Legion is really NOT "RNG"

[Apsychicrat]

Or not.

That's the entire point.

unfortunatly we dont have stats on warforged gear drops but i can guarantee you that the percentage of people with gear thats rolled stupid high is less than 1%, likely less than .1%

are you telling me nothing in life is worth working for if less than 1% of the people in the world luck out and get it the easy way?

thats honestly kinda sad if that is how people feel.

[rda]

So you have to assume Blizzard will provide you with enough roll opportunities as the game progresses to fill out your gear. They always have in the past, and just because the number of rolls you have to get to be optimal is much higher, doesn't mean that it won't scale well with the number of chances you get. See in the past you only have a few chances(raid bosses) now you get many more(4+) a day.

The drop chance is a constant, it does not vary between players. They have to keep it low to avoid having those who'd throw 8 hours per day at the game in the first one-two months from getting everything. That makes the drop chance unapproachably low for all other players who play like 8 hours per week or less. So, some of those players luck out and get the drop they want, while others can't do much about that, even if they spend their entire time farming (and many perhaps do), their chance is still low, because the main constant is super-low (because it is tuned for much larger investments of time, two months of streamer time equals how much regular people will play in the course of the entire expansion). That's it.

[Kezotar]

Wow has always been RNG... ask that Ashes of Alar mount that still did not drop..

Ashes = Cosmetic.
Mounts = Cosmetic.

Legendary items with gamechanging effects = NOT COSMETIC.

[rda]

unfortunatly we dont have stats on warforged gear drops but i can guarantee you that the percentage of people with gear thats rolled stupid high is less than 1%, likely less than .1%

are you telling me nothing in life is worth working for if less than 1% of the people in the world luck out and get it the easy way?

thats honestly kinda sad if that is how people feel.

I am saying that when the chance is so low that I have to farm for months with my play schedule of 15 hours per week to have the cumulative chance be something visible like 20-30%, I am going to seriously question whether I want to farm at all. Because it's easier to just wait until they up the chance like 10x.

[Magical Mudcrab]

Legendaries are not REQUIRED for ANYONE to progress in ANY content whatsoever. They are purely a bonus if people happen to have them. They are not overpowered and not REQUIRED to progress. Period.

You're right, but they are massive boosts to performance that is based on RNG. Saying that it doesn't matter because it's not necessary is inane, the fact of the matter is that it all depends on how the player feels. Most players don't give a rats arse about being in a top guild; however, I don't think it would be incorrect to say that most players do care about how they are performing relative to their peers. Legendary items, being RNG loot drops which includes good and bad drops, negatively impacts this. It's not a system in which you get a legendary and you feel good, it's a system in which you get a legendary and you either feel like you can now compete with your friends who have legendaries, or that you've been cheated because you were unlucky enough to obtain one of the worse legendary items for your class. It's worse than a grind that has a foreseeable end-point, it just feels perpetually futile until you get one of your own.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? If you think there is massive rng in the game, why do you think that way? Why don't you view titanforged and sockets as just a pure bonus?

While I don't have any issues with Warforged, Titanforged, or the sockets/bonus stats, I can see why people have issues with it in that people who do less-difficult content can be similarly rewarded to those who do more difficult content (ie: normal raiders being able to get Titanforged items that are better than heroic, and so on).

[Apsychicrat]

I am saying that when the chance is so low that I have to farm for months with my play schedule of 15 hours per week to have the cumulative chance be something visible like 20-30%, I am going to seriously question whether I want to farm at all. Because it's easier to just wait until they up the chance like 10x.

first off, please put the thought that you need a legendary to enjoy this game in a box, label that box self destructive thinking and put in on the shelf where it belongs.

you want to have fun right? having fun is a)not dieing as a tank b)doing tons of deeps or c)making sure people dont die (even if they are a tad stupid from time to time)

none of those things NEED a legendary to do. those things need higher and higher numbers and thats it. you can guarantee higher numbers by running harder content. so what if some people got the lucky roll. with thos 15 hours (more than i play actually im at about 10 or so) you can clear heroic EN, you can run +7 mythics. and if you keep doing that you can and will out gear luckosaurus rex you seem to hate so much. let them be lucky, you can work hard and beat them instead of standing around in Dal

[Funky Kong]

This is a pretty bad attempt at damage control. Email blizzard your resume and maybe a CM can give you some pointers.

[rda]

first off, please put the thought that you need a legendary to enjoy this game in a box, label that box self destructive thinking and put in on the shelf where it belongs.

you want to have fun right? having fun is a)not dieing as a tank b)doing tons of deeps or c)making sure people dont die (even if they are a tad stupid from time to time)

none of those things NEED a legendary to do. those things need higher and higher numbers and thats it. you can guarantee higher numbers by running harder content. so what if some people got the lucky roll. with thos 15 hours (more than i play actually im at about 10 or so) you can clear heroic EN, you can run +7 mythics. and if you keep doing that you can and will out gear luckosaurus rex you seem to hate so much. let them be lucky, you can work hard and beat them instead of standing around in Dal

Thank you, don't know where I'd be without your advice. Now if you were so kind as to tell others that they should not prefer players with the legendaries to players without them, that would have been so nice. With this tiny matter no doubt settled by the evening, thanks to your intervention, I am logging in clean and free. /sarcasm

[Apsychicrat]

Thank you, don't know where I'd be without your advice. Now if you were so kind as to tell others that they should not prefer players with the legendaries to players without them, that would have been so nice. With this tiny matter no doubt settled by the evening, thanks to your intervention, I am logging in clean and free. /sarcasm

i have not seen a single group in the medivh battle group that cares if you have a legendary. and why does an action that small percentage of the population bother you? getting rejected is life. you dont get the job or the girl or whatever, maybe not the first time, or the second. but again, if you work at something you can do whatever. i play 10 or so hours a week and im halfway through heroic EN and am ilvl 860. i will continue to work at it and improve. i dont understand the mentality of if first i dont succeed guess i just give up.

[Zenfoldor]

The drop chance is a constant, it does not vary between players. They have to keep it low to avoid having those who'd throw 8 hours per day at the game in the first one-two months from getting everything. That makes the drop chance unapproachably low for all other players who play like 8 hours per week or less. So, some of those players luck out and get the drop they want, while others can't do much about that, even if they spend their entire time farming (and many perhaps do), their chance is still low, because the main constant is super-low (because it is tuned for much larger investments of time, two months of streamer time equals how much regular people will play in the course of the entire expansion). That's it.

You are talking about the gambler's fallacy. IE: no matter what, my chances on each individual roll are still the same, no matter what the ones before them. Agreed. However my statement doesn't view each roll as important, nor each chance as affected by other rolls.

If one flips a fair coin 21 times, then the probability of 21 heads is 1 in 2,097,152. As the number of rolls go up, the chance of good or bad luck continuing goes down.

Yes, you are right on your probabilities when you are looking at any individual roll, but probabilities change when instead of looking at the singular roll, you look at the probability of consistently rolling very poorly or very well.

Given enough attempts, the probabilities will declare that it is realistically impossible for something to have occurred. ie: rolling heads 1,000,000 times in a row is nearly impossible, due to a very low probability.

If you assume that this second set of probabilities actually exists, you also understand the very simple concept of the law of large numbers.

The law of large numbers is a principle of probability according to which the frequencies of events with the same likelihood of occurrence even out, given enough trials or instances. As the number of experiments increases, the actual ratio of outcomes will converge on the theoretical, or expected, ratio of outcomes.

It seems as if some on mmo-champ don't even believe in the law of large numbers.

[darklogrus]

i have not seen a single group in the medivh battle group that cares if you have a legendary. and why does an action that small percentage of the population bother you? getting rejected is life. you dont get the job or the girl or whatever, maybe not the first time, or the second. but again, if you work at something you can do whatever. i play 10 or so hours a week and im halfway through heroic EN and am ilvl 860. i will continue to work at it and improve. i dont understand the mentality of if first i dont succeed guess i just give up.

No what they care is if you Dps/Hps matches the other spec similar to yours. The only problem is when their gear is composed of a BIS Legendary an your still in 840 because Rng is fun and exciting! An lets be real, if your grp tries a mythic boss or 2. You will be benched because your Dps is not on par with 2 legendary guy.

So stop pretending..

[Deleted]

Legion is full of rng and its bad.

[blitzbong]

As a mythic raider I find the RNG really fucking annoying. It's incredibly demotivating.

Literally the only purpose for me to do anything right now beside mythic bosses is to do mythic+ with the HOPE that a piece WFs to 880+. If it does and doesn't have the right stats its completely useless anyways.

[munkeyinorbit]

If i need a bonus to push similar numbers compared to other classes without said bonus then somethings fuckin wrong.

Yes there is something wrong. There are many sources where you can go to L2P. Try icy-veins for starter. They are great for the novice player.

[Apsychicrat]

No what they care is if you Dps/Hps matches the other spec similar to yours. The only problem is when their gear is composed of a BIS Legendary an your still in 840 because Rng is fun and exciting! An lets be real, if your grp tries a mythic boss or 2. You will be benched because your Dps is not on par with 2 legendary guy.

So stop pretending..

if your 840 go run some mythic or m+, or normal nightmare, all are perfectly doable with little issue at that level and will have a great chance to get gear. your walls are in your mind not in the game. you shouldnt be complairing yourself to people with similar spec but similar ilvl, and im sure youll find yourself far far closer than you feel like you are.

[darklogrus]

if your 840 go run some mythic or m+, or normal nightmare, all are perfectly doable with little issue at that level and will have a great chance to get gear. your walls are in your mind not in the game. you shouldnt be complairing yourself to people with similar spec but similar ilvl, and im sure youll find yourself far far closer than you feel like you are.

Welcome to the World of RNG. Where you can run Mythic5+ and all you get is a piece of gear thats lower then what you actually are using, completely garbage stats, not a spec you are actually playing, or a piece you actually need. 5 Mythics a week, a Heroic and a Normal EN, its not like im not puttin in the effort or anything lol.

But yeah Legion ZERO Rng like Jaykock thinks, gotcha.

[Apsychicrat]

Welcome to the World of RNG. Where you can run Mythic5+ and all you get is a piece of gear thats lower then what you actually are using, completely garbage stats, not a spec you are actually playing, or a piece you actually need. 5 Mythics a week, a Heroic and a Normal EN, its not like im not puttin in the effort or anything lol.

But yeah Legion ZERO Rng like Jaykock thinks, gotcha.

welcome to the history of MMO's, you talk like thats not always been the case. it has always been that way and i think should remain so. If you got every piece of gear the first time you ran a dungeon you would be bored of the game in a couple weeks.

and do you not enjoy running the dungeons in this game for their own sake? i do! if you dont like the gameplay itself then why are you even playing this game? seems at this point you hand around to complain

[TickTickTick]

K, now im gonna waste my time and quote every argument.

C1) All items from dungeons and raids have a base item level

As long as there is a chance to get it higher, with only variable being if you are lucky or not, its called RNG. IDC about the base ilev, there IS a chance to get it higher, it doesnt matter how it was in past expansions or if you need higher ilev or not. Its still RNG and seriously trying to argue with that is just being stupid at this point.

2) World Quest items ramp up in base power as you gear up (their base ilvl increases as your character ilvl increases)

Again, there is still a change to get warforged/titanforged. There is still a chance to progress your character further - but it is RANDOM chance.

3) Legendaries are NOT REQUIRED to progress in any content, whether its dungeons or raids. (wouldn't you agree that players can still progress in any of the raid content without having any legendaries equipped, no matter how fast or slow they go?)

Nighthold is being tuned with consideration that people HAVE legendaries. Also some of them are HUGE dps increases, as well as huge stats boost (further increased with upgrading your legendary). Saying that legendary isnt required to progress is like saying gear isnt too.

4) If the base item level gear is the expectation when doing the relevant content that drops that gear, wouldn't you say that WF/TF/Sockets/Tierery Stats are just a pure bonus to the base ilvl gear? There is rng to how much of a bonus you are getting, but its negated by the fact that its just a bonus.

Nah, not anymore. As long as its possible to get better gear (higher ilev, wf/tf) its a standard progress of character's strength. I seriously hate the idea of random proccing on gear, cause its a big part of the problem right now. You can call it a bonus, but its nothing different than getting items from new tier. Only that they have the same name, look, and stats combination. Would you call using gear from 7.2 raid over EN/NH a bonus? Something not necessary?

This is essentially all i'm saying. The game isn't any more rng than its ever been. There will always be rng with a particular item dropping from a dungeon or raid boss.

You are essentially wrong. Legendaries didnt drop like they do now. You actually could achieve your bis list and be done with it. When you got your heroic quality chest from raid, you knew you wont replace it until the next tier. Now? You get your item, but maybe next item the same will drop but with 10 ilev more? And then 20? And then with additional socket? This. Is. RNG.

My guild didn't see our first warglaive until 2 months of farming Illidan. So yes, while there is rng with legendaries being acquired in Legion, i would argue the playerbase as a whole benefit from it more so than having particular legendaries drop from particular bosses or locations. Because as people have pointed out, you can receive a legendary from almost any source.

You cant compare past legendaries to the ones we have now. Past legendaries (besides ring/cloak, which were more of a progress than grind) were made for small groups of people. No legendary for your class? No problem. Now? Everyone can grind one, but they have too much of an impact for how little chance to drop they have.

My question to you is, why is this a bad thing? So fucking what if you haven't received a legendary yet? Don't base your expectations on progression on having a legendary. Look at the game holistically and progress based on what you have, not on what you expect to have.

Im very casual and dont raid, even with pugs. Personally idc about legendary, cause the only benefit it would give ME would be easier WQ/legacy content. For competetiveness though, they are a bad thing. And as i said, some of them offer a huge boost to performance and an ilev 725 item after the quest, such a piece should be worked on, not getting lucky for it to drop.

The RNG that is present in this expansion WORKS TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. It helps that there is RNG because you might be doing heroic Emerald Nightmare, and the base item level is 860, but an item could proc up to 895 thus giving you and your team a boost to performance. A great, unexpected bonus. Period.

A great, EXPECTED bonus, cause after getting full base set, people dont stop farming, cause as long as there is an upgrade they dont have bis set. What was wrong with wrath/cata model?

[Jaylock]

This is a pretty bad attempt at damage control. Email blizzard your resume and maybe a CM can give you some pointers.

There's nothing to damage control because the RNG that IS there, isn't bad. Its all a benefit to the players and a bonus.

What, would you rather have a system that all you get is points from killing bosses, and you spend those points on the best gear?

So any mouth breather with massive amounts of time can farm boars, get points and have 895 ilvl mythic raiding gear? Yeah that's not happening. Blizzard won't let that happen to their game. I love how the RNG is in this expansion because its just pure 100% bonus to existing base ilvl gear. Thats it. Period.

- - - Updated - - -

Welcome to the World of RNG. Where you can run Mythic5+ and all you get is a piece of gear thats lower then what you actually are using, completely garbage stats, not a spec you are actually playing, or a piece you actually need. 5 Mythics a week, a Heroic and a Normal EN, its not like im not puttin in the effort or anything lol.

But yeah Legion ZERO Rng like Jaykock thinks, gotcha.

Do higher level content and you will get higher ilvl gear. Or did you forget how MMO gearing works?

[Apsychicrat]

A great, EXPECTED bonus, cause after getting full base set, people dont stop farming, cause as long as there is an upgrade they dont have bis set. What was wrong with wrath/cata model?

I think the only problem with the current system is how people such as yourself behave, EXPEXTING the bonuses, i liked the wrath/cata way, but this way is also good. this way just doesnt have a defined end really and thats not a problem for an MMO, thats only a problem for games you want to stop playing eventually