FoJ VS Zeal

[Meiffert]

You are correct. Let me ask my question again though because it wasn't what I wanted to mean.

At which haste percentage would Zeal become as fluid as Crusader Strike? Or in other words drop below 3 sec cooldown. Is there a formula to calculate this?

Yeah, I get it, but in fact, my original answer is what you are looking for.
You might lower the CD of Zeal to 3.5 seconds (at 28.5 % haste), or to 3 seconds (50 % haste), or to 2.25 seconds (100 % haste), but it won't make it "feel fluid".
The reason is that your GCD is lowered by the same ratio. So even though you have more abilities to use, you also have more globals to fill and as a result the empty globals when you have nothing to press will still be there. (And they are what creates the non-smooth feeling of having to stop.)

[ThePants999]

Exactly. 3 seconds is an irrelevant number.

[Beej]

For me they both seem pretty close. I am pretty sure Zeal is better but I really enjoy the more fluid feeling rotation of foj. Every time I use zeal it just feels a bit slower and I cant stand that. I also wish Zeal had a cooler attack animation to at least give some visual gratification for the slightly slower rotation it offers. Since they are reasonably close I just use foj as I really loath empty gcd situations.

My biggest gripe with Paladins this expansion is that many of the talents that really interest me have such long cooldowns. I wouldn't mind being more of an AOE spec for example, but uhg, those cooldowns. And some talents are just plain useless, like we have no real options what so ever on some talent rows. When you have talents like consecration, seal of light, holy wrath and even greater judgement... our options are so few. When you want to take aoe talents like say zeal and divine hammer, we end up in auto attack hell as we wait for abilities to come off cooldown. If we want to go pure aoe we can try and pick up consecration but that talent is so bad that you might even do more aoe damage from the final verdict and foj talents for more divine storm damage and quicker divine storm usage due to foj procs lowering hp costs and generating hp quicker.

[Balinos]

Well i agree that Zeal seems slow, but saying that we dont have lots of options? Want to just simple aoe take Zeal. Zeal isnt enought? Divine Hammer. Want to Divine Storm 5 enemies? Greater Judment. And want to just down Nythendra doin more dps than anyone? FoJ + Crusade + Blade of Wrath and gg.

[Beej]

Well i agree that Zeal seems slow, but saying that we dont have lots of options? Want to just simple aoe take Zeal. Zeal isnt enought? Divine Hammer. Want to Divine Storm 5 enemies? Greater Judment. And want to just down Nythendra doin more dps than anyone? FoJ + Crusade + Blade of Wrath and gg.

I did a pretty good job of explaining why I felt that way, at least I think i did, but you um... didn't even mention those opinions as if I never stated them or something. Maybe my opinion wasn't clear? I will summarize -- pretty much every single talent row has one (or two) talents that we should never, ever, eveeeeeer take, giving us considerably less options. So yes, thats how I feel when I say we really don't have a lot of options. Sorry if my previous post was vague.

[GT4]

oh I dunno, by the nerdy guys who do the theorycraft things ?)

So there's no source? Thanks for clarifying. Gotta love how "theorycrafting" went from a somewhat scientific process on EJ to hear-say on discord channels.

[Morally Grey Storm]

So there's no source? Thanks for clarifying. Gotta love how "theorycrafting" went from a somewhat scientific process on EJ to hear-say on discord channels.

I won't bother myself with digging up the links.
Feel free to unleash a few more snarky lines, though.
It might yet provide amusement

[GT4]

I won't bother myself with digging up the links.

Yeah, who needs evidence for their claims anyway? Just spew so much bullshit nobody bothers to fact-check you any more.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah, who needs evidence for their claims anyway? Just spew so much bullshit nobody bothers to fact-check you any more.

good thing I don't spit bullshit, then

Try Again Bragg

[Haram]

I did a pretty good job of explaining why I felt that way, at least I think i did, but you um... didn't even mention those opinions as if I never stated them or something. Maybe my opinion wasn't clear? I will summarize -- pretty much every single talent row has one (or two) talents that we should never, ever, eveeeeeer take, giving us considerably less options. So yes, thats how I feel when I say we really don't have a lot of options. Sorry if my previous post was vague.

Agreed with this. First talent row has only 1 option. Last talent row really only has 1 option at any serious level. Virtue's Blade is worthless. Divine Hammer without haste reduction is worthless unless you are dealing consistently with large trash packs, as your HP generation slows down to a crawl.

[Lucetia]

Agreed with this. First talent row has only 1 option. Last talent row really only has 1 option at any serious level. Virtue's Blade is worthless. Divine Hammer without haste reduction is worthless unless you are dealing consistently with large trash packs, as your HP generation slows down to a crawl.

Yeah, they talked about in 7.1.5 some talents will be baked into the specs because of how high demand they are needed for the spec. Curious to see if they bake any of ret's into the spec.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ret got Crusade baseline at least.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Yeah, they talked about in 7.1.5 some talents will be baked into the specs because of how high demand they are needed for the spec. Curious to see if they bake any of ret's into the spec.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ret got Crusade baseline at least.

10 bucks say the tops we'll get is Concecration bsaeline.

[Lucetia]

10 bucks say the tops we'll get is Concecration bsaeline.

Honestly, I'm hoping they do. I know it's not "the best" talent in that row, but it has it's uses and I just stick with it unless I really need the TV/DS boost talent.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Honestly, I'm hoping they do. I know it's not "the best" talent in that row, but it has it's uses and I just stick with it unless I really need the TV/DS boost talent.

And on what occasion you don't need TV/DS boosted, if I my ask?

Up to 45% of our damage is done through TV and TV alone.

[Lucetia]

And on what occasion you don't need TV/DS boosted, if I my ask?

Up to 45% of our damage is done through TV and TV alone.

Well, for anything I do consecration is fine. Only time I consider the other is for Mythic+.

Don't have time for actual raids at the moment with my time schedule (when I do have a few hours alotted it's like 2-3am PST and not many looking). So for World Quests / Dungeons / LFR / PvP I'm fine with consecration.

Also, overall it's not that much difference. After doing multiple tests 3 TV's per consecrate (can fit in about 2-3 pending on HP pool) it was only about ~75-85k dps) while consecrate did on ~105k dps. That was with TV being buffed by judgement every time. It probably has something more to do with gear set too.

[Snorri]

What is the range for Zeal? 5 yards? It seems to only work if the enemies are standing right on top of each other.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Well, for anything I do consecration is fine. Only time I consider the other is for Mythic+.

Don't have time for actual raids at the moment with my time schedule (when I do have a few hours alotted it's like 2-3am PST and not many looking). So for World Quests / Dungeons / LFR / PvP I'm fine with consecration.

Also, overall it's not that much difference. After doing multiple tests 3 TV's per consecrate (can fit in about 2-3 pending on HP pool) it was only about ~75-85k dps) while consecrate did on ~105k dps. That was with TV being buffed by judgement every time. It probably has something more to do with gear set too.

Consider this one, then...
I'm not sure you'll have enough spare gcds to use Consecration on cd in any serious dragonslaying endeavor.
Therefore, these theoretical dps numbers are devoid of meaning.
Coupled with consecration doing nothing towards our main goal while dpsing, that is to unleash an Unlimited Verdict Works, consecration works against this goal, as it in no way interacts with HoPo nor with judgement debuff.
Also, for the duration of Crusade, consecration simply vanishes from our rotation.

Of course it's your choice what to use, I'm just speculating on how I think this talent is inferior in almost any way and scenario compared even to Failure Sentence.

[Lucetia]

Consider this one, then...
I'm not sure you'll have enough spare gcds to use Consecration on cd in any serious dragonslaying endeavor.
Therefore, these theoretical dps numbers are devoid of meaning.
Coupled with consecration doing nothing towards our main goal while dpsing, that is to unleash an Unlimited Verdict Works, consecration works against this goal, as it in no way interacts with HoPo nor with judgement debuff.
Also, for the duration of Crusade, consecration simply vanishes from our rotation.

Of course it's your choice what to use, I'm just speculating on how I think this talent is inferior in almost any way and scenario compared even to Failure Sentence.

That's true, but I basically have no issues fitting in consecration in my rotation currently. At most it gets delayed a second once in awhile. A few more during crusade.

Granted the numbers aren't 100% solid and if I'm not lazy tonight will do some further testing on a dummy and see how it works. The upside is that there are a lot of bosses with at least 1 add so the damage will go up a lot more than a TV too.

[Deleted]

Only way to get free gcds is through div hammer and zeal/judgements. Even if they bake conc in basic spells they will have to buff it by quite much through talents to overwhelm fv coupled with cloak even on aoe situations.
As to why maths are not seen in paladin thread this expansion. Theorycrafters are kinda overwhelmed by the way the class works atm and a huge tome should be made to cover up every possible situation/talent picks/gear picks (specially atm when the latter can come from a huuge variety of sources and everything is attainable by running mythics+ or hc/mythic raids --- every player atm has the chance to overgear mythic raids upon entrance). Literally every single question generates more that need answering.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Wanted to see for myself, so talented into Conc while standing in Class Hall.
Then checked the TV tooltip, noticed -35k worth of damage off off it, was slightly disturbed, checked the mighty 87k over 10 seconds tooltip for Conc, un-talented Conc.
No please thank you no.