About that combat revamp

[Deleted]

I have a lot of respect for the summoners, that class is so hard to play compared to what it gives... its amazing for dungeons and stuff, but raiding becomes another story

[Wrecktangle]

They're not the most interesting abilities, however the classes that can apply them do get the benefits. For them, it's keeping a debuff active to improve your personal DPS. On that sort of level I think they're fine. Not outstanding abilities, but they're a core part of optimising your damage output. The fact that others can benefit is more of a bonus than the primary reason you'd want to use them.

That being said, I would like to see them replaced by more group wide cooldowns. They offer up the same kind of power as a permenant debuff, but in a way that is far more noticable and appreciable than just larger numbers if X class is in the group.

Ok so we're in agreement they should be gone - that's the core of my discussion. Now that we've covered that.

I've had to bench my guilds Mages during Sunwell progression. "Sunwelling" even became it's own little meme for a while, where it ment being dumped from a raid because your class was just too far behind the curve to really belong in a serious progression raid.

It was probably one of the worst conversations I've ever had. Telling your friends that they're no longer able to be a part of your raiding, despite all the skill they had, just because they were playing the wrong class at the wrong time. I still to this day feel awful for having to do it, but they were holding the 22 other people in our raid back. We passed the DPS check on Brutallus (with almost 15 seconds to spare!) our first raid without them.

I was actually hoping you were going to give me a FF14 example not a WoW one, especially not one from over 9 years ago... Things have changed in MMO design over the last 9 years lol.

[Nurvus]

Here are the ways I think about improving in FFXIV combat and/or surrounding systems:

Note: Haven't played in a while, so there's a chance I am suggesting something already implemented

Ability Design
Nearly every ability seems to follow a very strict design of:
X base damage/healing per GCD/Cast Time + buff/debuff + combo bonus.

Anything other than that is scarce.
I completely understand if the devs want to avoid Hard CC and too much mobility - but they are playing TOO safe.
The ridiculous cooldown on Evasive Jump just shows how afraid they are to mess with anything that isn't pure throughput.

Would be nice to see (more) stuff like:
1 - Interrupts - this is such a great mechanic in any game (Note: I’m not referring to Stuns, just pure Interrupts).
2 - Multi-hit - In order for the truly "hard hitting" abilities to feel powerful, the multi-hitting such as Bootshine (PGL) should display their multiple hits separately.
3 - Continuous/Channeled (drains MP/TP continuously) - only BRD has a few, and they’re buffs.
We should have interesting stuff such as channeling a firestorm or spinning continuously, or hacking everything in a cone in front of you every X seconds.
4 - Charged - variable power skills that become stronger the longer you hold them
5 - Displacement (Dash, Leap and Teleport) - there are very few in game, usually with very high cooldowns (from 60 to 180s).
6 - Destructible (Totems, Prison, Walls, Summons)
7 - Zone - Buffs/Debuffs that stay in a specific area.
8 - Transformation (Vincent Valentine Limit Breaks, Druidic Animal Shapes, etc)
9 - Multi-function Skills - abilities that can do more than one thing, possibly with a cooldown or condition to force a decision on you.
10 - Procs/Combat opportunities - this is something that WoW uses a lot and FFXIV uses very little. I mean effects that occur in a "less than 100% predictable" fashion and change up the priorities in your rotation, by empowering a skill you wouldn't otherwise use use in that situation.

Combos & Rotation
I think they could focus more on making combos more fluid, by adding several branches with different purposes.
- All sorts of combinations between TP and/or MP management, burst, etc
- A certain powerful single target ability becoming AoE when using in a specific combo.
- An otherwise instant cast becoming a long cast with greatly amplified effect when in a specific combo.
- Combat opportunities changing your priorities, making the rotation less predictable and rewarding good decision making on the fly.

Essentially I'd like to see a lot more than the usual "set up all your buff/debuffs, use filler combo, repeat with a couple off the GCD skills weaved in between".

Limit Break & Materia
These systems are currently an insult to FFVII.

Limit Break
[1] - First, the hardest part - give each Job their own unique Limit Breaks.
[1.1] - Even harder, multiple Limit Breaks per level, from which we would select outside of battle or maybe only in town.
DPS Jobs might would get a ST and an AoE Limit Break for the same level at 1 or 2 different levels, which might vary from Job to Job.
So BLMs might get ST+AoE at levels 1 and 3, and DRG at 1 and 2, etc.
[1.2] - As suggested by Rampage (a few posts below), you could instead give players the option to pick one out of X Limit Breaks per Level.
[2] - At level 15, you unlock your own Limit Break Gauge, but can only reach Level 1.
[3] - Once you obtain a Job, your own Limit Break Gauge can reach Level 2 (perhaps only in Duties).
[4] - Your Limit Break action is replaced with Limit Break I, Limit Break II and Limit Break III.
So you can control what strength of Limit Break you want to use at any time.
[5] - Duty Gauge is not removed. When you attempt to use a Limit Break, you use up your Personal LB Gauge first, and if you need more, then use any missing LB Gauge from your Duty LB Gauge.
[6] - Since your Personal LB Gauge only goes up to level 2, the only way to use a Limit Break Lv3 is in a Duty, using up both your Gauge and the Duty Gauge.
So if you have Level 2 Gauge filled up, and Level 2 Duty Gauge filled up, and try to use a Limit Break III, it uses all your Gauge plus 1 Level from the Duty Gauge.
[7] - Personal LB Gauge fills much slower than Duty LB Gauge because it only accounts for your actions.

To compensate:
- Encounters might need to be adjusted to reflect this "buff" (increased boss HP, etc).
- Limit Breaks might also need to be weakened due to their more frequent availability, and in order to prevent them from being too strong if available in PvP.
Results:
- The gameplay around coordinating Limit Breaks group-wide is not weakened or removed, but improved, by making good decision-making more important than ever.
- You finally have Limit Breaks of your own, and more control over your own power.

Materia
[1] - Materia is separated into 5 types:
- Purple (Independent) - Stats - the current bonuses. There could also be percentage bonus Materia, if needed with a flat maximum like Food: +X% (max Y).
The flat bonus Materia "+5" would be best to compensate stats you might be lacking, and the percentage Materia "+5% (max 7)" ideal to maximize your best Stat(s).
- Green (Magic) - Magic
- Yellow (Command) - Skill
- Red (Summon) - Summon
- Blue (Support) - Utility & Linking with Green/Yellow/Red (see [2])
[1.1] - Green, Yellow, Red and Blue Materia do nothing on their own when melded. Instead, they can then be attached to Abilities.
Example:
Step 1 - You meld 4 Slots:
(Purple) +5 Str
(Green) Impact (adds AoE Splash to spell)
(Blue) HP Absorb (damage with attached skill partially absorbed as hp)
(Blue) Overcool (Cooldown on attached skill reduced by 1 sec when you use other skills)
Step 2 - Impact, Cooldown Recovery and HP Absorb become visible in the ability menu.
Step 3 - You attach Impact to Fire III, HP Absorb to Fire II and Overcool to Swiftcast.
[1.2] - You shouldn't be able to stack more than 1 of the same Materia in a piece of equipment, getting a penalty when you do.
Example: Having 2 "+5 Str" Materia might result in a 20% penalty, ending up with "+8 Str" from the two combined Materia.
This is aimed at helping make sure that Independent (Purple) Materia isn't just used on the "unlinked" chest/leg pieces, as you will not be able to just stack your favorite stat that way, thus allowing it to still be attractive for other pieces of gear.

[2] - Materia Slots in gear can have Linked slots (pairs only)
[2.1] - By default, an ability can only be affected by 1 Materia, but by linking a Blue Materia with a Green/Yellow/Red Materia, they both affect the same ability.
So in the example above, if the Impact (Green) and HP Absorb (Blue) Materia are in linked slots, they can both attach to Fire III.
[2.2] - Some Blue/Support Materia may be Link-Only.
Example: Added Effect (Blue/Support) - Adds attached Ability's effect to the Ability attached to Linked Green/Yellow/Red Materia.
(So you can attach Added Effect to Phlebotomize and Double Cut to True Thrust, and if Added Effect and Double Cut are linked, True Thrust will apply Phlebotomize's bleed on top of benefitting from Double Cut.)

[3] - Items could provide "set" bonuses for melding specific combinations of Materia (order/position does not matter).
Example:
A chest piece with 4 Slots might give you:
+2 Int if you meld at least 1 Purple Materia
+2 Crit if you meld at least 1 Purple and 1 Blue
+2 Determination if you meld at least 1 Purple 1 Blue and 1 Green.

[4] - Materia could be allowed to level up, unlock additional effects, and produce a new level 1 Materia once it reaches max (Master) level.
Example:
Double Cut Materia (Yellow/Command) -
Level 1 (2x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 2 times for 90% damage each (180% total).
Level 2 (3x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 3 times for 80% each (240% total).
Level 3 (4x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 4 times for 70% each (280% total).
Level 4 (Master) - A level 1 Double Cut Materia is born.

[StrawberryZebra]

Ok so we're in agreement they should be gone - that's the core of my discussion. Now that we've covered that.

If they're removed, there should be some way for DPS classes to interact with each other. Otherwise the game can feel very much like you just happen to be killing the same boss as all these other DPS, almost like a single player game, rather than a collaborative effort. You should feel more powerful when grouped with other players, otherwise you really can't tell the difference between group combat and soloing. As we've already pointed out, group cooldowns like Battle Littany or Bloodlust are great ways of doing that and offer that advantage and give the power in an appreciable package.

Knowing Squenix, they're likely to take the lazy way out and throw in some generic + damage (de)buff and call it a day. I'll be a little disapointed if they did, but I really don't think they're going as far as we all hope they are with their "combat revamp". Time will tell I guess.

I was actually hoping you were going to give me a FF14 example not a WoW one, especially not one from over 9 years ago... Things have changed in MMO design over the last 9 years lol.

I've not been playing FF 14 long enough to really see these kinds of situations arise. It's the only example I've personally experienced however. I admit I'm glad that MMO design has moved on in the past 9 years - Sunwelling people is something I never want to see in an MMO ever again. I know it to end friendships and force players away from the game they love. It should be taught as a cautionary tale to would-be MMO developers to help show them the consequences of monkeying around with a class too much.

[Dasffion]

@Nurvus I've only played BLM and WHM extensively but those two classes rely pretty heavily on procs.

[Nurvus]

@Nurvus I've only played BLM and WHM extensively but those two classes rely pretty heavily on procs.

I wouldn't go as far as to say "heavily".
BLM's Firestarter and Thundercloud are pretty much just bonus damage, like all other procs in FFXIV.
And while in WoW there are procs like that as well, what I am talking about are those actually core to the rotation.
Sometimes you even want to hold to a proc for a couple seconds to align it with something else, etc.

WoW usually "combines" a healthy dose of
a) rotation defining procs;
b) cooldowns that do not align perfectly;
c) multiple resources;
which together help preventing your rotation from being too repetitive, while simultaneously making amazing players able to stand out through superior performance.

I think FFXIV lacks a lot of that.
Right now it is all about the gear.

FFXIV combat has a lot to learn from FFXIV crafting.

[The Casualty]

BLM's Firestarter and Thundercloud are pretty much just bonus damage, like all other procs in FFXIV.
And while in WoW there are procs like that as well, what I am talking about are those actually core to the rotation.
Sometimes you even want to hold to a proc for a couple seconds to align it with something else, etc.

You would want to hold on to these for upcoming movement, Firestarter you might hold for changing swiftly between Astral/Umbral (iirc, you are better off losing Umbral stacks when ready with a Fire 1, then using Firestarter for a larger potency gain), and Thundercloud, you need to be mindful of the current dot on the target, how many ticks have gone off and where you are in your Fire IV rotation to figure out if it's worth using or holding - which, now that I think of it, the latter is something to be mindful of Firestarter as well.

I definitely wouldn't say they are just spam when they light up - I mean you *can*, but it's not very optimal.

But I am assuming you mean something different than that for WoW abilities. I haven't played that game since the final raid of Cataclysm, and I struggle to think of things that required any different or higher level of processing.

Can you give me an example of things they added to WoW that fit that bill so I can have a better understanding what you are suggesting?

[Wrecktangle]

Here are the ways I think about improving in FFXIV combat and/or surrounding systems:

Ability Types
Would be nice to see (more) stuff like:
1 - Interrupts - this is such a great mechanic in any game (Note: I’m not referring to Stuns, just pure Interrupts).
2 - Multi-hit - In order for the truly "hard hitting" abilities to feel powerful, the multi-hitting such as Bootshine (PGL) should display their multiple hits separately.
3 - Continuous/Channeled (drains MP/TP continuously) - only BRD has a few, and they’re buffs.
We should have interesting stuff such as channeling a firestorm or spinning continuously, or hacking everything in a cone in front of you every X seconds.
4 - Charged - variable power skills that become stronger the longer you hold them
5 - Displacement (Dash, Leap and Teleport) - there are very few in game, usually with very high cooldowns (from 60 to 180s).
6 - Destructible (Totems, Prison, Walls, Summons)
7 - Zone - Buffs/Debuffs that stay in a specific area.
8 - Transformation (Vincent Valentine Limit Breaks, Druidic Animal Shapes, etc)
9 - Multi-function Skills - abilities that can do more than one thing, possibly with a cooldown or condition to force a decision on you.
10 - Procs/Combat opportunities - this is something that WoW uses a lot and FFXIV uses very little. I mean effects that occur in a "less than 100% predictable" fashion and change up the priorities in your rotation, by empowering a skill you wouldn't otherwise use use in that situation.

Combos & Rotation
I think they could focus more on making combos more fluid, by adding several branches with different purposes.
- All sorts of combinations between TP and/or MP management, burst, etc
- A certain powerful single target ability becoming AoE when using in a specific combo.
- An otherwise instant cast becoming a long cast with greatly amplified effect when in a specific combo.
- Combat opportunities changing your priorities, making the rotation less predictable and rewarding good decision making on the fly.

Essentially I'd like to see a lot more than the usual "set up all your buff/debuffs, use filler combo, repeat with a couple off the GCD skills weaved in between".

Limit Break & Materia
These systems are currently an insult to FFVII.

Limit Break
[1] - First, the hardest part - give each Job their own unique Limit Breaks.
[1.1] - Even harder, multiple Limit Breaks per level, from which we would select outside of battle or maybe only in town.
DPS Jobs might would get a ST and an AoE Limit Break for the same level at 1 or 2 different levels, which might vary from Job to Job.
So BLMs might get ST+AoE at levels 1 and 3, and DRG at 1 and 2, etc.
[1.2] - As suggested by Rampage (a few posts below), you could instead give players the option to pick one out of X Limit Breaks per Level.
[2] - At level 15, you unlock your own Limit Break Gauge, but can only reach Level 1.
[3] - Once you obtain a Job, your own Limit Break Gauge can reach Level 2 (perhaps only in Duties).
[4] - Your Limit Break action is replaced with Limit Break I, Limit Break II and Limit Break III.
So you can control what strength of Limit Break you want to use at any time.
[5] - Duty Gauge is not removed. When you attempt to use a Limit Break, you use up your Personal LB Gauge first, and if you need more, then use any missing LB Gauge from your Duty LB Gauge.
[6] - Since your Personal LB Gauge only goes up to level 2, the only way to use a Limit Break Lv3 is in a Duty, using up both your Gauge and the Duty Gauge.
So if you have Level 2 Gauge filled up, and Level 2 Duty Gauge filled up, and try to use a Limit Break III, it uses all your Gauge plus 1 Level from the Duty Gauge.
[7] - Personal LB Gauge fills much slower than Duty LB Gauge because it only accounts for your actions.

To compensate:
- Encounters might need to be adjusted to reflect this "buff" (increased boss HP, etc).
- Limit Breaks might also need to be weakened due to their more frequent availability, and in order to prevent them from being too strong if available in PvP.
Results:
- The gameplay around coordinating Limit Breaks group-wide is not weakened or removed, but improved, by making good decision-making more important than ever.
- You finally have Limit Breaks of your own, and more control over your own power.

Materia
[1] - Materia is separated into 5 types:
- Purple (Independent) - Stats - the current bonuses. There could also be percentage bonus Materia, if needed with a flat maximum like Food: +X% (max Y).
The flat bonus Materia "+5" would be best to compensate stats you might be lacking, and the percentage Materia "+5% (max 7)" ideal to maximize your best Stat(s).
- Green (Magic) - Magic
- Yellow (Command) - Skill
- Red (Summon) - Summon
- Blue (Support) - Utility & Linking with Green/Yellow/Red (see [2])
[1.1] - Green, Yellow, Red and Blue Materia do nothing on their own when melded. Instead, they can then be attached to Abilities.
Example:
Step 1 - You meld 4 Slots:
(Purple) +5 Str
(Green) Impact (adds AoE Splash to spell)
(Blue) HP Absorb (damage with attached skill partially absorbed as hp)
(Blue) Overcool (Cooldown on attached skill reduced by 1 sec when you use other skills)
Step 2 - Impact, Cooldown Recovery and HP Absorb become visible in the ability menu.
Step 3 - You attach Impact to Fire III, HP Absorb to Fire II and Overcool to Swiftcast.
[1.2] - You shouldn't be able to stack more than 1 of the same Materia in a piece of equipment, getting a penalty when you do.
Example: Having 2 "+5 Str" Materia might result in a 20% penalty, ending up with "+8 Str" from the two combined Materia.
This is aimed at helping make sure that Independent (Purple) Materia isn't just used on the "unlinked" chest/leg pieces, as you will not be able to just stack your favorite stat that way, thus allowing it to still be attractive for other pieces of gear.

[2] - Materia Slots in gear can have Linked slots (pairs only)
[2.1] - By default, an ability can only be affected by 1 Materia, but by linking a Blue Materia with a Green/Yellow/Red Materia, they both affect the same ability.
So in the example above, if the Impact (Green) and HP Absorb (Blue) Materia are in linked slots, they can both attach to Fire III.
[2.2] - Some Blue/Support Materia may be Link-Only.
Example: Added Effect (Blue/Support) - Adds attached Ability's effect to the Ability attached to Linked Green/Yellow/Red Materia.
(So you can attach Added Effect to Phlebotomize and Double Cut to True Thrust, and if Added Effect and Double Cut are linked, True Thrust will apply Phlebotomize's bleed on top of benefitting from Double Cut.)

[3] - Items could provide "set" bonuses for melding specific combinations of Materia (order/position does not matter).
Example:
A chest piece with 4 Slots might give you:
+2 Int if you meld at least 1 Purple Materia
+2 Crit if you meld at least 1 Purple and 1 Blue
+2 Determination if you meld at least 1 Purple 1 Blue and 1 Green.

[4] - Materia could be allowed to level up, unlock additional effects, and produce a new level 1 Materia once it reaches max (Master) level.
Example:
Double Cut Materia (Yellow/Command) -
Level 1 (2x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 2 times for 90% damage each (180% total).
Level 2 (3x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 3 times for 80% each (240% total).
Level 3 (4x-Cut) - Every 5th use of the attached damaging ability will hit the target 4 times for 70% each (280% total).
Level 4 (Master) - A level 1 Double Cut Materia is born.

Since you clearly put some effort into this I'd like to respond:

I like your ideas for adding ability types. It would be a much needed boon IMO. Your examples are good. I'm going to piggyback off your suggestions and tailor them to my chosen job: DRG:

1) Interrupts. I think FF14 should definitely utilize interrupts and effects that are beneficial to interrupt and MANDATORY to interrupt.

Thematically imagine a bo staff neckroll into one hand swing towards the enemies head. It'd be fast, because interrupts need to be quick animations. Shortish CD, moderate TP cost, single target interrupt. If you even wanted to take it one step further, requires flank to add interrupt effect, although I'm not personally sold on positional requirements to hit interrupts.

2) Multi-Hit. I'm not 100% sure I completely follow this piece so are we suggesting that by pressing a button, you can press it 2-3x more to repeat its effect? If so that's not a terrible idea. Almost like a high DPS rapid TP drain effect? I like that. It would also allow the alternative of having other combos/abilities to regain TP.

Thematically I imagine maybe repeated frontal thrusts (like True Thrust/Vorpal Thrust animations). As you repeat it the effect intensifies. Maybe even make the TP cost raise with each cast.

3) Continuous: I could see a helicopter like above the head twirl continuous move. It channels a whirlwind gust that intensifies the longer its charged granting more TP restored when unleashed. That seems fun to me.

4) Charged: Thematically it would look like a figure 8 attack bo staff attack with the spear/halberd. That the longer you charged it the more powerful the effect was. To keep gameplay fresh I'd imagine charge times shouldn't be long IMO.

The others didn't seem as pertinent or as necessary or already existed for a DRG so I'll pass on those.

Some other wishlist type of mechanics include maybe a bleed system for DRG. Have their thrust attacks generate bleeds that can be 'popped' by disembowl. This would then grant new effects on attacks while a target is 'disembowled'. I don't like disembowl as a generic dps up move and should impact gameplay more positively. I'd also love a polevault kind of mechanic for DRG. Maybe a lower ish cd reposition tool.

Obviously with any battle system changes I'd love content to be designed around needing these type of moves/effects to succeed.

I actually long suggested a revamped LB system. I actually really hate how stagnant it is and I hate how unbalanced they are. I'd prefer them be retooled personally like you said. I don't even think there is a real need for a party one, because 99.99% of the time it's a DPS using it. I imagine content where you need the tank LB to help the party survive, or that the healer LB used when they fall behind on healing and they can't top the party off. Almost like really powerful cooldowns, but instead of using when you need them, you'd need to earn them over the fight.

Regarding Materia I agree. The current system is downright fucking insulting.

I don't think copying FF7's is the best way to go IMO. I long suggested almost using materia as a sort of talent system. In that you could slot materia to boost/add/change effects to certain abilities. I coupled it with a system that grew alongside your character so that you could slot more materia in your gear as you went on.

If they're removed, there should be some way for DPS classes to interact with each other. Otherwise the game can feel very much like you just happen to be killing the same boss as all these other DPS, almost like a single player game, rather than a collaborative effort. You should feel more powerful when grouped with other players, otherwise you really can't tell the difference between group combat and soloing. As we've already pointed out, group cooldowns like Battle Littany or Bloodlust are great ways of doing that and offer that advantage and give the power in an appreciable package.

Personally I'd like to take a little bit away from the party thing and put more into people personally. I think that the roles of the trinity cover any synergy IMO.

[Nurvus]

You would want to hold on to these for upcoming movement, Firestarter you might hold for changing swiftly between Astral/Umbral (iirc, you are better off losing Umbral stacks when ready with a Fire 1, then using Firestarter for a larger potency gain), and Thundercloud, you need to be mindful of the current dot on the target, how many ticks have gone off and where you are in your Fire IV rotation to figure out if it's worth using or holding - which, now that I think of it, the latter is something to be mindful of Firestarter as well.

I definitely wouldn't say they are just spam when they light up - I mean you *can*, but it's not very optimal.

But I am assuming you mean something different than that for WoW abilities. I haven't played that game since the final raid of Cataclysm, and I struggle to think of things that required any different or higher level of processing.

Can you give me an example of things they added to WoW that fit that bill so I can have a better understanding what you are suggesting?

BLM is definitely the "better" example of FFXIV, due to MP management vs temporary buffs vs procs.
So the procs themselves are quite simple. But the rest gives them some depth.

Other than a few exceptions, FXIV has too much focus on buff/debuff, and 1-2-3 fillers, and I think it restricts its design and helps making it feel repetitive.

As I said after the text you quoted, it's not just the procs, misaligned cooldowns or multiple resources - it's combining multiple of those.

I think it's important to separate complexity from depth.
A rotation can be extremely complex yet devoid of depth.
You can have lots of different keys to press, lots of different tasks to manage, but no real decision to make.

Take Rogues and Demon Hunters:
1 - Fast moving resource makes you have to worry about not overcapping/wasting.
2 - Rogues use a second resource (Combo Points) required for finishers.
2.1 - All rogue specs have some randomness in the rate at which they obtain Combo Points and/or Energy.
2.2 - Outlaw Rogues have finisher that grants a random buff (Roll the Bones) that may require you to change your rotation on the fly, sometimes even rerolling the buff.
2.3 - Subtlety Rogues reduce an important ability's cooldown by using finishers.
3 - Havoc Demon Hunters' gameplay focuses on their high mobility, as one build gives you a short damage buff when you use a mobility skill, and another build creates Soul Fragments (random proc) from skill usage that you can pick up to gain resource/reduce cooldowns.

All in all, WoW manages to make a lot of interesting rotations while using arguably half as many skills as FFXIV.
They could definitely do better, and both WoW and FFXIV can learn from each other, but I think as far as combat goes, FFXIV has a lot more to learn, even from its own Crafting rotations.

Note: This isn't to say WoW doesn't have some repetitive, simple and boring rotations, depending on the Talents you pick.

[The Casualty]

-snip-
You can have lots of different keys to press, lots of different tasks to manage, but no real decision to make.
-snip-

I appreciate the examples, I was not trying to be deliberately obtuse. It makes a lot more sense.

And I especially agree with the above quote - and it's the primary reason why I can't get into DRG. The single target rotation from beginning to end is exceptionally long without any variation.

I would definitely like to see smaller rotations with more decision making points.

[Nurvus]

2) Multi-Hit. I'm not 100% sure I completely follow this piece so are we suggesting that by pressing a button, you can press it 2-3x more to repeat its effect?

Your idea is sound too, but I was talking about actually seeing the separate hits.
There's the "huge hit" feel, and the "many hits" feel, and seeing the HP go down ONCE as if it was a huge hit is annoying.
Having multi-hit abilities actually multi-hit could also open up mechanics such as having "on-hit" proc chance from a passive, and the multi-hit ability essentially would be able to proc multiple times.

I actually long suggested a revamped LB system. I actually really hate how stagnant it is and I hate how unbalanced they are. I'd prefer them be retooled personally like you said. I don't even think there is a real need for a party one, because 99.99% of the time it's a DPS using it. I imagine content where you need the tank LB to help the party survive, or that the healer LB used when they fall behind on healing and they can't top the party off. Almost like really powerful cooldowns, but instead of using when you need them, you'd need to earn them over the fight.

Exactly, if anything, LB should be a big "pay-off" moment. Instead they're super predictable and premeditated.

LB generation should be a "side objective" of every rotation in a way that rewards skill.

Regarding Materia I agree. The current system is downright fucking insulting.

I don't think copying FF7's is the best way to go IMO. I long suggested almost using materia as a sort of talent system. In that you could slot materia to boost/add/change effects to certain abilities. I coupled it with a system that grew alongside your character so that you could slot more materia in your gear as you went on.

SE blatantly abuses nostalgia with FFXIV.

So my complaint is - at least do it right.

FFVII Limit Break & Materia systems are great "as is" and can even be improved.
FFX Overdrive system (and the various ways through which you can build meter) also has a lot to add.

I merely added suggestions on how to put both systems into FFXIV in a way that is compatible with what they already did with the game.

[Deleted]

In my opinion LBs should be personal
They should give each a unique animation and a faster cast time and make it some kind of ressource that way
It should be a huge cooldown, something like a true battlerez, a dps buff, a party mitigation buff, AoE oriented, ST oriented etc.

LBs right now look fine, but they are boring

[The Casualty]

I think I'm for keeping the LB where it is.

I primarily play tank, so outside of the mandatory A12 use, and learning phases/cheesing mechanics, I don't get to see mine that much. But if you switched it to just a personal level 1, it would be far less dramatic - just another tank cooldown. Depending on how fast it builds, I could even tell you where it would get used on every current fight. That to me is boring.

I would like it to be dynamic with choices to be made. The issue is that most content is so ridiculously easy you really never need the limit break for anything, so it just ends up being tossed out by a melee for the max potency. I don't think that paradigm is going to change and I don't see the need to give everyone a button. I like it where it is for harder content where those 3 bars are a currency with a value.

[Deleted]

That's why it shouldn't be a group ultimate but personal, with different versions. (a 30s dps buff, another class has an instant dmg nuke, another class will debuff everything and reduce X + Y etc. etc.)

Thats how it becomes dynamic.

If it's just "instant damage" like it's now, it's always going to be used the same way.
Same with the rest of the set.


But who are we kidding, it won't change anyway.

I hope they'll release some more info before launch on what has changed... because right now, some of my friends don't want to start again because it'll be "just another Heavensward" (as in "we don't have a reason to start again, because we didn't even manage/made the effort to play heavensward till the end")
Very little has changed, I can't even blame them. Information is scarce.

[dope_danny]

In my opinion LBs should be personal
They should give each a unique animation and a faster cast time and make it some kind of ressource that way
It should be a huge cooldown, something like a true battlerez, a dps buff, a party mitigation buff, AoE oriented, ST oriented etc.

LBs right now look fine, but they are boring

Limit breaks are okay as a means of 'group output and performance rewarding a big finisher' but they could also look into using Trance as something personal. Give each job a criteria like "X amount of damage mitigated as tank" or "number of players hit with aoe heal as healer" or something and the next time something drastic happens you get the trance effect. Something like tank dies or healer drops, something to maybe give your party another 30 seconds before a wipe to try and turn things around. Maybe your character turns into a photo negative of their artefact job gear for 30 seconds and gains a role specific additional effect like dps gains blood sword, vampiric damage, tank gains a version of living dead with haste, protect, stoneskin and a taunt aura and healers gain freecast and every spell becoming a short range aoe or something ridiculous. make it rare but welcome as a 'player breaks their limits' should be.

[Nurvus]

I think I'm for keeping the LB where it is.

I primarily play tank, so outside of the mandatory A12 use, and learning phases/cheesing mechanics, I don't get to see mine that much. But if you switched it to just a personal level 1, it would be far less dramatic - just another tank cooldown. Depending on how fast it builds, I could even tell you where it would get used on every current fight. That to me is boring.

I would like it to be dynamic with choices to be made. The issue is that most content is so ridiculously easy you really never need the limit break for anything, so it just ends up being tossed out by a melee for the max potency. I don't think that paradigm is going to change and I don't see the need to give everyone a button. I like it where it is for harder content where those 3 bars are a currency with a value.

Which is why I suggest having both a Personal Gauge (1 bar outside duty and 2 inside) and a Duty Gauge (3 bars), making LB always prioritize personal gauge first, and thus LB lv3 requires Duty Gauge.
If you have 0 personal bars filled you need 3 duty bars
If you have 1 personal you need 2 duty
If you have 2 personal you need 1 duty

This requires you to be able to select the LB strength.

Naturally the rate at which you fill personal and duty would need adjustment.

Just make sure that building gauge rewards skill.

[Wrecktangle]

I think I'm for keeping the LB where it is.

I primarily play tank, so outside of the mandatory A12 use, and learning phases/cheesing mechanics, I don't get to see mine that much. But if you switched it to just a personal level 1, it would be far less dramatic - just another tank cooldown. Depending on how fast it builds, I could even tell you where it would get used on every current fight. That to me is boring.

I would like it to be dynamic with choices to be made. The issue is that most content is so ridiculously easy you really never need the limit break for anything, so it just ends up being tossed out by a melee for the max potency. I don't think that paradigm is going to change and I don't see the need to give everyone a button. I like it where it is for harder content where those 3 bars are a currency with a value.

The one major aspect you're missing is that if the LB changes were made content going forward would utilize it. You're assuming new LB with old content model, which isn't a terrible assumption, but it does these changes quite a disservice IMO.

[threads]

I don't know if I like everyone having their own personal LB. It was pretty meh when it was mostly just melee LB at 3, but in creator savage every role's LB was useful and I think i'd like it if they kept that in mind going forward.

[Wrecktangle]

I don't know if I like everyone having their own personal LB. It was pretty meh when it was mostly just melee LB at 3, but in creator savage every role's LB was useful and I think i'd like it if they kept that in mind going forward.

The problem with this is that it's too binary:

You either:
A) Need DPS LB to kill add/phase else wipe
B) Need tank LB to survive ultimate attack else wipe
C) Hail Mary Healer LB to resurrect everyone, to just wipe 15s later anyway, except for 1% of the time it actually saves a wipe.

Once progression is over, you use DPS LB regardless.

[Thage]

I suspect that we'll see quicker, more efficient combat. Hopefully MCH and BRD will lose the awful cast bar they're stuck with at later levels. We know they're planning to combine and remove certain abilities so hopefully those that remain will be more useful/hard hitting. We should get more information at the next Fan Fest though I forget when that is...

If they ditch Wanderer's Minuet/Gauss Barrel, that would single-handedly save those classes for me. If I wanted to play a turret-caster, I'd play a Black Mage. As-is, looks like I'll be maining NIN/RDM in Stormblood.

edit: Not to disparage BM. I have fun with BM, but I always understood and embraced that the BRD tradeoff was a little less direct damage per skill for sustained damage via autoshot and more mobility in boss fights. Wanderer's Minuet just kinda flies in the face of that design.