Why the inferiority complex about Mage?

[Re1ax]

I love how OP cherrypicks the percentiles and then takes the manual average instead of the aggregate value on warcraftlogs just to skew the numbers towards their argument.

If you realistically look at mythic fights and compare fire mages to other range DPS:
Nythendra second after SP if you exclude mind control damage, otherwise arguably first.
Il'gynoth depends on your strategy and setup but best reliable heart DPS and probably 2nd best for outside after MM (high AoE burst for 8 stack bloods, decent burst for tentacles).
Elerethe second after SP.
Ursoc second after SP.
Dragons is hard to say because some specs excel at boss DPS (SP / destruction), some excel at lethon shade DPS (affliction / elemental / MM) whereas fire is decent at former and pretty good at latter. Definitely top 4 though.
Cenarius is hard to tell because of different strategies and most DoT classes padding on drakes.
Xavius once again has a lot of padding in P3 (for mages as well this time) but given the nature of the fight, fire mage should be #2 after SP for boss + add damage.

In the end, once Blizzard fixes S2M abuse cases (which they suggested they'd do in 7.1.5), fire is going to be the strongest range DPS spec overall again. Comparing to melee DPS makes no sense because you cannot raid mythic with only melees so you won't be competing with them for spots in most cases.

Lmao, I give a simple look at where mage stands per boss (warcraftlogs.com) and you accuse me of skewing numbers? Then you proceed to use anecdotal evidence to fit your argument. Good job, bud. See we have someone who gets beat by the mage in their raid group.

[mirodin]

Why do people have a problem with a pure dps class toping meters?

[Orwell7]

Lmao, I give a simple look at where mage stands per boss (warcraftlogs.com) and you accuse me of skewing numbers? Then you proceed to use anecdotal evidence to fit your argument. Good job, bud. See we have someone who gets beat by the mage in their raid group.

Actually using your brain is more than welcome. Fire Mage is absolutely best at ranged dps. Use warcraftlogs.com as you wish, but don't forget that mathematics and statistics aren't considered hard because it's anecdotal. Reading those logs is not just looking at nice bars.
Go check on priorities! What needs to be done, and who is good at it?

Besides numbers (which fire is really great, no ranged beats them), consider the following:
-Nyhtendra and getting out with rot easily? Grouping up easily? No mage can miss these.
-Ursoc, almost the same, got out of position and you can relocate yourself when needed.
-Elerethe, same
-on Dragons, standing in flowers, killing shades, or even going to portals and murder the add with cds
-Cenarius, you can easily dodge brambles, saving lot of mana for your healers. DPS is good as always.
-Xavius cannot be considered a hard boss, but a mage can easily exploit the dream mechanic, adds come in a pack of 3? Go and blast them away. No real contest.

Just a few examples, and I know a few other specs can capable of some of it, but a fire mage can do mechanics easily AND do top-tier dps on all priority targets, be it the brain on ilgynoth, just boss damage or whatever you want. You cannot name a single weakness, and that's why Fire Mage is the best all-around ranged spec.

[GT4]

Lmao, I give a simple look at where mage stands per boss (warcraftlogs.com) and you accuse me of skewing numbers? Then you proceed to use anecdotal evidence to fit your argument. Good job, bud. See we have someone who gets beat by the mage in their raid group.

I'm our main tank you fucking moron. You cherry picked the percentile because that's the one where mages perform the worst and then chose not to take warcraftlogs' aggregated number because it would still put mages at like #3 overall. The reason I didn't even attempt to use warcraftlogs numbers is because ultimately they don't reflect the strength of the classes as much as it does how well the classes can pad damage for a lot of fights. What I'm talking about isn't anecdotal evidence either but based on how mages perform if you analyze logs properly, e.g. player damage to bosses for boss damage and then add damage to relevant adds.

[Dulahey]

I'm fine with people saying reroll mage. Mage should be close to the top of the meters. They are a pure dps class.

Mage, Hunter, Warlock and Rogue should always top the charts. Hybrids should be next. Close, but next.

[Aliven]

I'm fine with people saying reroll mage. Mage should be close to the top of the meters. They are a pure dps class.

Mage, Hunter, Warlock and Rogue should always top the charts. Hybrids should be next. Close, but next.

No. It should all be balanced. Certain specs should shine at certain aspects of gameplay. You dont get passive dps boost because you play single role class. You choose to have 3 options at dpsing. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Deleted]

Why do people have a problem with a pure dps class toping meters?

I will never understand why anyone would think that way. It's so weird.
All DPS specs should be equal, period. I want to DPS, I'm interested in...let's say fury warrior, cause it sounds just cool and it says it's a DPS spec, why shouldn't I be allowed to be competitive with other DPS specs ? Because Warriors can also tank ? I don't care about tanking. Or Healing. I want to DPS, that's it.
Or maybe the description for the fury spec should be : "A furious berserker wielding a weapon in each hand, unleashing a flurry of attacks to carve his opponents to pieces. Warning : Warriors can also tank so you won't be able to deal as much damage as mages, rogues, hunters or warlocks".
Doesn't that sound stupid to you ?

[Orrin]

Cant actually imagine a time in WoW where Mages werent having a good time, additionally the visuals are top quality.

Half of Burning Crusade
Whole of MoP - thanks to level 90 talents

[Deleted]

These are the current ranks for Fire Mage from Mythic EN 95 percentile:

Here's you problem.
Very VERY few people play at this level and therefore don't care what these ranks show. What they care about is how their own numbers compare to others at their own level.

Should tuning be based around what the few top % players achieve or around what the vast majority of players achieve?

I don't know the answer but i'm gonna tell you that at lower levels mages do very well and that is what MOST people see when they play the game.

[Sylvaeres]

Here's something I'm sure everyone has seen:
"Should just all re-roll mage gg"
"Mage is soooo OP cuz everyone at Blizz mains them"
Etc etc etc, you get it. And it seems much more frequent lately. My question is why?

These are the current ranks for Fire Mage from Mythic EN 95 percentile:
Nythendra: 12th
Elerethe: 3rd
Ursoc: 9th
Dragons: 3rd
Il'Gynoth: 15th
Cenarius: 20th
Xavius: 3rd
Average: 9th

I think its fair to say Xavius is Mage's best fight, and they still get dumpstered by Spriest.
To be clear, I am not saying Mage sucks. They've been in a good place. I am simply trying to figure out where everyone else's inferiority complex is coming from. Mage IS NOT the best based on any actual numbers. Is this just a mindset that has carried over from the Beta? Is it just because Mage is reliably solid? People act like Mage is tuned as a God amongst men and the numbers just don't support the narrative..

Because for a year + Arcane was the absolute dominant spec and it didn't change whatsoever

[Imnick]

Everyone including mages has an inferiority complex.
Everyone thinks their class is the worst, the most despised by Blizzard, constantly shit on.

WoW's playerbase is babies, basically.

[Fojos]

I love how OP cherrypicks the percentiles and then takes the manual average instead of the aggregate value on warcraftlogs just to skew the numbers towards their argument.

If you realistically look at mythic fights and compare fire mages to other range DPS:
Nythendra second after SP if you exclude mind control damage, otherwise arguably first.
Il'gynoth depends on your strategy and setup but best reliable heart DPS and probably 2nd best for outside after MM (high AoE burst for 8 stack bloods, decent burst for tentacles).
Elerethe second after SP.
Ursoc second after SP.
Dragons is hard to say because some specs excel at boss DPS (SP / destruction), some excel at lethon shade DPS (affliction / elemental / MM) whereas fire is decent at former and pretty good at latter. Definitely top 4 though.
Cenarius is hard to tell because of different strategies and most DoT classes padding on drakes.
Xavius once again has a lot of padding in P3 (for mages as well this time) but given the nature of the fight, fire mage should be #2 after SP for boss + add damage.

In the end, once Blizzard fixes S2M abuse cases (which they suggested they'd do in 7.1.5), fire is going to be the strongest range DPS spec overall again. Comparing to melee DPS makes no sense because you cannot raid mythic with only melees so you won't be competing with them for spots in most cases.

You don't even follow the evidence.

Nythendra fire mage is number ten.
Il'gynoth number 14.
Elerethe number five.
Ursoc ten.
Dragons four.
Cenarius almost last.
Xavius number two, and most of it is due to padding.

Just because you feel something is like this (like the other players being shit in your guild) doesn't mean it's the reality.

The only fights in this tier where fire mages are really strong is Dragons and Elerethe.

[Deleted]

These are the current ranks for Fire Mage from Mythic EN 95 percentile:

Here's you problem.
Very VERY few people play at this level and therefore don't care what these ranks show. What they care about is how their own numbers compare to others at their own level.

Should tuning be based around what the few top % players achieve or around what the vast majority of players achieve?

I don't know the answer but i'm gonna tell you that at lower levels mages do very well and that is what MOST people see when they play the game.

You can't say tuning is bad only because bad players don't know what buttons to press on their class, I get that most people in this game are casuals but jesus give me afucking brake, we gotta draw the line somewhere.

[Deleted]

Actually using your brain is more than welcome. Fire Mage is absolutely best at ranged dps. Use warcraftlogs.com as you wish, but don't forget that mathematics and statistics aren't considered hard because it's anecdotal. Reading those logs is not just looking at nice bars.
Go check on priorities! What needs to be done, and who is good at it?

Besides numbers (which fire is really great, no ranged beats them), consider the following:
-Nyhtendra and getting out with rot easily? Grouping up easily? No mage can miss these.
-Ursoc, almost the same, got out of position and you can relocate yourself when needed.
-Elerethe, same
-on Dragons, standing in flowers, killing shades, or even going to portals and murder the add with cds
-Cenarius, you can easily dodge brambles, saving lot of mana for your healers. DPS is good as always.
-Xavius cannot be considered a hard boss, but a mage can easily exploit the dream mechanic, adds come in a pack of 3? Go and blast them away. No real contest.

Just a few examples, and I know a few other specs can capable of some of it, but a fire mage can do mechanics easily AND do top-tier dps on all priority targets, be it the brain on ilgynoth, just boss damage or whatever you want. You cannot name a single weakness, and that's why Fire Mage is the best all-around ranged spec.

You talk like the mage's ability to continue casting when movement is required is somehow not made up for in the damage their spells do. Pretty weak argument.

Mechanics don't matter, the DPS at the end matters. And mages are pretty middle of the pack there.

Use your brain. It'd be welcome.

[mirodin]

I will never understand why anyone would think that way. It's so weird.
All DPS specs should be equal, period. I want to DPS, I'm interested in...let's say fury warrior, cause it sounds just cool and it says it's a DPS spec, why shouldn't I be allowed to be competitive with other DPS specs ? Because Warriors can also tank ? I don't care about tanking. Or Healing. I want to DPS, that's it.
Or maybe the description for the fury spec should be : "A furious berserker wielding a weapon in each hand, unleashing a flurry of attacks to carve his opponents to pieces. Warning : Warriors can also tank so you won't be able to deal as much damage as mages, rogues, hunters or warlocks".
Doesn't that sound stupid to you ?

I would like all DPS specs to be competitve and equal and as you said when you chose to DPS you don't care that your class can tank or heal. But i think Blizzard doesn't see it like that and one of the reason is that hybrid's retain some of the tools and abilites from their other roles. Paladins, Druids, Shamans, Priests, Monks all have healing spells, utility spells and CD's that as a pure dps class you don't get. Since we are in the mage forum, as a mage i have 1 raid wide cd (Time warp) 0 self healing, only blink if you are fire and that was nerfed. Other then DPS we bring nothing to a group, no combat rez, no buff, no AoE stun, you can get a stun if you spec frost and take glacial shard, 1 good cc and aoe snare and aoe disorient. All of the things we bring don't work on bosses, so without the good dps the only time mages would find raid spots is if there is no BL bringing class in the raid.

In my opinion, hybrid classes should sacrifice their utility for dps. That means no self heals with no cd, defensive cd revision and limited raid utility. That will butcher the class identity for some specs and something im sure blizzard doesn't want. Even tho most of the players that chose to DPS have no interest in the other roles that the class can fulfill they still retain some tools from the other roles.

No. It should all be balanced. Certain specs should shine at certain aspects of gameplay. You dont get passive dps boost because you play single role class. You choose to have 3 options at dpsing. Thats it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Is not as simple as that. Almost all if not all hybrids bring raid utility, be it a raid wide cd, or a single target cd, that can not be ignored. For example Retri paladin, they bring BoF, BoP, 3 Greater Blessings, Lay on Hands, and for themselves they have the most powerful CD in the game. Druids are probably better then retri since they even have a talent that enhances their hybrid nature, and i cba continuing to other classes. In the current state, if every class does same dps the result will most likely be that the specs that bring most raid utility get raid spots.

[Deleted]

They're #1 for AoE. They're top tier range DPS for single target. They're top tier range DPS for cleave. They have the best mobility of all range DPS. They can cheese mechanics with ice block.

If SPs didn't have S2M in its current state (which is likely to be changed in 7.1.5), fire mages would be the uncontested winner when it comes to range DPS even after just having been nerfed.

- - - Updated - - -



Balance was strong throughout all of Cataclysm. Ironically, having said that, they were horrible for arguably the hardest fight in Cata (spine of deathwing) so ultimately you were still better off with a mage overall.

Well there was always that problem with Fire mage till this expansion. They never did any damage when you were a freshly leveled mage or even in dugeon and crafted gear. But when you got your crit from your raid gear then it was stupidly broken. Just left every DPS in the group behind by like 15%. I like the fire spec very much and i like where it is now. Arguing it has less scaling but more overall damage so it's very good without and with gear but i still miss that wildfire effect where i was bottom of the list and had to play frost for 4/5 reset weeks. and then kablooey

[Narzok]

i think it's funny how some people define the viablilty of a specc solely by it's dps.

so if i bomb the ungodly sh*t out of useless adds i'm king? cool!

i really hope 1 of the coming bosses will REALLY punish useless padding
something like Nazgrim's defensive stance, but for a myriad of adds: "tank a gazillion trashmobs, but don't do dmg or you wipe"

would be hilarious xD

[Kithelle]

Because Blizzard devs really do play mages and mages always do well or excel at just about everything. They're Blizzard's golden child and the favoritism is painfully obvious.

Yup...they still have just about every single little itsy bitsy bit of utility they've had since forever while they simultaneously gut the utility, survival, and damage of Warlock.

Mages have always been in the sun because they devs love them and develop the game they want, not what the customers want.

[mirodin]

Yup...they still have just about every single little itsy bitsy bit of utility they've had since forever while they simultaneously gut the utility, survival, and damage of Warlock.

Wait what, did you just compare Warlocs utility with Mages. The class that brings Healtstones, Combat rez, a fucking in combat teleport, a dmg cd, insane absorb and a non cd based self heal. I'm not even gonna start on the fucking pets.

[Zerenty]

The numbers you are pulling out doesn't really reflect the spec.

Sure fire mage might be 9th overall, but from what i can see it seems to be in the top 5 of all dps specs, yes they have been nerfed and fallen a little, but it is still an amazing spec that does well in any difficulty of content.