Heroic Raid difficulty feels a bit too easy

[Accendor]

I know it is the first raid, but currently my raid group has a problem content wise.
We are really not a OP raid group. We are not bad either, but by all means, we are not what you would call a progress guild or something like that.

While WoD was a terrible addon at least the raids were good and took us somewhat "long" to finish. Heroic was one or two new boss kills per week and the final bosses took even longer (e.g. Imperator, Blackhand...). We were basically slow enough that between us finishing a raid tier and the possibility to do mythic cross realm we had ~1 month to farm old content, which was fine.

Now we have the problem that we already finished heroic (and it wasn't even a real challenge) and neither the next raid tier nor the possibility to do mythic in cross realm are somewhere in sight.

For different reasons some of our players come from different realms (and no, transferring is not an option) and we only have around ~14 core players. When we do mythic (like in WoD) we fill that up with some other people from different realms, because we are not able to maintain a constant 20 person rooster on the same realm.

I know we will get Trial of Valor, but this will only be a very short raid, so it doesn't really count. If it has the same difficulty as EN it will be cleated in the first or second week.

And all of this because heroic felt waaaay to easy from start to finish. We killed 4 bosses on the first day of heroic, 1 on the second. Then the week was over, we killed 5 on day 1, 1 on day 2 and went to week 3 with 7 kills on day 1. And again, this was not because we were so OP, it was because it wasas so easy.

Possible solutions from my point of view:
- Make heroic harder (as WoD heroic basically)
- Allow cross realm mythic sooner (1-2 Weeks after the instance was cleared world first)
- Make Mythic scale with raid size (I know Blizzard does not want to this)

What is your exprience with this? Do you have similar issues or is our raid group alone with this problem and everyone else is fine?

[Deleted]

Sure, heroic was too easy if your goal is to be a heroic raider. But sooner or later the challenge in heroics will disappear, in WoD it took a few days/weeks, in legion it took a few hours. But either way, if you want a challenge you have to proceed into mythic imo.

[klaps_05]

Heroic is the old Normal, so its supposed to be easy. The challenge is in Mythic, no need to touch heroic.

[Tech614]

Not sure what kind of revisionist history this is but highmaul heroic wasn't any harder then emerald nightmare heroic. Cleared both week 1 with ease. For that matter Highmaul mythic wasn't that hard either, just a brick wall gear check in butcher that didn't have mythic+ to trivialize like Ursoc did.

Normal I will give you was made far easier then higmaul normal as they flat out removed/trivialized mechanics LFR style for it.

[Nitros14]

Not sure what kind of revisionist history this is but highmaul heroic wasn't any harder then emerald nightmare heroic.

A quick look at wowprogress will tell you there were 753 H Imperator Mar'gok kills first week and 1900 H Xavius kills first week.

I don't think 2.5x more players are raiding in legion, or that players just got a lot better.

Anyone who did Mar'gok and Xavius could tell you Xavius is a pushover and Mar'gok was a hard fight.

[Tech614]

Anyone who did Mar'gok and Xavius could tell you Xavius is a pushover and Mar'gok was a hard fight.

Mar'gok was trivial on heroic, and if he wasn't trivial for you on heroic then Cenarius probably wasn't trivial for you either. Again, cleared both first week they where out, the only major difference being for highmaul you had to spend gold to be geared and didn't have mythic dungeons to trivialize. All those numbers tell me is that people where too broke to have 3 crafted pieces maxed out, and too bad to do their challenge mode daily every day. If you actually did that in the weeks before Highmaul came out it was literally just as trivial. Don't try to bullshit otherwise.

Don't try to compare me some 620 ilvl people fighting Margok to 850 people fighting Xavius and tell me one was harder lmao.

[Nitros14]

Mar'gok was trivial on heroic, and if he wasn't trivial for you on heroic then Cenarius probably wasn't trivial for you either. Again, cleared both first week they where out, the only major difference being for highmaul you had to spend gold to be geared and didn't have mythic dungeons to trivialize. All those numbers tell me is that people where too broke to have 3 crafted pieces maxed out, and too bad to do their challenge mode daily every day. If you actually did that in the weeks before Highmaul came out it was literally just as trivial. Don't try to bullshit otherwise.

That's a bad argument combined with a personal attack and you know it.

It being easier to gear in legion is definitely part of why Emerald Nightmare is easier, but that doesn't change that it's easier. Mar'gok is a much more complex encounter than Xavius, their both being trivial for top end raiders doesn't change that.

Guilds that spent 1-2 months trying to clear Highmaul heroic are done Emerald Nightmare in 2 weeks.

[LongTimeCreeper]

The current Heroic difficulty was the former Normal difficulty (and the new Normal was the former Flex). The difficulty is fine, especially for a 1st tier raid. If you want a harder difficulty, look to Mythic. It is fine the way it is. Heroic is suppose to be easy.

Saying server transfer is not an option is bullshit. Did Blizz disable it for you? Then you are choosing to not use this option.

Possible solutions from my point of view:
- Make heroic harder (as WoD heroic basically)
- Allow cross realm mythic sooner (1-2 Weeks after the instance was cleared world first)
- Make Mythic scale with raid size (I know Blizzard does not want to this)

1 - No, mythics exist. Just because you aren't playing there, doesn't mean something else needs to change.
2 - Sure, realms don't really matter anymore. Not sure what Blizz is trying to do here.
3 - No, it is set at 20 for tuning reasons. If you need the flexibility, you have 3 other difficulties

[Ophenia]

A quick look at wowprogress will tell you there were 753 H Imperator Mar'gok kills first week and 1900 H Xavius kills first week.

I don't think 2.5x more players are raiding in legion, or that players just got a lot better.

Anyone who did Mar'gok and Xavius could tell you Xavius is a pushover and Mar'gok was a hard fight.

I think he compares also taking into account the means you have.

In Legion, you can be full stuff before entering the Hc raids with their Mythic+ Dungeons bullshit. You had a much, much lower relative ilvl when attacking Highmaul.

[alucardtnuoc]

A quick look at wowprogress will tell you there were 753 H Imperator Mar'gok kills first week and 1900 H Xavius kills first week.

I don't think 2.5x more players are raiding in legion, or that players just got a lot better.

Anyone who did Mar'gok and Xavius could tell you Xavius is a pushover and Mar'gok was a hard fight.

It's far easier to gear up than WoD which makes fights a lot easier. However having done both of them, I do agree that xavius seems undertuned.

[tratra]

Ive said that a thousand times, restricting mythic to be not X-realm until new patches is just retarded.

The tech is there for it, its just bluntantly stupid not to.

Yes blizzard and some people will argue that then top guilds will be selling mythic boosting and that will be unfair for guilds that are still progressing etc... Well ye ok find a way to counter it, but don't restrict content. Build your policies against boosting, and maybe make mythic content even harder so top guilds don't clear it in the 1st week? and takes them considerably a lot of time to clear it after they have already killed it, and maybe make the last boss extremely hard so boosting is not an option?

Its just stupid that I can't pug mythic raiding at a day and age where the resources are available and when all games have understood that well there are a lot of skilled players out there that don't have the time to bash on games and can still play top tier. Find a way and make it happen imho.

[Flurryfang]

I know it is the first raid, but currently my raid group has a problem content wise.
We are really not a OP raid group. We are not bad either, but by all means, we are not what you would call a progress guild or something like that.

While WoD was a terrible addon at least the raids were good and took us somewhat "long" to finish. Heroic was one or two new boss kills per week and the final bosses took even longer (e.g. Imperator, Blackhand...). We were basically slow enough that between us finishing a raid tier and the possibility to do mythic cross realm we had ~1 month to farm old content, which was fine.

Now we have the problem that we already finished heroic (and it wasn't even a real challenge) and neither the next raid tier nor the possibility to do mythic in cross realm are somewhere in sight.

For different reasons some of our players come from different realms (and no, transferring is not an option) and we only have around ~14 core players. When we do mythic (like in WoD) we fill that up with some other people from different realms, because we are not able to maintain a constant 20 person rooster on the same realm.

I know we will get Trial of Valor, but this will only be a very short raid, so it doesn't really count. If it has the same difficulty as EN it will be cleated in the first or second week.

And all of this because heroic felt waaaay to easy from start to finish. We killed 4 bosses on the first day of heroic, 1 on the second. Then the week was over, we killed 5 on day 1, 1 on day 2 and went to week 3 with 7 kills on day 1. And again, this was not because we were so OP, it was because it wasas so easy.

Possible solutions from my point of view:
- Make heroic harder (as WoD heroic basically)
- Allow cross realm mythic sooner (1-2 Weeks after the instance was cleared world first)
- Make Mythic scale with raid size (I know Blizzard does not want to this)

What is your exprience with this? Do you have similar issues or is our raid group alone with this problem and everyone else is fine?

Maybe... Just maybe, it is because you have gotten better My raid group, who is a mix of old and new players, are progressing through heroic quite nicely and if we are lucky/good, we might clear EN heroic at the time NH comes out

I think that while EN is easier then for example Higmaul, it is still a good paced raid. The reason why many people did not clear Highmaul as fast, was because it had Imperator, which was a completly misplaced boss, and Tectus because he would be very unforgiving in the end EN work alot better. Many of the bosses are different, yet not extremly harder then each other. Cenarius is a great boss fight, both in theme and challenge. And Xavius was a misstake, Ion Watcher said it himself

So overall, i don't really think that we have to change the entire nature of raiding just because of 1 raid was a bit easier then WoDs first raid I will always be happier with harder content, but i also think that NH will be much more tuned at being a harder instance then EN, so no worries

[Apanonar]

Heroic Highmaul dropped 670, while average pre-raid ilvl was 635.
Heroic Nightmare drops 865, while average pre-raid ilvl was 850.

[Tehterokkar]

Heroic Highmaul dropped 670, while average pre-raid ilvl was 635.
Heroic Nightmare drops 865, while average pre-raid ilvl was 850.

No. People easily had 645 or even 650 gear. Our first Heroic Kargath kill(which was our first boss kill of WoD) was with 640 avg, with some less hardcore people below 640, but also had a few above 650(I had 651.33 according to Wowprogress logs). Heck our Priest healer was 857 iLvl, but that's because he had all the BoEs you could get with money.

Edit: And to put our Legion ilvl into perspective, our first Nythendra Hc split raid avg iLvl was 853.58, with some being 855+ and some 840-845 because they were alts.

[Sencha]

That's why they should remove normal and LFR difficulties and keep 2 difficulties max.

[Apanonar]

No. People easily had 645 or even 650 gear. Our first Heroic Kargath kill(which was our first boss kill of WoD) was with 640 avg, with some less hardcore people below 640, but also had a few above 650(I had 651.33 according to Wowprogress logs). Heck our Priest healer was 857 iLvl, but that's because he had all the BoEs you could get with money.

We had an average of exactly 630. And I consider us an average guild. By overall standards that is, not by MMO champ standards. We clear heroic in a few weeks and do a few mythic bosses if we have the time.

[Aeriedk]

-Snip-

This really isn't a problem with heroic raids, but more a problem with your group.

Please, let me explain. While the difficulty of heroic(normal) raids, whatever you want to call it, have generally remained constant. The skill of you are your group likely has not. So realistically your group has just gotten too good for heroic raiding to be a challenge.

It happens to everyone. While mythic will always remain a challenge the longest due to length, mechanics, and complexity even those fights become easier for long term mythic raiders. I raided mythic for years and the most difficult thing about every fight was having a competent group to kill bosses.

While I do understand the predicament you're in I recommend your group find mythic guilds that present a challenge or simply enjoy heroic raiding with each other. I do think cross-realm mythic should be a thing, but in regards of making mythic scale or making heroic "harder" I must disagree.

Best of luck!

Edit: Given. I haven't raided heroic this expansion so it could be easier, but I never really saw much difference between LK->WoD so I doubt they made it significantly easier now.

[Slymon]

I totally agree. This raid is definately easier. Me and guild only raid once a week just so we can see some content. We only raid HC, and it worked well in WoD. Clearing the raids took some time, so we only had a few weeks off before new content came out (not counting HFC).
This expansion we cleared everything in 3 weeks. And still had time left on our 3rd raid night. We're pretty fragile, so the thought of people getting bored is kinda scary.

[Sansnom]

1 - No, mythics exist. Just because you aren't playing there, doesn't mean something else needs to change.
2 - Sure, realms don't really matter anymore. Not sure what Blizz is trying to do here.
3 - No, it is set at 20 for tuning reasons. If you need the flexibility, you have 3 other difficulties

I think you are missing the point. Some guilds are stuck at a cross roads. Heroic has flex. This is great for guilds that has a variable raid team size. However some guilds finds Heroic too easy likes to step into Mythic. Which has a fixed raid size of 20. Not all guilds has a fix roster.

Unfortunately, Blizzard will not add flex to Mythic due to the tunning issue. They had problems with just 10 and 25 in the past. So for these guilds they just either have to PUG the last few slots or just continue with Heroic.

Personally, I do find it odd that guilds are having issue with recruiting. When there were 10 and 25 Heroic (Mythic), most raiders seems to consider 25 is the true raid size. So with the downscaling to 20, I would expect there would be sufficient players for other guilds wanting to do recruit.

[cFortyfive]

Don't try to bullshit otherwise.

Ignores numbers - goes with ridiculous rabble instead. decent shitposting skills. Any heroic endboss encounter in wod was tuned above what you got in en.

In Legion, you can be full stuff before entering the Hc raids with their Mythic+ Dungeons bullshit. You had a much, much lower relative ilvl when attacking Highmaul.

Obviously true but that's what tuning is for.