfect creations have failed." In freeing the Titanforged from the mandates of the Keepers the Old Gods unexpectedly gave rise to something with far greater potential than it previously had.

[Magnagarde]

Sylvanas has been saying this alot since cataclysm and says she's fighting for the forsaken, but now it seems like she's just fighting for herself.

It is not just "now" that she is fighting for herself. She is fighting for herself and herself only ever since she jumped off of Icecrown Citadel.

[Aquamonkey]

I'd like to see a canon source stated that the curse of flesh is bringing pain and suffering to us at the time being, thank you very much. Last time I checked, my alt human had never complained that he is suffering because of his curse of flesh.

"With flesh came the other curses of mortality: pride and greed, fear and anger. No longer united in purpose, the mogu fought amongst themselves."

[zephid]

I personally want Sylvanas and the forsaken to almost be as bad as the bad guys in WoW. I like to have the option of not playing a "good" race/faction.

[Zandalariprelate]

Which is silly because it was stated in some book or something that all undead go to hell basically. I dunno though it's been a while. Could be wrong.

Never is mentiont that, just are souls without rest and with a light or holy item you can free them. As for sylvanas i really like a leader without fear to get hands dirty but also is not some sadistic person, I would like Jaina can become more similar to the legion sylvanas neither a good or evil character, just a grey person who do which is right by her people but just when the situation demands it

[Qualia]

"With flesh came the other curses of mortality: pride and greed, fear and anger. No longer united in purpose, the mogu fought amongst themselves."

But those aren't pain and suffering. Claiming it (CoF) brings pain and suffering is like saying having emotion brings pain and suffering.

[Shadowspire]

I love how everyone keeps saying she's secretly evil, just hoping she's worse then she is.

If you guys remove the alliance from fighting her, what has she done?

She took back the plaqulands, lands that belonged to the foresaken cause it's lordearon. She found a way to keep her ppl remaining, since they can't procreate.
She tried to use a race, who constantly attacked both horde and alliance in the last God to continued on.

She's not garrosh who lies to us or hides intentions, she's often pretty much flat out with it, she wants to keep the foresaken alive, both because she sees them as people after the vision bit also, yes as a army's should she be threatened (which pretty much tends to often threaten the foresaken anyway)

You ppl act like sylvanas is evil, but just remember her shirt novel, the alliance illingly genocide the foresaken even after the year win lordearon back.

Yes sylvanas is a bitch with her personality, but she's a honest bitch.

[chase_the_mofo]

Why do people hate Yrel?
She's a fawkin paladin, ofc they are all righteous bastards but Sylvanas, i love her gtfo

[Shadowspire]

Why do people hate Yrel?
She's a fawkin paladin, ofc they are all righteous bastards but Sylvanas, i love her gtfo

I hate yrel because of what the community made blizz do.
She couldn't be maraads wife and had to be this awesome stand alone chick who didn't need no man, thus Maraad was killed. Idc about her voice or whatever, she was a paladin ibefore we find her she was finishing her skills as we fought , which was months. In dreanor. And even then she had to face maraad 2v1(player helps her) so it's not like she suddenly became powerful. The only issue with her is that Maraad and Au Velen had to die to raise her up.

[Qualia]

That's because they don't know any better. They were born with their curse whereas Forsaken remember their old existence.

Thank you for the link.

The link, as I said, didn't say that the curse of flesh bring with it pain and suffering. It bring emotions - both positive and negative ones. However, any pain, suffering, or happiness were products of individuals' actions. Claming that the curse of flesh bring with it pain and suffering is like saying having emotions, or free wills bring pain and suffering - no, they don't. It's the individual's actions bring those result, not the curse of flesh itself.

Additionally, human "don't know any better" would make the curse of flesh better than the undeath plague / curse. Unlike undeads, the Curse of Flesh-affected beings (humans, dwarves, gnomes, plus some other races) are born in a blank state, already fleshy. There is no negative feeling in being affected by it - we don't know how it is being a machine-like type of being, after all (or as you said, "don't know any better"). On the other hand, since the undeath can't reproduce naturally, they / Sylvanas has to raise corpses of once-living beings and with that, comes the memories. They'd always realize how bad their states are now compared to when they were still alive. That's why some of the Forsaken consider themselves cursed, some of them killed themselves the moment they realize what they became. Not to mention the raising process isn't even perfect - some undeaths couldn't withstand it and lost their minds completely, and some - while retained their minds - lived in constant fear and confusion (although I guess, on this point, it's fair to argue that there ought to be born-retarded living beings too - that might or might not be better).

So all in all, human reproduction still seem better, no?

[Katie45]

I love how everyone keeps saying she's secretly evil, just hoping she's worse then she is.

If you guys remove the alliance from fighting her, what has she done?

She took back the plaqulands, lands that belonged to the foresaken cause it's lordearon. She found a way to keep her ppl remaining, since they can't procreate.
She tried to use a race, who constantly attacked both horde and alliance in the last God to continued on.

She's not garrosh who lies to us or hides intentions, she's often pretty much flat out with it, she wants to keep the foresaken alive, both because she sees them as people after the vision bit also, yes as a army's should she be threatened (which pretty much tends to often threaten the foresaken anyway)

You ppl act like sylvanas is evil, but just remember her shirt novel, the alliance illingly genocide the foresaken even after the year win lordearon back.

Yes sylvanas is a bitch with her personality, but she's a honest bitch.

She attacked odyns forces, you know the guy with the army meant to fight the legion.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She attacked odyns forces, you know the guy with the army meant to fight the legion.

To be fair Odyns forces can't leave the halls of valor. It's why we end up killings helya.

[Mehrunes]

One's heritage and birth aren't a choice in any case, so not really an applicable comparison. But I think of it this way: Sylvanas knows exactly what undeath entails. She remembers the feelings of violation and essential wrongness as she was turned into a banshee, and the sense of lingering corruption that remains with her still. She's seen (via the Val'kyr) exactly what happened to her from an external point of view, that she was ripped from a pleasant afterlife and condemned to existence as a colorless imitation of what she once was. With all those things in mind, the question one would ask is "why would anyone sane even offer this as a choice, and who would ever accept it?" The answer seems to be that they don't - the thing is done and then the choice offered, and this is often after the period of rage and disorientation newly-raised undead experience. The choice is largely an illusion to mask the unpleasantness of the reality.

One's birth not being a choice was kinda, you know, the point. And Arthas basically soul raped her because she pissed him off. Ending of Silverpine says completely different tune about her resurrection by the Val'kyr. It's also not known why Sylvanas was sent where she was, but it's not the fate of all undead. And again, how the hell is the Forsaken offering a choice prior to the resurrection supposed to work? As for who would ever accept it, plenty of new recruits since Cata, take your pick. The bit about rage is misrepresenting Word of God.

As a rarity, the general rule of thumb in the Warcraft universe appears to be violent death in combat.

The general rule of thumb with the new Forsaken is that Sylvanas put Lordaeron's old graveyards to good use. We saw only one case of the rage issue appearing.

Who died to the Scourge in a variety of horrible and terrible ways, probably at the hands of loved ones already converted by the Plague?

What's with people thinking Lordaeron was created only recently? And this is yet another misrepresentation of the Ask a CDev answer. For the rage issue to appear the person killed in a violent manner have to be resurrected shortly after that. Besides, again, Scourge and resurrection are kinda intertwined. Why would the victims of the Scourge still be dead a decade after TFT?