a response to those who hate casual players

[Galax]

Why do everyone confuse casual with "i dont raid or do mythics".

Casual (to me at least) is someone that does not play alot. I play twice a week, one of those days are raid days were we clear HC then progress on mythic. The other day is for mythic+/farming/achivements etc etc.

If you dont enter raids, thats your problem. It does not mean you are casual, just that you cant bother with pugs or join a raiding guild.

and here's the thing. For people like you, the Vanilla/TBC model works fine. To use TBC as an example, one day you'd do Kara, and another day you'd progress in SSC/TK. By the end of the xpack you'd probably be somewhere close to killing Illidan. Nothing got fixed for players like you when multiple difficulty settings were introduced.

It was only the people who wanted to do zero organizing, no preparation and basically just log in, mash a button and wait for the lore to hit them in the face. So while I would call you a pretty casual player, you're not 'casual' in the derogatory sense. You just don't play that often which is fine. You aren't part of the problem.

[Usagi Senshi]

If tmmrw lets say your gf called and wanted to spend the entire day with you would you skip wow fkr that? If your friends called tk get hammered would you skip wow forbthat? Would you join a softball league knowing that it would cut into yout play time? If the above answer tk any of these is yes you are a casual player. Time allotted does not make one casual or not. Commitment does.

I'm replying to this just to be an ass, sorry. :P

1. Don't have a girlfriend
2. I don't like drinking
3. I don't play softball
4. I'm hardcore in the technical sense

Also, I wasn't shitting on casual players (I often defend them on this forum) btw. :P

[Chaelexi]

First of all allow me to say that I am a casual player that enjoyes the AH game and earning gold etc.

Now... those who say that casual players should NOT have access to everything...
in some manner you are right, those who are interested in raids and to excell should be rewarded
BUT.... the mistake Blizzard does is to have lore endings, ending of lore storytelling within the raids
it is a great mistake because those who raids are not often interested in the lore ending or the movies
they just want to get the loot and to excell at doing hard modes and harder content.

solution is simple, change the game so that lore ending etc will be made solo content, for example
SWTOR has started with solo flashpoints, means that you can do solo things thats normally 5 man
and that is for pushing storyline onwards and does not have to be raiding

That accomplishes the difference that the raider people wants, they get their super raids with bosses
that does not necessarily have to do with the end of the storline. There can be made other bosses
and there are, but they also combine with such events that the casual player wants to see.

So, separate the casual content, storylinbe content from the raid content and everyone will be happy.
The raider can do storyline and solo mode if he/she wants and still be able to raid and do hard modes etc
while the casual player can plodd around doing his/her stuff and continue with the storyline
and everyone is happy. no?

anyone find anything bad with my reasoning?

I do not hate casuals. I do hate people who want things without putting appropriate time and effort into things. I hate people who do not care enough to step out of a mechanic, look at the dungeon journal before zoning in, do a little effort to get their spec and rotation close to correct. There are so many things that alot of casuals do not do that make me mad at them but there are the casuals who at least try to do these things and I respect those casuals. In some cases they are the unicorns but still with a little effort this game is a lot more enjoyable for all.

As for solo raids/flashpoints if you like that play style, my suggestion is you may want to play a game that offers this. WoW has been designed around end game content since vanilla and it has been the winning formula since vanilla and I do not see them going away from that because it is working. And separating the story from the raids does not make sense because we are raiding because it is the story. We are the story, we are the group of adventurers that are gonig to stop this menace from ruining our world. That is the story of WoW.

[Galax]

I think the answer has always been to create hardcore and softcore servers. Blizzard doesn't want to fragment its playerbase, but instead of fragmenting it you alienated 20% of it for the sake of the other 80%. If they had just kept attunements and a single raid difficulty but made a servergroup for that model, there wouldn't be all this discussion around 'casuals' and Nostralius. Everyone would have what they want.

[Chaelexi]

If tmmrw lets say your gf called and wanted to spend the entire day with you would you skip wow fkr that? If your friends called tk get hammered would you skip wow forbthat? Would you join a softball league knowing that it would cut into yout play time? If the above answer tk any of these is yes you are a casual player. Time allotted does not make one casual or not. Commitment does.

1) I live with my wife and she knows my raid days so it does not effect that.
2) I work normal hours 9-5 M-F so do most of my friends so drinking happens on the weekend
3) I would look at the schedule of the league and compare it to my raid schedule and join if the work together

[oxyzz]

and here's the thing. For people like you, the Vanilla/TBC model works fine. To use TBC as an example, one day you'd do Kara, and another day you'd progress in SSC/TK. By the end of the xpack you'd probably be somewhere close to killing Illidan. Nothing got fixed for players like you when multiple difficulty settings were introduced.

It was only the people who wanted to do zero organizing, no preparation and basically just log in, mash a button and wait for the lore to hit them in the face. So while I would call you a pretty casual player, you're not 'casual' in the derogatory sense. You just don't play that often which is fine. You aren't part of the problem.

I accept that argument. Wow is focused on raiding tho. I agree that there could be more story related roleplay elements outside of raids.

[Saracens]

This topic is on the line as it is, please continue the discussion based on the topic and NOT the users posting within this thread.

[Jotunhammer]

I do not hate casuals. I do hate people who want things without putting appropriate time and effort into things. I hate people who do not care enough to step out of a mechanic, look at the dungeon journal before zoning in, do a little effort to get their spec and rotation close to correct. There are so many things that alot of casuals do not do that make me mad at them but there are the casuals who at least try to do these things and I respect those casuals. In some cases they are the unicorns but still with a little effort this game is a lot more enjoyable for all.

As for solo raids/flashpoints if you like that play style, my suggestion is you may want to play a game that offers this. WoW has been designed around end game content since vanilla and it has been the winning formula since vanilla and I do not see them going away from that because it is working. And separating the story from the raids does not make sense because we are raiding because it is the story. We are the story, we are the group of adventurers that are gonig to stop this menace from ruining our world. That is the story of WoW.

Let me just correct you on one thing.
I am a fan of the Warcraft franchise. and Warcraft was never built around what you claim it was.
It was meant to be a self sustaining evnironment where you could (if you wanted to) work with other.
Nowadays it is not only necessary but it is impossible to go through WoW without grouping with 5-10-15-20 people
I want to be self sustaining and I want to be able to play the game solo if I want or group if I want and I do not
like the feeling of being forced to do something I do not like, what it WoW suddenly made PvP to a certain degree
necessary for flying for example, lots and lots of people thats not PvP would buck like a new broncho, but in
this case as in everywhere else they would have to submit to the forced gameplay they do not wish.
So yeah, I want to group 5 man, but I do not like to sit around and wait for 10 man just to clear the storyline
so thats why i would say to make storyline be available for 5 man and not only for raids. No matter LFR etc
I done those a LOT and 60% ends with either the tank don't know what to do, or healers not pumping out heals
enough or dps is shiet. 5 man is easy to control 10 man, not so much. So yeah, give up 5 man raids like Kharazhan
but with end game content. and by end game I ofc mean the storyline endgame, the rest tier stuff etc can be left over for those
who want to raid etc and wanna show off their shiny new toys.

[shonist]

First of all allow me to say that I am a casual player that enjoyes the AH game and earning gold etc.

Now... those who say that casual players should NOT have access to everything...
in some manner you are right, those who are interested in raids and to excell should be rewarded
BUT.... the mistake Blizzard does is to have lore endings, ending of lore storytelling within the raids
it is a great mistake because those who raids are not often interested in the lore ending or the movies
they just want to get the loot and to excell at doing hard modes and harder content.

solution is simple, change the game so that lore ending etc will be made solo content, for example
SWTOR has started with solo flashpoints, means that you can do solo things thats normally 5 man
and that is for pushing storyline onwards and does not have to be raiding

That accomplishes the difference that the raider people wants, they get their super raids with bosses
that does not necessarily have to do with the end of the storline. There can be made other bosses
and there are, but they also combine with such events that the casual player wants to see.

So, separate the casual content, storylinbe content from the raid content and everyone will be happy.
The raider can do storyline and solo mode if he/she wants and still be able to raid and do hard modes etc
while the casual player can plodd around doing his/her stuff and continue with the storyline
and everyone is happy. no?

anyone find anything bad with my reasoning?

Okey, so you want to get to the final of the lore "the dead of the villian" without killing it o.O Like be lv 110 without doing quest because you want to fish/earn gold and not beign forced to kill mobs during quest. and etc...

[Sencha]

Watch it on the internet? No need to pay a sub for that.

[Chaelexi]

Let me just correct you on one thing.
I am a fan of the Warcraft franchise. and Warcraft was never built around what you claim it was.
It was meant to be a self sustaining evnironment where you could (if you wanted to) work with other.
Nowadays it is not only necessary but it is impossible to go through WoW without grouping with 5-10-15-20 people
I want to be self sustaining and I want to be able to play the game solo if I want or group if I want and I do not
like the feeling of being forced to do something I do not like, what it WoW suddenly made PvP to a certain degree
necessary for flying for example, lots and lots of people thats not PvP would buck like a new broncho, but in
this case as in everywhere else they would have to submit to the forced gameplay they do not wish.
So yeah, I want to group 5 man, but I do not like to sit around and wait for 10 man just to clear the storyline
so thats why i would say to make storyline be available for 5 man and not only for raids. No matter LFR etc
I done those a LOT and 60% ends with either the tank don't know what to do, or healers not pumping out heals
enough or dps is shiet. 5 man is easy to control 10 man, not so much. So yeah, give up 5 man raids like Kharazhan
but with end game content. and by end game I ofc mean the storyline endgame, the rest tier stuff etc can be left over for those
who want to raid etc and wanna show off their shiny new toys.

LEts see, the story in vanilla started with the DI dwarves trying to access power from the Molten Core which awoke Rag in the Molten Core and began a fire elemental invasion, while this was happening Onyxia was trying to influence the stormwind leaders. After your removed those threats, Ony's big brother became angry and with the help of the Orcs he set on taking revenge so the heros had to deal with the big brother. While this was going on the Trolls of ZG became angry(for one reason or another) and we had to deal with that threat. Next there was on coming bug invasion from the reaches of AQ and silithus that was fueled by an Old gods rage to destroy the world that the community needed to ready up by providing supplies for the coming war. Once we were ready we busted down those doors with the help of the druids and put an old god back to bed. After this the growing influence of the Undead that we were holding back from stratholme grew swtronger and set out an invasion on the world. We went to take care of that and push KT back Northrend where he belonged. On to BC, guess what most of the story there after leveling was in Raids, Illidan, the Naga's draining water from the swamps, Kael, Mag, the SUnwell. The only place that did not have a huge story influence was Kara but it was more a continuation of Naxx from the Atiesh. Same with WoTLK and every expac after that the story is told through raid. If you do not like it find something else because this has worked and if it ain't broken don't fix it.

[RoKPaNda]

nobody cares dude

also this is an MMO designed for raids from the ground up, 70% of the development time goes into that. Lore has always been big in the raids, thats what the raids do. Deal with it. Don't like it? Play a singleplayer game.

Back in BC nobody cried as much as you "casuals" do now, but i guess thats because people like you were like 10 years old back then. The player demographic changed and thanks to garbage instant gratification from these incredibly terrible mobile games, people expect the same in WoW.

Want something? Work for it.

Actually no, the MMO market changed entirely because WoW made MMOs mainstream. Prior to WoW it was a very small market for extremely hardcore gamers. WoW came out as Baby's First MMO and changed everything. It doesn't matter how much dev time goes into designing raids, raiders have always been and always will be the minority.

[purebalance]

First of all allow me to say that I am a casual player that enjoyes the AH game and earning gold etc.

Now... those who say that casual players should NOT have access to everything...
in some manner you are right, those who are interested in raids and to excell should be rewarded
BUT.... the mistake Blizzard does is to have lore endings, ending of lore storytelling within the raids
it is a great mistake because those who raids are not often interested in the lore ending or the movies
they just want to get the loot and to excell at doing hard modes and harder content.

solution is simple, change the game so that lore ending etc will be made solo content, for example
SWTOR has started with solo flashpoints, means that you can do solo things thats normally 5 man
and that is for pushing storyline onwards and does not have to be raiding

That accomplishes the difference that the raider people wants, they get their super raids with bosses
that does not necessarily have to do with the end of the storline. There can be made other bosses
and there are, but they also combine with such events that the casual player wants to see.

So, separate the casual content, storylinbe content from the raid content and everyone will be happy.
The raider can do storyline and solo mode if he/she wants and still be able to raid and do hard modes etc
while the casual player can plodd around doing his/her stuff and continue with the storyline
and everyone is happy. no?

anyone find anything bad with my reasoning?

Casual players have access to everything without making something stupidly easy. Many games since the inception of gaming rewarded lore based things for players who completed games on the higher difficulty.

Also, it's not "those who hate casuals," but rather supposed casuals hate others who are better than them. Casuals created the idea of "special snowflakes" because they were jealous and hateful.

[Vynny]

The problem is that the lore and the feeling that the gameplay provides are intrinsically linked together. Imagine how much less epic it would feel if the Lich King was killed in a dungeon with 5 people or even in solo content that was as difficult as our artifact quests. That'd do a disservice to the story and lore to downplay the strength and power of a character like that for the sake of letting everyone experiencing it.

I mean, in what other medium would you ask a creator to dumb down their content to the level of the least driven and least adept potential consumers of it? Would you ask a novelist to simplify their language, cut down on the page count, and limit their vocabulary so that readers of all calibers could partake in their work? Would you ask a director to take out complex character interactions, remove sophisticated themes, limit the number of characters, and limit the range of characters in the work so as to allow even the least devoted fan the ability to pick apart the movie for all that it is? Would you ask a musician to restrict the number of notes in a piece, take out time changes, and simplify the chords, melodies, and harmonies so that even those with the most untrained ears and lowest musical knowledge can fully grasp the musical complexity of a song. If you wouldn't ask those creators to neuter their work then why are you asking the devs to neuter WoW?

For example, I would like to read Tolkien's complete works, but I personally find reading to be boring and don't want to devote the hours it would take to read all of his books. Now I have three options, I can overcome my lack of personal interest in leisure reading and dive into the series, accept that my personal preferences and unwillingness/inability to devote hours upon hours into reading are what is keeping me from indulging in his works, or I could complain and ask that it be neutered so that my disinterested and impatient ass can feel as though I've read Tolkien's works without having to actually devote the time and effort necessary to experience them in their full glory. I think that I've made clear which option I find least acceptable, but in case I haven't, here it is: If you wish to enjoy something then by all means do so, but if it's not for you then it's not for you and don't piss on the media and everyone else who enjoys it just because you personally can't invest the time and effort necessary to partake in it either due to lack of time or lack of will.

[Deleted]

You missed the point.

No, you keep missing it.

[Vargas]

Casual players have access to everything without making something stupidly easy. Many games since the inception of gaming rewarded lore based things for players who completed games on the higher difficulty.

Also, it's not "those who hate casuals," but rather supposed casuals hate others who are better than them. Casuals created the idea of "special snowflakes" because they were jealous and hateful.

No. That sounds more like raiders/hardcores trying to flatter themselves.

MMO-C tards constantly complain about "casuals crying out for easier content" but as I look around....I don't see that. At all. I see people asking for more options for content once they hit max level, and that's it. Before LFR and even LFD, once people got to the cap and got maxed on heroics....they quit. They got bored because there wasn't any other way for them to progress their character, and more importantly progress them on their timetable.

Raiders are not important to the success of WoW. Not even close; Blizzard could stop making raids and focus exclusively on dungeons and single-player content and be just fine. Raiders are a minority; they are not needed for WoW to be successful and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they can start making personal adjustments and come to terms with the fact that copypasting macros doesn't make them special. Blizzard themselves said flat-out that it was getting harder and harder to justify raid content with so few people actually doing it; without LFR you'd probably get only a raid or two per xpac.

Most normal people don't really care about raiders or their supposed "accomplishments"; they don't care that someone can click better than them. All they care about is enjoying the game; hardcores are the ones who try to tell people the "right" way to play the game and think they know better than everyone else when they really know fuck-all about anything. They know what they like and assume that they are the baseline normal for everything and therefore they can speak for everyone.

Blizzard isn't taking away or dumbing down anything; they are providing options to give their entire playerbase something to do. Not the 10% who demand that everyone stare at them in awe due to misguided sense of superiority.

[purebalance]

No. That sounds more like raiders/hardcores trying to flatter themselves.

MMO-C tards constantly complain about "casuals crying out for easier content" but as I look around....I don't see that. At all. I see people asking for more options for content once they hit max level, and that's it. Before LFR and even LFD, once people got to the cap and got maxed on heroics....they quit. They got bored because there wasn't any other way for them to progress their character, and more importantly progress them on their timetable.

Raiders are not important to the success of WoW. Not even close; Blizzard could stop making raids and focus exclusively on dungeons and single-player content and be just fine. Raiders are a minority; they are not needed for WoW to be successful and the sooner they realize that, the sooner they can start making personal adjustments and come to terms with the fact that copypasting macros doesn't make them special. Blizzard themselves said flat-out that it was getting harder and harder to justify raid content with so few people actually doing it; without LFR you'd probably get only a raid or two per xpac.

Most normal people don't really care about raiders or their supposed "accomplishments"; they don't care that someone can click better than them. All they care about is enjoying the game; hardcores are the ones who try to tell people the "right" way to play the game and think they know better than everyone else when they really know fuck-all about anything. They know what they like and assume that they are the baseline normal for everything and therefore they can speak for everyone.

Blizzard isn't taking away or dumbing down anything; they are providing options to give their entire playerbase something to do. Not the 10% who demand that everyone stare at them in awe due to misguided sense of superiority.

Keep telling yourself that. Raiders had their gear and bad/supposedly casual players were jealous and keep demanding more and more ways for them to get what raiders have because they were jealous.

Also, raiders pay for this game, not casuals. Most mythic guilds that are the top guilds have multiple accounts which inflates the "not raiding" number often whereas a self proclaimed casual is not going to have multiple accounts. Also the raiders and pvpers get more notoriety to the game versus random joe lf"r" player.

[Faenskap]

Nobody really "hates" someone over a video game, except if you're like 15. And it also takes a very immature mind at least to assume people do.

It probably has something to do with maturity, but still, the pure hatred I've seen for other players in the game... It leaves me speechless

On MMOC people are usually more sophisticated with the trashtalking, but as a non-raider, I feel I'm being regarded as unworthy

Do people raid solely for lore though? I find that very very hard to believe.

[Deleted]

No, you keep missing it.

If that's the best reply you can come up with then our conversation is at an end. GLHF.

[Azlo]

I just don't get what the OP wants that isn't accomplished through LFR.

Turn off instance chat, and pretend the 24 other people are NPC's there to assist you in your quest. Boom. Solo content and you get to see the story.

There is no story that is blocked off by Mythic raiding. When we killed Chogall as a mythic phase, Blizzard admitted that they will never do that again.

Heck, they're even making Karazahn, Court of Stars, and Arcway queueable as heroic dungeons in a coming expansion. Then there will really be no story blocked off at all that requires interacting with other players.