Trial of Valor is Overtuned

[Normie]

Blizzard never said that, you are misinterpreting an old message about flex difficulty. Blizzard said something to the effect of "you can bring your friends, who would have to be benched on normal, to flex".

What they meant was: normal (today's heroic) only supports 10 player (or 25 player) mode. If you have a group of 14 people, 4 of them will have to be benched. Additionally, the normal difficulty (today's hc) is relatively difficult, the new flex is going to be between LFR and normal.

Is today's normal flexible in terms of number of players? Yes, it is.
Is its difficulty between LFR and heroic? Yes, it is.
That's all Blizzard said.

Did you actually play the game back in MoP?

[Deleted]

We're a very casual heroic raiding guild, with a core of players that run regular mythic+ runs a week.

We killed Odyn and Guarm on Heroic today with 11 players and bar Helya, our average item level was above the rewards made available to us. Despite this, I myself found 2 non insignificant upgrades, which makes me happy that Blizzard buffed the rewards. We failed to get passed Helya due to us not having enough players for the mechanics of the fight (we were down to 10 players 2-3-5).

The jump in difficulty from the first two bosses and Helya is very high and at least a 2-3-9 setup is highly recommended for heroic only raiding guilds with around 350-400k dps ST and around 400-500k aoe dps.

If you're a good player or play an insanely good class with decent legendary items and are part of a good roster of 15-20 players who are averaging near 880, then Heroic presents a good challenge, for the rewards however, I can't see us continuing to push Helya when we can clear mythic 10+ and roll the dice at a decent 880+ item from a larger and significant item pool.

For our guild, Helya may prove too difficult for us at the moment given our numbers in our active roster. In terms of pugging players... we'd be in the minority for sure.

[JackHunter42]

Helya was full of steam and passion back when it was the first heroic week of ToV.
She hit like a truck and took us a few hours.
Now after all the nerfs she's not even fun with our tanks complaining of them having nothing to do in the last phase on Heroic difficulty.
In my opinion nerfs were too singnificant.

[Akakishin]

Yep. I want normal mode to be at a difficulty where it achieves what blizzard says they want.

if I want to raid more hardcore, exclude people set ilvl reqs I have heroic already. I don'#t need another progression raid. No one does.


You are wrong.

You know you are wrong.

Please stop.

I dont think he's wrong. Naxx 10 apart, every other single nm mode raid doesn't fit your idea. So blizzard designed like 17 other instances after nax ehich are not the way you deacribe, then we have en which is too easy to exist and blizzard realizes and fixed that ij tov, but you special snowflake now want everyone to believe that 2 out of past 20, 21 raid instances are the facto here? He's right and you're wrong. Even 10 man in wotlk wasnt what you say. You couldn't ignore mechanics and play half ass.
And I cant wait for nighthold just to prove you blizzard doesnt give a fuk about someone like you cuz they already designed something for you aka lfr. Go play Tera it has nice looking girls and awesome vistas with some ignore mechanics pve in it. Fits your type of game. Oh w8...

[Tang0]

Well, there's a blue post backing me up on the front page, but I'm pretty sure you will make some half-assed excuses Again.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/8445111

And then there’s LFR. Ultimately, LFR raids are designed to be completed by groups of players that qualify to queue for them. This does not mean that it should be impossible to fail, but unlike our Normal and Heroic raids, which are designed as progressions of increasing difficulty, LFR is designed to have a flat level of difficulty within each wing

RIP

[JV Chequer]

Yes it's overtuned by a low-medium margin on Mythic but it's.

Since Guarm it's a 890 drop ilvl boss and you can't kill with without a great comp and 885+ilvl or everyone with 35 points It's pretty obvious that things are not balanced.
Maybe a 5% nerf on whole instance would balance pretty much everything, not sure on Helya tho since I'm progressing through Mythic Guarm

Normal mode its just OK. Heroic mode maybe Helya was a bit overtuned but got nerfed so it's probably fine now.

[shaunika123]

Yes it's overtuned by a low-medium margin on Mythic but it's.

Since Guarm it's a 890 drop ilvl boss and you can't kill with without a great comp and 885+ilvl or everyone with 35 points It's pretty obvious that things are not balanced.
Maybe a 5% nerf on whole instance would balance pretty much everything, not sure on Helya tho since I'm progressing through Mythic Guarm

Normal mode its just OK. Heroic mode maybe Helya was a bit overtuned but got nerfed so it's probably fine now.

ToV was specifically designed for people who had mythic EN on farm, and it's there to keep them busy till nighthold, it wasnt designed to be "easy"
and since we've wiped less on both mythic odyn and mythic guarn than on cenarius, i can safely say it's not really overtuned in any way.

Helya is total bullshit though, but she gives an extra 5ilvl, and she is a final boss afterall, people are just used to xavius sucking :P
we're on a 100+ wipes on her and didnt even get to P2 yet (ofc we only have 1 shadowpriest in the guild and only 2 hunters so our teamcomp sucks major dick but still)
i expect she'll take over 300 wipes similar to archimonde

[PosPosPos]

You can, if it's false advertising. Nowhere did it say "Legion features: Normal mode raiding where you can go afk and get sweet gear"

No, but the developers have promised that normal mode raiding would be that "family and friends can enjoy without having to min max every tiny detail".

Also, when you can link a log where bosses in normal mode die after all members in the raiding team are afk the whole encounter, you can have your point, otherwise, all of us here will just summarily dismiss you as a prejudiced blizzard apologist.

[iky43210]

Yes it's overtuned by a low-medium margin on Mythic but it's.

Since Guarm it's a 890 drop ilvl boss and you can't kill with without a great comp and 885+ilvl or everyone with 35 points It's pretty obvious that things are not balanced.
Maybe a 5% nerf on whole instance would balance pretty much everything, not sure on Helya tho since I'm progressing through Mythic Guarm

Normal mode its just OK. Heroic mode maybe Helya was a bit overtuned but got nerfed so it's probably fine now.

mythic TOV is probably about the same difficulty than most other raids in prior expansions, if not slightly easier.

[PosPosPos]

Well, there's a blue post backing me up on the front page, but I'm pretty sure you will make some half-assed excuses Again.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/8445111


RIP

And so? It's obviously meant to scale up, but within reason, which you ignored because it suits your narrative. Cherry picking doesn't do you any justice, sorry.

[Meiffert]

Did you actually play the game back in MoP?

I did.

Since Guarm it's a 890 drop ilvl boss and you can't kill with without a great comp and 885+ilvl or everyone with 35 points It's pretty obvious that things are not balanced.

Did you kill Archimonde without the legendary rings or Garrosh without the cloak?
Why do you suddenly want to kill Helya without the 35th trait? It's the same thing.
Method barely managed both of these feats, guilds beyond top 10 will have to wait a couple weeks to get them.

Guarm seemed easier than Butcher as far as gear checks go. I was actually wiping on Butcher sub 5 % to berserk. On Guarm we had some pulls to learn the dispelling and stuff, but pretty much the first time nobody died, the boss did (admittedly at 3:59 on a 4 minute enrage fight, but still). That was with only few (maybe 5) players having the 35th trait. With exponential scaling on AK, it's going to be very easy to get the 5 % trait over the holidays if you are stuck now.

No, but the developers have promised that normal mode raiding would be that "family and friends can enjoy without having to min max every tiny detail".

Also, when you can link a log where bosses in normal mode die after all members in the raiding team are afk the whole encounter, you can have your point, otherwise, all of us here will just summarily dismiss you as a prejudiced blizzard apologist.

Why should we link a fight where you kill a normal boss while afk? We think that it should not be possible. Because that's what LFR is for.

I'm more interesting in your log of a group that had to min max every single detail just to barely manage normal.

It's obviously meant to scale up, but within reason.

Well, ok.
It's obviously hard to argue, because we disagree on what the game should be rather than what it is. There are many opinions and I can't tell you what you prefer.

As far as difficulty goes, we can't do much more than compare it to the difficulty of previous instances.
Some examples from my personal experience: normal t11 was harder than heroic ToV. Heroic Blackrock Foundry and Hellfire Citadel were harder than heroic ToV.
On the other hand, normal Firelands and Dragonsoul were easier than heroic ToV and heroic EN was obviously easier as well.
Overall I would rate ToV to be about average difficulty when compared to raids since the normal/heroic multiple difficulties were introduced.

I would also say though, that since the extra flex normal difficulty was added, heroic has been made slightly harder (to make room for the new normal to fit nicely between LFR and heroic). As you compare the ToV difficulty only to the previous expansion (Highmaul, BRF and HFC), I would actually rate it a bit on the easier side.
Yes, it might seem hard because of EN, but that's because EN was severely undertuned, not the other way around.


I'm also interested to know what exactly is the problem though? We can disagree where the difficulties should be, but why don't guilds just step down and do one lower?
To me it seems to be more of an ego problem of sorts. "We cleared heroic EN, therefore we are a heroic guild now. Normal is below me and I refuse to run it seriously."

I can understand that admitting to others and even to themselves that they aren't as good as they thought can be hard for many people. After all, this overestimating of ones ability and reluctance to admit that I'm not that good is the only reason games like poker can even exist.

That being said I strongly disagree that Normal should be the same difficulty as LFR, minus the queue, as some are advocating.
That would be a waste of a progression step. The good thing about having more varying difficulties is that more people can find one that suits them.

[Tang0]

And so? It's obviously meant to scale up, but within reason, which you ignored because it suits your narrative. Cherry picking doesn't do you any justice, sorry.

But it IS within reason. Providing the link and highlighting the main idea isn't cherry picking. If you had any reasonable degree of literacy you would be able to read the entirety of that blogpost, and nowhere does it say anything contrary to what I'm saying or have been saying since the beginning of the thread.

But that's not what you want to hear, so being in heavy denial facts are choking you, so you try to come up with mute points.

The discussion regarding difficulty tiers and who is entitled to what is pretty much over at this point.

ToV is overtuned only for the 10~ish raid group with 2 healers, nothing further than that, especially after the nerf.
Don't want to put even a little effort into progress - go do lfr. Case closed.

Still haven't seen any meaningful contribution to the topic from you btw. Saying "it's overtuned because I can't do it" is not a valid way to present an opinion outside of lfr threads.

[Echocho]

This is anecdotal at best but my guild finally managed to kill Helya HC, the nerfs to the adds in P2 helped a lot. We are around 880 iLvl across the board. After experiencing the raid it occurs to me that doing the raid in the 865 gear from EN HC or even the gear that drops from ToV HC is pretty much impossible for your average guild. You need luck with RNG in the forms of titanforging, sockets and legendaries. I'm not sure how I feel about raid progress being determined this much based on luck.

[Deleted]

Well, there's a blue post backing me up on the front page, but I'm pretty sure you will make some half-assed excuses Again.

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/news/8445111


RIP

That was mop, specifically the Mogu shan tier.

Normal mode raids then were the equivalent of heroic raids now. Flexible (now normal) hadn't been invented yet.

-

So we went last night and one shot ToV on normal because my guys really don't want to do mythic. We did this by leaving people behind and only taking our strongest players. Shit design.

-

I also notice that they have admitted that heroic ToV isn't tuned for heroic raiders. Its tuned for would be mythic raiders who have attendance issues. That normal tov is overtuned is ofc, a given.

- - - Updated - - -

And so? It's obviously meant to scale up, but within reason, which you ignored because it suits your narrative. Cherry picking doesn't do you any justice, sorry.

A raid with average 860 ish loot are not killing odyn any time soon. Even if they survive all the mechanics, they'll die of old age before whittling down his enormous health pool.

Its overtuned - and based on the front page, its deliberately overtuned and designed for groups who want a challenge. Blizzard are apparently incapable of learning from past mistakes.

[Tang0]

A raid with average 860 ish loot are not killing odyn any time soon. Even if they survive all the mechanics, they'll die of old age before whittling down his enormous health pool.

Its overtuned - and based on the front page, its deliberately overtuned and designed for groups who want a challenge. Blizzard are apparently incapable of learning from past mistakes.

We've established that your raid is below average skill-wise. No insult here, just a stated fact. You managed to kill him in 865 raid. 860 is pretty reasonable I'd say for a moderately easy kill. As per comparison it took us 6 pulls after day1 nerf in a pug of average 871 to kill him on HC, and he's by far a lot more difficult there. And all those ilvls are by design obtainable by the time you logically arrive at that progress point. Helya is slightly above the raid difficulty curve but she has a higher ilvl drops to complement that.

Weird to see people bitching about no actual rewards, many classes have BiS relics and a lot of perfect-stated gear dropping from that place. Any sensible person will take 875 mastery/crit item over 880 crit/mastery is the stat priority is right.

[Deleted]

The problem is not the difficulty, it's the reward. When you spend 3 hours rekilling Mythic Helya and the reward is 50kap, while guild socials had gained 500kap from dungeons in the same time, the system is fucked.

Mythic raiding is a huge time investment. AP should rain from the sky in there.

[Deleted]

We've established that your raid is below average skill-wise. No insult here, just a stated fact.

yes, I know. I stated it.

You managed to kill him in 865 raid. 860 is pretty reasonable I'd say for a moderately easy kill. As per comparison it took us 6 pulls after day1 nerf in a pug of average 871 to kill him on HC, and he's by far a lot more difficult there. And all those ilvls are by design obtainable by the time you logically arrive at that progress point. Helya is slightly above the raid difficulty curve but she has a higher ilvl drops to complement that.

We killed it by not bringing the weaker players. This is definitionally overtuned because I'm supposed to be able to bring them.

Your pug was ofc, comprised of hardcore raiders who were all great players.

Weird to see people bitching about no actual rewards, many classes have BiS relics and a lot of perfect-stated gear dropping from that place. Any sensible person will take 875 mastery/crit item over 880 crit/mastery is the stat priority is right.

875?

I'm only talking about normal mate, which is hilariously, ridiculously overtuned.

[KaPe]

The problem is not the difficulty, it's the reward. When you spend 3 hours rekilling Mythic Helya and the reward is 50kap, while guild socials had gained 500kap from dungeons in the same time, the system is fucked.

Mythic raiding is a huge time investment. AP should rain from the sky in there.

The very least they could do is to make AP tokens guaranteed drop in raids. It would still be inferior to dungeon spam, but at least you'd get a decent chunk once a week. But I guess it's the same thing as in WoD - "we can't possibly give you Valor Points for raiding, since you won't bother doing LFR or daily heroics! Now go chase some squirrels for same AP as Mythic raid boss."

[Cynep]

The problem is not the difficulty, it's the reward. When you spend 3 hours rekilling Mythic Helya and the reward is 50kap, while guild socials had gained 500kap from dungeons in the same time, the system is fucked.

Mythic raiding is a huge time investment. AP should rain from the sky in there.

We can agree to disagree, but my casual guild and I are killing raid bosses for the fun of winning the fights, and we're farming AP in more lucrative places to kill raid bosses more easily. Mythic raiding is more about prestige than efficient farm rate IMHO. You can disagree of course, it's just an opinion of one guild among many.

[KaPe]

We can agree to disagree, but my casual guild and I are killing raid bosses for the fun of winning the fights, and we're farming AP in more lucrative places to kill raid bosses more easily. Mythic raiding is more about prestige than efficient farm rate IMHO. You can disagree of course, it's just an opinion of one guild among many.

Prestige is the first kill, not repeated ones. (with the possible exception of World First guild getting 2nd kill as well, but that's like 20 people) When farming, you want rewards, instead of groaning to yourself and thinking "I could earn ten times as much AP spamming Maw of Souls and that Helya is trivial." It's also true for EN, however increased difficulty has made the issue more obvious.

However, that is an entirely different bag of worms. It will return Blizzard adds new traits and they turn out to be mandatory, thus "forcing" people to spam dungeons for few months once again.