Why do casuals need gear?

[Gandrake]

Yeah, why do casuals need gear? Why do we keep coming out with character progression platforms that are just participation trophies for scrub ass players? this game has been dead to me ever since you needed to grind a welfare legendary to be competitive lol

i miss when you could just log in to the game and slay some dragons

[purebalance]

It only devalues the reward if your ego is based around it.

Normal people give no fucks.

No that's just more resentful re-re speak there honestly. There is no such thing as a special snowflake, only resentful re-res.

"amg that's so cool, but <I'm too bad to do anything of value in the game>OMG YOU'RE JUST A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE LORDING OVER ME WITH YOUR THINGS"

You guys are the ones with the ego problems buddy. Ego problems and entitlement.

[kary]

I'm sorry you don't think MC or BWL were a thing.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eldon/advanced

Let me rephrase so you understand.
You calling yourself hardcore raider and being in a mix of T1 and early T2 is laughable.
That's like clearing highmaul normal and saying you raided hardcore for all of WoD.

[Himora]

Because this game is all about chasing the carrot for that stat upgrade, nothing more.

[Krastyn]

Let me rephrase so you understand.
You calling yourself hardcore raider and being in a mix of T1 and early T2 is laughable.
That's like clearing highmaul normal and saying you raided hardcore for all of WoD.

Did I say I raided for years? I said I was a hardcore raider. While doing that I also reached Commander in PvP. Hard to go higher while doing both. Considering the minuscule portion of people that did T3, thats a big part of vanilla. Been there, done that. Was I in a top 100 guild in the world? No. But if you only care about the top 5,000 people out of a few million, you're in the wrong place for a discussion.

I stopped because the vast majority of my friends are not hardcore. So I play with them now. I find it more enjoyable do a variety of things with a variety of people than run the same thing multiple nights a week for months at a time. To each their own.

But this is all a sidetrack to the question at hand.

I'll ask you (and anyone who seriously wonders why casuals need gear) a question.

Why does gear exist at all?

Hardcore raiders shouldn't need gear. You should just zone into the instance at a set power level and then you kill all the bosses. Next tier, same thing. No loot needed. Encounters can be tuned such that difficulty is maintained, and if you can't beat it I guess you aren't hardcore enough. Or over time they can add raid wide buffs.

[kary]

Did I say I raided for years? I said I was a hardcore raider. While doing that I also reached Commander in PvP. Hard to go higher while doing both. Considering the minuscule portion of people that did T3, thats a big part of vanilla. Been there, done that. Was I in a top 100 guild in the world? No. But if you only care about the top 5,000 people out of a few million, you're in the wrong place for a discussion.

I stopped because the vast majority of my friends are not hardcore. So I play with them now. I find it more enjoyable do a variety of things with a variety of people than run the same thing multiple nights a week for months at a time. To each their own.

But this is all a sidetrack to the question at hand.

I'll ask you (and anyone who seriously wonders why casuals need gear) a question.

Why does gear exist at all?

Hardcore raiders shouldn't need gear. You should just zone into the instance at a set power level and then you kill all the bosses. Next tier, same thing. No loot needed. Encounters can be tuned such that difficulty is maintained, and if you can't beat it I guess you aren't hardcore enough. Or over time they can add raid wide buffs.

Spoken like a tilted casual in a horrible guild.
Anyway, my warlock's hardcore mythic + guild is recruiting. We just got our first keystone so it's pretty serious. You should join, sounds right up your alley.

[Krastyn]

Spoken like a tilted casual in a horrible guild.
Anyway, my warlock's hardcore mythic + guild is recruiting. We just got our first keystone so it's pretty serious. You should join, sounds right up your alley.

Avoids questions, backs up their statements with nothing. Glad to ignore you from here on out.

[kary]

Because your "hardcore raiders shouldn't need gear" bullshit question has been asked several times throughout this entire thread.
You want me to stop and answer your dumb question every third page? Lmao.

Anyway, I'm just glad that you actually have to do content to get rewards.

[Snuffleupagus]

At the end of the day, bad casuals scream out for the same rewards that raiders get because they don't like that other people have both their rewards (you know, the super easy ones that anyone can get) and rewards for raiding/organised PVE. It's pathetic. Casuals who aren't terrible at the game and have some form of social skills (which is needed for an MMO based on D&D principles) are quietly getting higher and higher in Mythic+ and doing the various achievements and grinds that the game has to offer - it just takes longer.

From a PVE only perspective:
805 Normal
820 Heroic
835 LFR <-- This is where progression stops when you are too terrible for organised group content.
850 Mythic Dungeon <-- This is pretty much where actual time starved progression stops.
850+ Normal Raid
865 Heroic Raid <-- Casual progression stops here
880 Mythic Raid <-- Hardcore progression sits here

In this tier, you cap out at 850 if you are either legit strapped for time (in which case you would take a while to get there) or just plain terrible at the game (in which case you've rushed to 840-850 and find that people won't carry your sorry ass).

The great irony in most of the casual posts is that you are mostly massive hypocrites. Why do raiders care what casuals get? You mean the way you see raiders getting gear and want the same thing? Instead of asking for more quests or other avenues of progression, it's immediately gear.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

Let me rephrase so you understand.
You calling yourself hardcore raider and being in a mix of T1 and early T2 is laughable.
That's like clearing highmaul normal and saying you raided hardcore for all of WoD.

Didn't raiding back then take a massive amount of time so by comparison it was pretty hardcore back than and now.

- - - Updated - - -

At the end of the day, bad casuals scream out for the same rewards that raiders get because they don't like that other people have both their rewards (you know, the super easy ones that anyone can get) and rewards for raiding/organised PVE. It's pathetic. Casuals who aren't terrible at the game and have some form of social skills (which is needed for an MMO based on D&D principles) are quietly getting higher and higher in Mythic+ and doing the various achievements and grinds that the game has to offer - it just takes longer.

From a PVE only perspective:
805 Normal
820 Heroic
835 LFR <-- This is where progression stops when you are too terrible for organised group content.
850 Mythic Dungeon <-- This is pretty much where actual time starved progression stops.
850+ Normal Raid
865 Heroic Raid <-- Casual progression stops here
880 Mythic Raid <-- Hardcore progression sits here

In this tier, you cap out at 850 if you are either legit strapped for time (in which case you would take a while to get there) or just plain terrible at the game (in which case you've rushed to 840-850 and find that people won't carry your sorry ass).

The great irony in most of the casual posts is that you are mostly massive hypocrites. Why do raiders care what casuals get? You mean the way you see raiders getting gear and want the same thing? Instead of asking for more quests or other avenues of progression, it's immediately gear.

They get mad because gear is the main source of character power in the game and they allowed raid level gear from dungeons why not world quest? They just need a scaling mechanic and win lose conditions that are hard because not everyone likes instances content and shoehorning them into that content while making theirs super easy and linear gear power wise is a problem. Just make a scaling world next expansion one with keystone that increase difficult or add mechanics like that.

It would make sense because the world is every changing so why not make Warcraft more dynamic in the difficulty department. If they complain about the difficulty and having nothing to do then add randomize quest and fringe retards complain about stupid shit all the time. there is no reason to go on a ego trip and start "da dumb casual" rant.

Gear rewards cutting off outside of instances content is a valid complaint but the don't make the solution easy.

They could have effects like armor reduction, improve mob agro radius, one shot mechanics, increased health, and allowing mobs to be effected by debuffs so you have to kite them.

[Deleted]

nobody needs gear.

-raids could be tuned better if they used gear templates similar to pvp. playing field would be more even too for world first and server first races.
-scaling tech is ready for multiple difficulties at the same ilvl.
-the last few bosses of a raid don't need to drop (player power increasing) loot if the argument is you need loot for progression.

everybody needs rewards though, people quit once rewards end. player power just happens to be very rewarding for most people.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

There's no way to make extremely hard keystone like content in the world... you CANNOT balance it. Look at withered army training and tanks. Or just think about, you're trying out you level 10 keystone on some world boss, and a newly geared 110 comes over and joins you, world boss health and damage doubles, you fail. The idea that they can build hard world content is a total myth.

Blizzard could make a stone that requires completing all of the current quest as a reward and players could use that stone to access a cross realm that only accessible to other players who have the stone. The use of the stone would be limited by item level though. Dark Souls is harder than most dungeons in World of Warcraft and that's a solo game. It's easier than raiding but much hard than everything else honestly.

The stone could be used to bump up the difficult of the area but only be accessible to players with the stone. If someone trolling they can add a vote kick system or just temporarily ban trolls from using it. They could use the report system to get and monitor the players trollnig or access their chat or combat logs. If someone gets report to many times ban the use of their stone until the next major patch and they just continue to troll ban the stone until the next expansion.

They could make mobs kite able and make them vulnerable to crowd control but in exchange give the increased movements speed, damage, and really power debuffs like removing all your armor. They could also adds increase agro radius and mobs that do magic damage and refresh the debuff requiring they player kill them and then swap back to the original target.

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

And then to eliminate the chances of people cheesing the encounter with too many people they could limit it to a few people in the zone, say 5 or 10, even 20. Encourage people to group up in order to overcome encounters that need different specializations like tanking and healing.

Maybe call the 5 man zones dungeons, and the 20 man ones raids.

My point is not that it's impossible to make hard solo content generally, it's that this game is designed around group content. You have specs like healers that don't really make sense in the solo world, and wildly imbalanced outcomes depending on what class you play, because this game isn't designed for it. I think asking them to balance world and raid content for all classes is simply too much.

They had a system in place in Vanilla were world boss would go immune and rape everyone if to many people attack it and I think that could be used to stop cheesing. If to many players attack the mob give it infinite health regeneration until the extra player leaves combat or they could just scale the mob based on the number of players attacking it. They could make the encounters doable without healing because everyone has self healing now.

The game is designed for hard solo content when blizzard wants to deliver it and they having during past expansions. They had a solo quest for hunters in Vanilla that was hard and the green fire quest was challenging. They can make hard solo content when the need arises. You don't quest as a healing spec so why would they design these encounters with that in mind. It would be challenging but they have proven to be capable of it in the past when they're in the mood.

[Bad Management]

That answer is simple:
They're spoiled brats.
"buhu I paid for it, I should get the whole experience without any effort"
These are the same people that cheat in solo-player games etc.

They are the scum of gaming, and sadly outnumber gamers who actually want to play the game, and invest some time in it.
I call them scum, because they ruin the game(s) for the people who actually play them the way they are supposed to be played.

Now, as the content of this post is 100% true, I know I'm gonna get a lot of shit for it, but ah well, truth always creates butthurts these days.

[kary]

Didn't raiding back then take a massive amount of time so by comparison it was pretty hardcore back than and now.

No, not at all. MC was a 1 night, 2 night at best affair. You would kill a MC boss every 10-30 mins or so, 10 bosses. 3-4 hr raid nights weren't out of the ordinary, and a 8 hr raid week is fairly light, if you want to talk about casual or hardcore.

And, again, for the millionth time, what is a casual, really?.

Claiming to be hardcore and flaking after 3 bosses in BWL and onyxia is well, laughable. Rank 10 wasn't even that deep a grind, because maximizing honor per week only really became a thing when you were trying to get FM>GM(rank 13-14). I have a lot of friends who casually got to rank 12/13 while raiding AQ/Naxx. So it pretty much begs the question, what is hardcore and what is casual? Can you be hardcore and super awful? Hardcore timewasting? Is 8 hours a day playing WoW doing fuckall more or less casual than 2-3 hours of focused group content?

My guild has 2-3 2.5 hour raid nights a week and with that did HFC M. Are we hardcore or casual?

[Varvara Spiros Gelashvili]

No, not at all. MC was a 1 night, 2 night at best affair. You would kill a MC boss every 10-30 mins or so, 10 bosses. 3-4 hr raid nights weren't out of the ordinary, and a 8 hr raid week is fairly light, if you want to talk about casual or hardcore.

And, again, for the millionth time, what is a casual, really?.

Claiming to be hardcore and flaking after 3 bosses in BWL and onyxia is well, laughable. Rank 10 wasn't even that deep a grind, because maximizing honor per week only really became a thing when you were trying to get FM>GM(rank 13-14). I have a lot of friends who casually got to rank 12/13 while raiding AQ/Naxx. So it pretty much begs the question, what is hardcore and what is casual? Can you be hardcore and super awful? Hardcore timewasting? Is 8 hours a day playing WoW doing fuckall more or less casual than 2-3 hours of focused group content?

My guild has 2-3 2.5 hour raid nights a week and with that did HFC M. Are we hardcore or casual?

Alright thank you for the explanation.

[Luko]

We don't need the gear. We just want it. Giving players what they want to an understandable extent = subs.

I really don't see what else there is to debate.

[Snuffleupagus]

Blizzard could make a stone that requires completing all of the current quest as a reward and players could use that stone to access a cross realm that only accessible to other players who have the stone. The use of the stone would be limited by item level though. Dark Souls is harder than most dungeons in World of Warcraft and that's a solo game. It's easier than raiding but much hard than everything else honestly.

The stone could be used to bump up the difficult of the area but only be accessible to players with the stone. If someone trolling they can add a vote kick system or just temporarily ban trolls from using it. They could use the report system to get and monitor the players trollnig or access their chat or combat logs. If someone gets report to many times ban the use of their stone until the next major patch and they just continue to troll ban the stone until the next expansion.

They could make mobs kite able and make them vulnerable to crowd control but in exchange give the increased movements speed, damage, and really power debuffs like removing all your armor. They could also adds increase agro radius and mobs that do magic damage and refresh the debuff requiring they player kill them and then swap back to the original target.

And the minute you create that kind of content, it is functionally no different to a dungeon.

Thanks, but no thanks.

- - - Updated - - -

We don't need the gear. We just want it. Giving players what they want to an understandable extent = subs.

I really don't see what else there is to debate.

At least you're honest.

[darklogrus]

At the end of the day, bad casuals scream out for the same rewards that raiders get because they don't like that other people have both their rewards (you know, the super easy ones that anyone can get) and rewards for raiding/organised PVE. It's pathetic. Casuals who aren't terrible at the game and have some form of social skills (which is needed for an MMO based on D&D principles) are quietly getting higher and higher in Mythic+ and doing the various achievements and grinds that the game has to offer - it just takes longer.

From a PVE only perspective:
805 Normal
820 Heroic
835 LFR <-- This is where progression stops when you are too terrible for organised group content.
850 Mythic Dungeon <-- This is pretty much where actual time starved progression stops.
850+ Normal Raid
865 Heroic Raid <-- Casual progression stops here
880 Mythic Raid <-- Hardcore progression sits here

In this tier, you cap out at 850 if you are either legit strapped for time (in which case you would take a while to get there) or just plain terrible at the game (in which case you've rushed to 840-850 and find that people won't carry your sorry ass).

The great irony in most of the casual posts is that you are mostly massive hypocrites. Why do raiders care what casuals get? You mean the way you see raiders getting gear and want the same thing? Instead of asking for more quests or other avenues of progression, it's immediately gear.

Please, Raiders have been whining to kill off LFR since Cata. They complained about their own guilds forcing them to run it, complained it had tier gear, had trinkets, had more players running it then the regs. How making LFR worthless would save Wow. Warlords proved its what almost killed Wow.. We can go into how they whined transmogs stole their need to be a special snowflake. Fucks sake, back in Wrath they whined because Raids was accessible to the masses.

[Snuffleupagus]

Please, Raiders have been whining to kill off LFR since Cata. They complained about their own guilds forcing them to run it, complained it had tier gear, had trinkets, had more players running it then the regs. How making LFR worthless would save Wow. Warlords proved its what almost killed Wow.. We can go into how they whined transmogs stole their need to be a special snowflake. Fucks sake, back in Wrath they whined because Raids was accessible to the masses.

And they were wrong to do that. Just like it's wrong to expect gear of a higher ilvl with no effort.

Crafted gear is now 855 I notice, with a bit of effort and no dungeons after getting patterns, you too can be ready for Heroic EN. But people don't want effort. They want 880 gear from picking up nuts and catching squirrels.