This is one of my peeves about DPS now. I'm seeing so many people complain now that they can't get into groups because there ilvl isn't high enough. Thing is ilvl = dmg normally. But back in TBC and Vanilla I could give a rats ass about your DPS. Hell damage meters were shunned in 5 mans all together. It was about how resourceful you were. Could you CC, not pull aggro, defend your teammates when things get ugly if the tank can't. Etc.
Also with threat I found DPS more exciting since the threat of pulling aggro and dying was forever present. Now we just blow our DPS wads as deep as we can. Understand though threat was very problematic also at the time. For example a geared DPS could barely do damage if the tank was either bad or not geared enough.
yeah, i remember those days
http://shadeofaranchant.ytmnd.com/
I definitely did heroic dungeons in dungeon 70s. I wouldn't pug it, but in guild groups they were easily doable. Hell, by the time you were in karazhan gear you should've been working on your SSC attunement which meant you had to clear shattered halls within a time limit.
Modern WoW is infinitely more complex, but the tuning from threat, damage, healing, mana regen, etc. ranged from pathetic to ridiculous with very odd spikes despite the fact the game was simpler.
Simpler =/= Easier
Complex =/= Harder
Think of it as a separate axis on a graph. easy to hard is the x-axis and simple to complex is the y-axis.
no it doesnt, tbc most heroics were easy as long as you were blessed with a class that could CC, shattered halls was the only one problematic, since tank had issues tanking all the archers and casters if you didnt have CCs for them, but shattered halls was one heroic, sure, shadowlab was decently tuned (but easy if you werent ninjapulling half the room) and auchenai crypts were just super annoying for casters especially, but we had facerolls that were farmed for the primal nethers like slave pens, underbog, mechanaar etc. You go ahead and try teeming arcway demon packs or teeming nelths pelter packs without CC (and not overgear it in 870) and then say with a straight face tbc heroics were harder...
Everyone thinks the content they used to do was the hardest ever. Reality check, that's called being a has been. Imo, you're not an expert on hard dungeons unless you've cleared a mythic 15. You don't even have the right to talk if you haven't cleared a 10.
u had to do those dungeons to get into karazan for attunement. I for sure know, because i tanked a shitload of attunement runs for my guild, and for a lot of recruits later on. They were hard but doable in blue gear, wihtout 2 cc classes u often had a few wipes. U think the guys that went into kara first got their key from a gm or what?
I still remember tanking malchezaar the first time, with 3/4 of my gear being dungeon blue. this guy hit like a truck in phase 2, once he chewed through shieldblock, i instantly pressed shieldwall and hoped to survive
- - - Updated - - -
i dont get what your problem is with teeming? i did a +8 teeming + necrotic run this week, in 860 tanking gear. Necrotic is a bitch, and it is not hard, but unfair in some instances. I think, because the bats in blackrock hold that spawn endlessly perma stack it. if it wouldnt be for that (for example those bats dont have bolstering, but they give necrotic debuff) than it would be perfectly doable. but those bats with necrotic are pain in the ass, and cost us like 25 minutes to get through them. Never died so often, but its nothing that can be done with any skill, its just unfair stuff. Probably cheesable if u play with a battle rez class and run trhough, but without cheese this instance is not doable in necrotic.
I am really curious if any group did a sucessful run through the bats on necrotic /teeming combi (without cheesing them).
Last edited by Holofernes; 2016-10-22 at 04:30 AM.
Saying that doesn't make that certain expac more difficult to do. TBC was broken, not hard. Nowadays, it's more balanced, and we should keep it this way.
- - - Updated - - -
Dude, on the PTR for 7.1, I died from some moves for no fucking reason! Infact, we wiped like....26 times before we finally brung em to 50%! AND THAT WAS HALF! Most of the time, we had em at around 90%. We had ilvl 860+s with us. The fuck you mean current wow is a "Slice of cake". AHHAHAHAHAHAA
- - - Updated - - -
I've cleared a mythic 6. But as of now, i'm stuck on mythic+ 8-9. It makes me 45 mins to do 8-9. But hey, in due time, i'll get there
People are so eager to dismiss difficulty because [insert thing] was "easy". But lets compare it with today's mechanics.
Today players need to:
- Smash buttons in perfect rotation. Some classes have rotations, some play whack-a-proc game. That's all there is to it.
- Perform perfect boss dance. Move from stuff, move to stuff. Same as always, but more steps.
That's it. Those players that dismiss BC difficulty because "insert random reason from any post above" are wrong. Current WoW difficulty could also be easily dismissed using similar logic.
BC was hard, but it was also fun. It was both MMO and RPG. Today we have single player game, the only group part is synchronized dancing on bosses on harder modes.
we dont really have issue with teeming outside of some specific packs, but its the most obvious one when one complains how mythic 4 feels like tbc heroic, other affixes can be overcome with execution. but we did get blessed with arcway 10 this week (again) and some of the packs were bonkers, the first pack had 4(!) casters + one melee in it and without CCs it would be pain to get through, then there was another 5 mob pull in the tunnel to Xakal and then at Xakal, there was one caster, the blinking melee and two floating whatevers, that summon the eyes. Ironically, thanks to the fact we had CCs, we manage dto clear trash maybe not optimally, but without wipe, but we werent prepared for Xakal with tyranical, not only did his unavoidable aoe hit for like 1,7M, so everyone had to play without a slightest mistake to not get oneshotted (which wasnt easy, since we couldnt misdirect bats to tank as it would refresh his necrotic), it was really, REALLY hard for our DH to reset stacks on him, since the boss is incredibly fast and we had to resort to our DH double jumping away after some boss cast and when the boss got near him, pala healer had to taunt from the original location and run away on horse before DH stacks dropped and he could retaunt again.
my point is, mythic+ with atleast one suffix are way above tbcs "sap left, sheep right, wait for two sunders" tbc style
It was hard because the classes and specs were less powerful on a personal level. That and they were generally pretty niche. As time went on, more specs became capable of doing more things, gained more mobility, more specs gained interrupts, cooldowns, self heals, etc. This just homogenized everything. TBC was pre-homogenization, and in general everything hit a lot harder than it has since, and was less forgiving.
The mechanics were simple, but things like tanks having to stance dance to avoid a fear or potentially wiping the group isn't something that exists anymore. There was generally a much bigger impact to mistakes like that. If you pulled aggro, prepare to die. If the tank didn't pick something up right away, you're either going to kite, CC or die. Dungeons don't hurt as much as they used to (outside of mythic+).
Lol, people conveniently forget that they played a hand in making the game how it is today. Look at the legions of autists on these forums that won't join a guild, for instance.
TBC wasn't any more rpg or mmo than the current game. Only real difference was that you were "punished" for solo play before and now you can actually manage to do a decent amount of content alone, which isn't bad by any means, as much as I'm not a fan of complacent world of queuecraft. The main game today, is just like the main game back then; organized PvE.
WQ's are no different from TBC dailies, save they are practically endless. And just like there are people who only do WQ now, there are people who only did dailies back then.
I did bother, with 2 CC (one of them being the shitty random warlock fear), as a warrior tank. You just had to coordinate every trash pull and not have trigger happy dps.
- - - Updated - - -
While you make some good points. And some of the bosses where indeed, a joke. The average guy couldn't even get to endgame content because the Black temple and Mount Hyjal attunements where in the way. Ironicly those 2 raids where a shitload easyer then the previous content, accept for a few bosses. And how many guilds cleared Sunwell Plateau? Bosses had no mechanics?
Did you even raid in early TBC? Or did you clear everything at the end when everything was gimped and everyone outgeared it from Quel'Danas gear?
Last edited by ohlins; 2016-10-22 at 11:29 AM.
Like vanilla, a lot of the difficulty (but less than vanilla, of course) is artificial difficulty that didn't have to do with actual encounter design. Things like attunement, slower gearing rates, there only being one difficulty of raids that would be closest to current mythic raids, etc. It was clunky. WotLK went a huge way in getting rid of a lot of the "clunk", which is why many people say it was easier, when in reality it was just less grindy and less clunky, as WoTLK had quite a few incredibly challenging bosses.
Imagine how few guilds would have killed M Arch for example if:
-Every single applicant to your guild had to have completed mythic Highmaul and mythic BrF.
-Mythic was the only difficulty, you couldn't run multiple difficulties for more loot and learn the bulk of the fight on lower difficulties
-Gearing was not only slower due to one difficulty, but a lot clunkier because of stats like healing power, shadow spell power, fire spell power, resistances etc.
-Random fights would all but require you to drop your main set of gear to make a resist set, or at least grab a couple pieces of it.
Though I will agree in the case of 5 mans, BC's were just harder. And while some of that difficulty came from CC being required at lower gear levels, but you had to know what most boss/trash mobs did. From WoTLK to WoD, 5 mans were mostly just a mindless AoE fest outside of a small blip here and there (HoR in WoTLK, most instances at the beginning of Cata)
And I'm not even mentioning things like the playerbase just improving as a whole due to more experience, or the fact that addons have come a huge way since BC, but its probably a factor.
Exactly. Most of that stuff was done with everyone working together and now people barely want to run stuff within guild or don't even know people in their guild and it's a bit strange.
I run my guild with a very old school feel in the sense that we run stuff together all the time and guild members are always asked first, we don't takenougs on our raids and we don't pug raids on off days. Guild loyalty is at an all time low and I think I found a handful of people willing to stick with that method and it's working so far.
Thank god the game evolved for the better