Getting reaquainted with Sub....

[Blayke]

...and I have a few questions.

First, I realize that DS>Vigor, but Vigor makes the spec easier to play while I'm still re-familiarizing myself with it. My question is, just how MUCH of a dps loss is Vigor in 866 gear?

Second, I've read here and there (including on MMOC) that Weaponmaster is now the talent of choice over over our old friend Master of Subtlety. This seemed awfully counter-intuitive until I read that the second proc either hits or crits for 15X damage (not sure which it is). But there was also concern (at least at the time) that this was a bug. So any clarification on that issue would really be appreciated.

As always, thanks for any and all help.

[SeyserKoze]

I don't run simulations or anything but I can tell you that the more you play with DS rather than Vigor, the more you will get used to "SS SS Finisher SS SS". Vigor feels a little better but it's not worth it in the long run. You just gotta keep playing with DS and it'll click eventually, like most things.

Sometimes, for whatever reason, it feels like the Finisher between the four SS's doesn't return enough energy. That sometimes leads to one lost SS. I'm not sure if that's unavoidable without the legendary boots or maybe I'm not pooling correctly. I don't have the boots by the way.

[Blayke]

I don't run simulations or anything but I can tell you that the more you play with DS rather than Vigor, the more you will get used to "SS SS Finisher SS SS". Vigor feels a little better but it's not worth it in the long run. You just gotta keep playing with DS and it'll click eventually, like most things.

Sometimes, for whatever reason, it feels like the Finisher between the four SS's doesn't return enough energy. That sometimes leads to one lost SS. I'm not sure if that's unavoidable without the legendary boots or maybe I'm not pooling correctly. I don't have the boots by the way.

Thanks for that. Now can anyone answer my second question about weaponmaster?

[Lafdet]

Thanks for that. Now can anyone answer my second question about weaponmaster?

Weaponmaster doing more damage than intended was only with one ability: Goremaw's bite. The damage done was about 10x the normal amount and instead of 200k you would crit for 2M+. That has been fixed however, or at least I have not experienced it anymore. Still weaponmaster is one of the best talents, if not the best. Simming your character always helps, however just think of even at times getting that 1.3M evis. free for a second time.

http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/ is a good tool for all rogues out there. Embrace it.

As for future questions. I highly suggest you join the rogue class discord, many questions are answered there in the pinned posts, and the individuals posting information are mostly knowledge able. Fierydemise being one of those.

https://discord.gg/0h08tydxoNhfDVZf

[aGit]

Weaponmaster doing more damage than intended was only with one ability: Goremaw's bite. The damage done was about 10x the normal amount and instead of 200k you would crit for 2M+. That has been fixed however, or at least I have not experienced it anymore.

the weaponmaster bug with artifact ability is still around.

http://imgur.com/a/qM7fX

this was a few days ago.

[Lafdet]

the weaponmaster bug with artifact ability is still around.

http://imgur.com/a/qM7fX

this was a few was like 2 days ago.

Fair enough, my bad on that part. However those who say that it makes or breaks the talent. You have to consider it's a 6% chance on an ability with 60 sec cd. Also as far as I aware (don't quote me on that) sims do not count in bugs in results, thus = Weaponmaster even without a bug is the thing to go for.

[elfporn]

Fair enough, my bad on that part. However those who say that it makes or breaks the talent. You have to consider it's a 6% chance on an ability with 60 sec cd. Also as far as I aware (don't quote me on that) sims do not count in bugs in results, thus = Weaponmaster even without a bug is the thing to go for.

it's a well known "bug" so well known that there's the theory that it's intended as sub's hidden artifact ability/trait.

[Lafdet]

it's a well known "bug" so well known that there's the theory that it's intended as sub's hidden artifact ability/trait.

All the same, bug or not it is highly unlikely that one proc of an abiltiy with a one minute cooldown makes on particular talent or breaks it, especially if you consider you usually get about 5 casts off per fight.

Interesting theory though, about it not being a bug per say, will be fun to see if we get an answer or any clarification on that in 7.1.5 notes.

[Kaluna]

It's very fun in PvP to proc Goremaw's Bite on a player.
But about the bug, has anyone ever landed a 1,5M+ Goremaw's Bite in Battlegrounds or Arena ?
I have never. So I think it is not a bug but intended for PvE / Outdoor PvP.

[Rollthebones]

It's very fun in PvP to proc Goremaw's Bite on a player.
But about the bug, has anyone ever landed a 1,5M+ Goremaw's Bite in Battlegrounds or Arena ?
I have never. So I think it is not a bug but intended for PvE / Outdoor PvP.

Not 1,5M but 800k roflcopters i have done, leaving me doing a evil laugh on that DH trying to 1shot me.

[Blayke]

it's a well known "bug" so well known that there's the theory that it's intended as sub's hidden artifact ability/trait.

From yesterday's hotfixes:

"Rogue: Weaponmaster no longer causes Goremaw's Bite to deal excessive damage when it activates."

So that's an end to that, I guess.

So does this push MoS ahead of WM? Seems to me that an almost constant 10% damage increase is preferable to a 6% chance to have an attack land twice. Looked at another way, that means 94% of the time that proc isn't going to happen.

[elfporn]

From yesterday's hotfixes:

"Rogue: Weaponmaster no longer causes Goremaw's Bite to deal excessive damage when it activates."

So that's an end to that, I guess.

So does this push MoS ahead of WM? Seems to me that an almost constant 10% damage increase is preferable to a 6% chance to have an attack land twice. Looked at another way, that means 94% of the time that proc isn't going to happen.

Not likely. Weaponmaster being a 1:1 copy of attacks and their effects makes it very useful, not just for the damage but for the side effects, such as relentless strikes, or doubling CP gen/dmg on a Shadowstrike.

It's less predictable, but it's also that "clutch" ability that can really energize an otherwise normal rotation.

[Dokujin]

Not likely. Weaponmaster being a 1:1 copy of attacks and their effects makes it very useful, not just for the damage but for the side effects, such as relentless strikes, or doubling CP gen/dmg on a Shadowstrike.

It's less predictable, but it's also that "clutch" ability that can really energize an otherwise normal rotation.

I haven't used it much outside of pvp. I'm going to try it out tomorrow night though.

[lolpve]

it's a well known "bug" so well known that there's the theory that it's intended as sub's hidden artifact ability/trait.

It makes no sense that sub would have a hidden ability that requires a certain talent choice and that deal such an obviously gamebreaking amount of damage in pvp. It's a bug.

[Deleted]

TLDR: It's situational, in my experience there's common situations where its 30%+ DPS increase. I am 871 equipped gear.

Wall of text:
On short bosses (1 minute or less) and you have bloodlust/shadowblades up I've seen a difference (in same gear) of around 30% increase (300k dps to 400k dps, pushing 450k dps on shadow of xavius M6+ when all the stars aligned). This is because:

1) Bloodlust + 30 energy regain on shadowdances results is an abundance of energy - you're not pooling at all for 40 seconds, and the last 20 seconds you pool maybe only a few seconds, meaning the benefit of 50 extra energy at the start, and 10% energy gain becomes marginalised.
2) A rotation on each dance of SS,SS,Finisher,SS,SS,Finisher really shines for DS. The finishers will be consuming an extra combo point compared to vigor thanks to Shadowblades (20% damage increase, plus finality is 4% stronger) plus 10% extra from the talent itself (this is exagerrated even further once you have the Shadowblades trait and it lasts 25 seconds).

On AOE the same logic applies:

1) You may not have bloodlust for aoe packs, but if you're rotating Shuriken Storm / Nightblade /Eviscerate, you wont need to pool much at all thanks to 40 energy refund on finishers every 2 seconds and 30 energy from dances. This again marginalises vigor's benefit.
2) DS really shines when there's 6+ mobs for exactly the same reason as point 2 previously.

Disclaimer: I do not claim the above is how you SHOULD play sub - it's how I play sub and from these experiences I draw my anecdotal answer to OPs question.