Blizzard is a game developer, not a licensed medical professional.

[SirCowdog]

No, you are invoking a fallacy by making a big issue of something extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely.

Extremely? There is a known tank and healer shortage. If you are a DPS there is ZERO guarantee that a tank or healer will pick your group over others. You can increase the likelihood of attracting a tank or healer by listing your group as being 1337 or something, but even then there's still no way to control another player and guarantee a run. And god help you if you're a dps class that the community currently views as sub-optimal.

Am I saying guarantee enough? Do you want me to post the definition?

You can't sit here and try to tell us that it's not a problem. It's one of the distinct advantages the matchmaking system has over LFG. And if a tank or healer leaves your group it gets you another, often quickly.

All LFG really does is act as a manual LFD system with only slightly more control over group composition, at the cost of the inability to do anything other than stare at the tool. You're still playing with randoms. You're still extremely unlikely to ever see the same group again.

This idea that matchmaking automatically leads to bad groups and nerfed content is wrong. The idea that forming your own group solves all problems and automatically fosters a better community is likewise false.

[bufferunderrun]

Extremely? There is a known tank and healer shortage. If you are a DPS there is ZERO guarantee that a tank or healer will pick your group over others. You can increase the likelihood of attracting a tank or healer by listing your group as being 1337 or something, but even then there's still no way to control another player and guarantee a run. And god help you if you're a dps class that the community currently views as sub-optimal.

Am I saying guarantee enough? Do you want me to post the definition?

You can't sit here and try to tell us that it's not a problem. It's one of the distinct advantages the matchmaking system has over LFG. And if a tank or healer leaves your group it gets you another, often quickly.

All LFG really does is act as a manual LFD system with only slightly more control over group composition, at the cost of the inability to do anything other than stare at the tool. You're still playing with randoms. You're still extremely unlikely to ever see the same group again.

This idea that matchmaking automatically leads to bad groups and needed content is wrong. The idea that forming your own group solves all problems and automatically fosters a better community is likewise false.

agree, what peoples really hate about the auto system is the inability to impose their will over the other, so they may often get grouped with peoples who aren't up their standard, i wonder how many of those shitty groups assembled by lfg/lfr are really shitty or is simply a butthurt fit coming from being grouped with a "non fotm spec/class" or because the entire party don't overgear the instance by 50 ilvl.

[SirCowdog]

agree, what peoples really hate about the auto system is the inability to impose their will over the other, so they may often get grouped with peoples who aren't up their standard, i wonder how many of those shitty groups assembled by lfg/lfr are really shitty or is simply a butthurt fit coming from being grouped with a "non fotm spec/class" or because the entire party don't overgear the instance by 50 ilvl.

That's another aspect, of course. The main difference is that in LFG you can list your desire for an overgeared carry up front. And I don't have any problem with that at all.

What I DO take issue with is withholding access to content from the matchmaking system on false premise.

If Blizzard wants to create or encourage a better community, they need to provide tools to do so. Better systems of tracking good players. More penalties for toxic behavior. Other games do this.

One of my favorite examples is DOTA2's low priority queue system. You get reported too any times , or leave too many groups early, and you get flagged as low priority. You can then only matchmake with other low priority people. It doesn't stop you from playing. It has zero effect on making or joining your own group. And all you have to do to get out of low priority is complete games without being a jerk.

But rather than improve the community by promoting good play and punishing toxic behavior, Blizzard would rather just take convenience away from legitimate players. It's stupid.

[Deleted]

TBF I don't do Mythics because I find the process just more inconvenient (manually forming and having to run to the portal [because people cba using summoning stone in my experience)

[TITAN308]

TBF I don't do Mythics because I find the process just more inconvenient (manually forming and having to run to the portal [because people cba using summoning stone in my experience)

So your only argument is laziness?

I mean I know the definition of inconvenient, but I think people are stretching that term to its limits.

If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to put 5 people together or even fly to the zone entrance, why should anyone bother grouping with you?

Edit; If you aren't complaining about how you should be allowed to do mythics, then disregard, more power to you.

[Sansnom]

So your only argument is laziness?

I mean I know the definition of inconvenient, but I think people are stretching that term to its limits.

If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to put 5 people together or even fly to the zone entrance, why should anyone bother grouping with you?

This is not new. It happens during TBC when groups were formed, there were people asking for summon. Sometime all of them. This was for raids and dungeons.

[TITAN308]

Blizzard probably can't help you with your anger issues either...

I guess the difference is, I don't expect Blizzard to.

Ba-Dum-Tsss!

Hulk Smash?

[Deleted]

So your only argument is laziness?

I mean I know the definition of inconvenient, but I think people are stretching that term to its limits.

If you can't be bothered to put in the effort to put 5 people together or even fly to the zone entrance, why should anyone bother grouping with you?

Edit; If you aren't complaining about how you should be allowed to do mythics, then disregard, more power to you.

I don't really care for Mythic period but I would definitely queue up if it was more convenient

[SirCowdog]

So your only argument is laziness?

Here's the difference:

LFG) Deal with staring at the LFG screen just to make a group, slogging over to wherever the entrance is, then screwing around with the summoning stone while you wait for one other person to get off their ass and help you summon.

LFD) Turn on the queue and go about your business playing the game.


Not wanting to deal with LFG isn't being lazy. It's not wanting to deal with an unnecessary hassle.

[Senistian]

Here's the difference:

LFG) Deal with staring at the LFG screen just to make a group, slogging over to wherever the entrance is, then screwing around with the summoning stone while you wait for one other person to get off their ass and help you summon.

LFD) Turn on the queue and go about your business playing the game.


Not wanting to deal with LFG isn't being lazy. It's not wanting to deal with an unnecessary hassle.

So you play an MMORPG and its a hassle to do a dungeon if you can't just magically be placed in with other people? This is what the OP is talking about. Its like if it isn't handed to me on a platter with no effort its a hassle.

[Slicer299]

Your argument would make sense if the game didn't already have half of its content able to be auto queued at the push of a button

Skirms, BGs, LFR, HCs, Normals, Seasonal bosses that is.

There are good arguments for why mythic+ shouldn't be queueable , but I think normal raid and mythic 0 should be queueable. They're trivially easy and are filled with people wanting boosted in 820 gear asking for 860 players to clear content that drops 850 loot.

That said, i'm not one of these people that really has a problem with joining pugs or making groups, even if I do have social anxiety.

- - - Updated - - -



this isn't really relevant at all

most of the people 'moaning' about not being able to queue to everything are the casuals that log on for a 'cheeky game of warcraft' in the space between when they need to pick up the kids and when the wife comes home. Its not the guy who plays 80 hours a week.

This post is early in the thread, but the point I highlighted is a point I see repeated all over the place. Yet it's a point that actually hurts the argument for the people who make it. All of those things are the easiest version for their respective content. Skirmishes are not real Arenas, Random BGs are not Rated BGs, LFR is not Normal/Heroic/Mythic raiding, Normal/Heroic Dungeons are not Mythic Dungeons. The season boss stuff is irrelavent.

And it ignores the fact that WoW flourished at a time when that tool did not even exist. We didn't get the dungeon finder until 3.3, well into the WotLK expansion. People functioned in this game for years without a tool to automatically form groups for them, and it's done nothing but make people lazy ever since.

[Ishayu]

Extremely? There is a known tank and healer shortage. If you are a DPS there is ZERO guarantee that a tank or healer will pick your group over others. You can increase the likelihood of attracting a tank or healer by listing your group as being 1337 or something, but even then there's still no way to control another player and guarantee a run. And god help you if you're a dps class that the community currently views as sub-optimal.

Am I saying guarantee enough? Do you want me to post the definition?

I know what a guarantee is but I do not consider it relevant at all. You do not deserve a guarantee to other players - you deserve a fair shot. You also do not need a guarantee. All you need is a likelyhood that is so high that the alternative is not worth considering. LFD can't guarantee you anything either. Sometimes there literally just aren't enough tanks at all, and you'll wait for hours and hours and hours until you have to go.

Is it technically possible that tanks will skip your group literally forever? Sure. Will it happen to you? Almost certainly not.

Tanks, like other players, come in many shapes and sizes, with many desires in the game and many different wishes for how far they want to go to get the perfect group. Just because tanks are few in number does not mean they will all pore over the LFD screen for several minutes trying to find the perfect group.

As an anecdote, I recently opened a single DPS group with an 811 alt mage I have. That's about as undesirable as you can imagine. And yet it filled in 5 minutes and it was a great run. I could probably do it again. You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

You can't sit here and try to tell us that it's not a problem. It's one of the distinct advantages the matchmaking system has over LFG. And if a tank or healer leaves your group it gets you another, often quickly.

Yes, matchmaking does indeed have the advantage of finding players for you whether they like you or not or whether you like them or not. It can certainly find you a group, but it gives no guarantee of the quality of that group at all. It cannot by its very nature.

All LFG really does is act as a manual LFD system with only slightly more control over group composition, at the cost of the inability to do anything other than stare at the tool. You're still playing with randoms. You're still extremely unlikely to ever see the same group again.

Slightly more? You have 100% full control. The system is a thin coat of paint over announcing in trade and whispering, as well as a button that allows you to /invite. That's it. The group creator is the group leader. He can kick anyone he wants, change anything he wants, create the group, disband the group, invite at his leisure, ask for armory profiles, vet members, and all the rest of it.

It is fundamentally different to LFG/LFR in every way. In fact, WoW had a system exactly like it before the current iteration that was added in vanilla - the only difference was that it was serverwide, and now it regionwide.

This idea that matchmaking automatically leads to bad groups and nerfed content is wrong. The idea that forming your own group solves all problems and automatically fosters a better community is likewise false.

Absolutely not wrong at all. Matchmaking can NEVER give you the control you need to create a group strong enough to take on challenging content. Maybe you'll be lucky, but the harder the content becomes, the less likely this scenario is.

Because you have no control over the group and because the content is hard, you'll find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place. One the one hand, the group sucks and can't do the content. On the other, the system has locked you into that group and will punish you for leaving. Consequently, there is no way you can clear the content. You can't alter the setup and you can't do the content with the setup.

The most frustrating experience you can have in a game is when you're defeated through no fault of your own and there is absolutely nothing you can do or could have done about it - unless it's a game among friends who will be nice and no blame will be assigned and no names will be called, which LFD/LFR precisely is not.

[Zen-]

The problem here is that many people, after a decade of playing, simply are either bored of the game or don't enjoy the game anymore. They feel that they have invested so much time and money into the game, however, that they don't think quitting is an option. Simply put, they are severely addicted. So instead of quitting, or taking breaks, they rush to the forums to complain. They complain to guildmates. They curse at blizzard for stupidly small things that they dislike about the game rather than realize maybe they have outgrown the game/moved on. They continue to play a game they dislike, rather than finding another hobby, game, etc.

The amount of people that actually provide constructive feedback is pretty minimal.

[TITAN308]

The "effort" part is playing through the damn content and overcoming whatever challenges are there. Not messing with the group finder and shit. If I'm going to be playing a game, I want to play the game. I don't wanna deal with a hour and a half of setup and watching the UI before I even get to play. Would anyone put up with that in any other game?

I dunno about you, but when I would pug a mythic I would just run my WQ's while waiting for the group to form or applicants to sign up.

I'm not sure where you got this idea that the two are mutually exclusive.

[Snuffleupagus]

I dunno about you, but when I would pug a mythic I would just run my WQ's while waiting for the group to form or applicants to sign up.

I'm not sure where you got this idea that the two are mutually exclusive.

So.this is where I think an overhaul to the UI for LFG needs to happen.

DPS should be able to list themselves for x type of content and specific dungeons and automatically pop up in the list for group leaders. Doesn't affect me since I tank almost exclusively, but using LFG and signing up to lots of groups while not being able to get a lot done in between must be fairly annoying.

Leaders already have to power to say no, just let DPS queue up to be accepted into preformed groups.

I have to stress that this is still not random matchmaking, just removing the need for players to sit there spamming "Join Group". On the flip side, more information should be presented on the group that invites you so that you know what you're getting into.

[Kul Tiras]

Everyone claims they're pre-BC lords or BC lords but it's so easy to spot the liars or those who were lazy in those periods, because they're utterly incapable or unwilling to do the task which was most basic to get anything done in those periods of WoW: form groups manually with other people.

[Auxora]

I haven't seen that many people complaining about having to use lfg. The complaints I've seen have been far more about people complaining about their class/spec being constantly declined in lfg, which is a balance issue and not related to anxiety, etc. And there are a few bad rep specs that would be insanely frustrating to play right now since they would need hours to find a group to take them.

As for lfg I have no problem with it at all. All I ask is that it's in-game which it is, and that we don't have to go externally to third-party group making sites or addons anymore (oQueue or OpenRaid anyone?) like we often had to do until lfg was improved and still is the case in other games like Destiny.

[Belaide]

The problem is, if they put it into LFD then everyone will whine that it's too hard and call for it to be nerfed, the same way heroics had to be nerfed in Cataclysm when they tried to make them actually challenging. This is why Blizzard have deliberately left it out of LFD.

[Deleted]

This topic makes no sense. Why do they not hire what their audience need?

[SirCowdog]

So you play an MMORPG and its a hassle to do a dungeon if you can't just magically be placed in with other people? This is what the OP is talking about. Its like if it isn't handed to me on a platter with no effort its a hassle.

No, it's a hassle when I'm not given a choice in the matter. If you want to go through all the trouble to form your own groups, more power to you. But the moment I get told that my use of the matchmaker is what's ruining the game for everyone else, I call bullshit.

Some people prefer matchmaking, and should be able to form group that way; WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

Some people prefer making their own groups, and should be able to form them that way too. WITH ALL THE PROS AND CONS that entails.

The problem here is trying to claim that one way is inherently better or worse than the other.