Make PvP balanced again

[Soisoisoi]

Aren't blind and gouge part of outlaw? I thought sin had them too.
The problem is that you consider that cloak of shadow and vanish are only defensive when they are not. Especially cloak, its an absolute game breaker against casters and "just" lets them smash you for 5 seconds with no effort needed. I don't care for that ability when I play hunter or DK, but as a caster? Its pure offensive cooldown

Also vanish resets the fight so its pretty strong too.

Outlaw has Blind and Gouge; Subtlety has Blind, but not Gouge; Assassination has neither.

Sure, Cloak can be used offensively vs a Caster, they also put themselves at risk in doing so. Same with using an Iceblock offensively.

Vanish is also buggy as fuck and you can see the Rogue after they Vanish. As a Rogue, I can literally Sap another Rogue via Shadow Dance if he Vanishes next to me. They also have to decide whether they want to use that defensively, to peel, or to be offensive. You can Vanish for a Cheap Shot/Garrote if you want, but then that's the defensive capability of it gone.

[Caolela]

You can call it doing it wrong all you want. But I got my 2200+ rating, I always beat everybody. I did it MY way, which you can call the WRONG way all you want. It worked for me, guess I am part of a very low % if I was able to do that.

This is what worked for me as well.

Look Soisoi, the reality was for example that I could tilt my stats as Destro from the conventional-thinking "Crit is best for Destro" build to a Haste build or a stronger Mastery build, (though Crit & Mast related together with each other so you didn't want to go too far with either). Same for Aff with Haste & Mast.

I could see a big difference in the typical lower 6-7% Haste build as Destro but more Crit or Mast (which I'd use if I had a decent Rated team with good peels and awareness, etc.), compared to 12-15% Haste and less Crit or Mast (for pugs and randoms). It would depend too on the comps I was in as to what gearing I'd use, and my playstyle with positioning and CC, or what I was assigned to do in the group.

I'd keep much of the same gear but have 4 or 5 items I'd switch around, and 2 different staffs or a MH/OH. I didn't do what everyone else did and I wasn't doing it wrong. You had choices and they could be very effective.

Now it's what Blizz decides is "balanced" and hey you can take it or leave it which is an utter crock for an MMORPG, and Blizz balances about as well as an elephant and a mouse.

[Wow]

Except assassination still deals more than enough damage, so yeah I know the community in this game is basically "my class sucks make it op please blizz" but lets stay real.

Also you have stealth, stunlock (more than enough trust me), shadowstep, kicks, cloak of brokeness and vanish. What more do you need,tell me? Not even taking into account your pvp talents. Do you really think frost DKs have nearly as much tools as you?

So listing abilities makes you right...

Then listing abilities must make me right too..

Deathgrip, baseline slow and root breaker, ams of brokenness with the artifact trait this is basically a better and shorter cd version of cloak..., Range kick, aoe stun, All this without listing pvp talents which actually do something for this spec while assassination pvp talents are trash.

So yea fdk kind of does have better toolkit (this isn't to say it's great it's just that assassin's is that bad), better survival, and ton better dmg. People seem to be blinded by rogue hate they've had for years to not actually see what assassination has lost. And that it's really is just a dmg bot and it's dmg was overnerfed and it's hp nerfed for no reason it's a glass cannon without the cannon.. And the other rogue specs are even worse they have little more cc but even less dmg and they also got the nerfed hp rogue's are a joke as a class atm that's why top end pvp rogues are quitting.

Assassination was doing too much dmg but then they went and just over nerfed it and then nerfed hp and the other rogue specs just to say f u rogues and 7.1.5 is now nerfing rogue slows to 30% the full retard rogue tuning is still going full swing...

But according to you rogue dmg is fine so then you wouldn't mind if they brought ret/ww/fdk/feral etc down to rogue lvls of dmg..

[GMZohar1]

This is what worked for me as well.

Look Soisoi, the reality was for example that I could tilt my stats as Destro from the conventional-thinking "Crit is best for Destro" build to a Haste build or a stronger Mastery build, (though Crit & Mast related together with each other so you didn't want to go too far with either). Same for Aff with Haste & Mast.

I could see a big difference in the typical lower 6-7% Haste build as Destro but more Crit or Mast (which I'd use if I had a decent Rated team with good peels and awareness, etc.), compared to 12-15% Haste and less Crit or Mast (for pugs and randoms). It would depend too on the comps I was in as to what gearing I'd use, and my playstyle with positioning and CC, or what I was assigned to do in the group.

I'd keep much of the same gear but have 4 or 5 items I'd switch around, and 2 different staffs or a MH/OH. I didn't do what everyone else did and I wasn't doing it wrong. You had choices and they could be very effective.

Now it's what Blizz decides is "balanced" and hey you can take it or leave it which is an utter crock for an MMORPG, and Blizz balances about as well as an elephant and a mouse.

Exactly! Some people followed websites, others played how they wanted to. Either way it was a choice. Now it's not a choice. See, Caolela gets it.

[Deleted]

*Warlock spotted*
Ww monks are fine now, mw could recive some nerf, but not that lol, soothing mist intrrumpible would make them unplayable

[sarkarin]

I think Frost DK have the same problem as Demon Hunters so I sympathize. Their gameplay isn't dynamic enough to justify doing less damage because they are one dimensional as they exist just to do damage which is shit game design. They should introduce more game play mechanics for classes that are lacking so they can reduce their damage but still justify being brought to the table over another class.

[l33t]

Hey, I have a better idea. Give every caster a disarm with 8sec cd. Would be just as ridiculous as current melee cleaving = balanced.

[araine]

Lol.

Thank god this guy isn't on the balancing team.

PvP would be like "nerf every class that kills me"

Hi i am rock and i have a balance suggestion scissors is fine but bag is over powered. thats the quality of the average balance suggestion from the community

[Soisoisoi]

Hey, I have a better idea. Give every caster a disarm with 8sec cd. Would be just as ridiculous as current melee cleaving = balanced.

Disarm stops everything a melee does for the duration, including defensives for some specs (e.g. Die by the Sword or Riposte), casters usually have multiple schools they can choose from, and they can avoid being interrupted by juking interrupts or casting something else (e.g. a Balance Druid could cast a Heal if interrupted). You can't juke a disarm, trust me I used to just step-disarm Warriors when they put up Parry and it would completely negate it with zero effort. So, because I can't actually tell if you were even slightly serious in that: That's a stupid idea.

I'm not saying melee cleave is balanced by any means, but adding shit like that doesn't help anyone.

[l33t]

So, because I can't actually tell if you were even slightly serious in that: That's a stupid idea.
I'm not saying melee cleave is balanced by any means, but adding shit like that doesn't help anyone.

Well, then please enlighten me in your m4d sk1llz in surviving a melee as a caster. For some reason, stopping a melee doing anything and just raping him is a no-no. But this is the exact thing that happens when you play a caster nowadays, and everyone acts like its perfectly ok.

Sure, I can juke. Problems are:
1. while I try to juke, I don't do any damage and receive a ton
2. thanks to fucking blizzard idiots and their absurd ability prunes we almost have no other magic schools nowadays, aside of couple of specs
3. tons of melee interrupts give you silence
4. OP as fuck stuns and
5. ridiculous number of gap closers that melees have.

Basically, a caster have ZERO capabilities of stopping melee damage output - while a melee can shut off a caster's damage output with a hundred of different ways. Which my proposition actually fixes. I won't even touch the fact that lots of melee specs are able to deal damage even when disarmed (that's just to show how ridiculous melees are).

[Soisoisoi]

Well, then please enlighten me in your m4d sk1llz in surviving a melee as a caster. For some reason, stopping a melee doing anything and just raping him is a no-no. But this is the exact thing that happens when you play a caster nowadays, and everyone acts like its perfectly ok.

Sure, I can juke. Problems are:
1. while I try to juke, I don't do any damage and receive a ton
2. thanks to fucking blizzard idiots and their absurd ability prunes we almost have no other magic schools nowadays, aside of couple of specs
3. tons of melee interrupts give you silence
4. OP as fuck stuns and
5. ridiculous number of gap closers that melees have.

Basically, a caster have ZERO capabilities of stopping melee damage output - while a melee can shut off a caster's damage output with a hundred of different ways. Which my proposition actually fixes. I won't even touch the fact that lots of melee specs are able to deal damage even when disarmed (that's just to show how ridiculous melees are).

Literally everything you've said is from a 3v1 perspective. If you're being trained, you have 2 other team-mates who can peel for you. Interrupts have a 15s+ (except Shaman) cooldown, that lockout 2-4s depending on which is used. 8sec CD disarm on the current disarm durations would literally be another full CC that melee are susceptible from - similar to Roots, where besides positioning, do naff all to ranged yet completely stop all damage from a melee and cannot be avoided at all. Again, you can avoid interrupts, and hell, you getting interrupted means your healer or other caster team-mate CAN cast. So, get interrupted so your mage can sheep one of them off you whilst your Druid Roots the other or w/e.

Just because:
1. Your Team can still cast if they lock you out for the whole couple of seconds.
2. Fair point, but see 1.
3. No, they don't. Literally none of the 11 melee specs' have silence on their interrupt.
4. Stuns are a form of CC to get a kill that, funnily enough, are also used by ranged.
5. Welcome to the arms race. Melee need to be able to get into melee to deal damage, you can thank the likes of Mages and Hunters for the poor Ele Shamans and Locks getting trained.

I'm not wanting to argue with you, but making stupid points isn't helping anyone. I'm all for balance, Disarms do not add that.

[Pvp guy]

Balance will never be achieved, now counter play, that's something different. An 8 second disarm is too short of a cd, I was thinking more like +/- 45 seconds. Casters get kicked a ton when they pop cd's. Sure you can make the case it can potentially be avoided but that's only potentially. I think that it would be fair then that when a melee team busts out the tunnel/stun kill attempt, they could be disarmed. Would add a huge element of counter play and maybe less people would be dying in a stun.

[l33t]

Balance will never be achieved, now counter play, that's something different. An 8 second disarm is too short of a cd, I was thinking more like +/- 45 seconds. Casters get kicked a ton when they pop cd's. Sure you can make the case it can potentially be avoided but that's only potentially. I think that it would be fair then that when a melee team busts out the tunnel/stun kill attempt, they could be disarmed. Would add a huge element of counter play and maybe less people would be dying in a stun.

Naaaah dude you can JUKe so just stand there and do nothing while melees rape you, because that's how balanced pvp looks like - when you can't do jack's shit to counter opponent, besides of hoping for teammates to babysit you. Balanced. Yeah, right.

[Ausr]

Every day, I hate this game's pvp.

[xZerocidex]

Balance will never be achieved, now counter play, that's something different. An 8 second disarm is too short of a cd, I was thinking more like +/- 45 seconds. Casters get kicked a ton when they pop cd's. Sure you can make the case it can potentially be avoided but that's only potentially. I think that it would be fair then that when a melee team busts out the tunnel/stun kill attempt, they could be disarmed. Would add a huge element of counter play and maybe less people would be dying in a stun.

Balance may not be achieved but it could've been a hell of alot better than it is now.

Despite we now have templates and honor talents it feels like we're still back at square 1 when it comes to class/spec representation in PvP.

Is there any reason to PvP as Fury when it feels subpar to Arms even with Honor talents being at your disposable?

[RelaZ]

Despite we now have templates and honor talents it feels like we're still back at square 1 when it comes to class/spec representation in PvP.

Is there any reason to PvP as Fury when it feels subpar to Arms even with Honor talents being at your disposable?

When it comes to classes that have several specs that perform the same role (such as warrior or rogue) there will almost always be one that is substantially better. There have only ever been a few exceptions to this rule. It's sort of the same thing as cookie cutter builds, just cookie cutter specs (and if you want to take it even further - cookie cutter comps). It's just going to work that way, especially considering most people seem to prefer Arms over Fury for PvP, considering its PvP history.

[xZerocidex]

When it comes to classes that have several specs that perform the same role (such as warrior or rogue) there will almost always be one that is substantially better. There have only ever been a few exceptions to this rule. It's sort of the same thing as cookie cutter builds, just cookie cutter specs (and if you want to take it even further - cookie cutter comps). It's just going to work that way, especially considering most people seem to prefer Arms over Fury for PvP, considering its PvP history.

While arms over the time has been the best pvp spec for warriors the purpose of honor talents and templates were suppose to make things better. I recall in Wrath when Fury had a talent where MS was baked into their auto attacks, and Whirlwind was hitting like a truck back then too.

I'm not arguing that specs are gonna be on par against another spec in the same class but some specs are sitting out on seasons despite what options we have now.

[Riistov]

I wouldn't mind seeing casters getting disarms to counter all melee having kicks. I think it would add some counterplay.

^ This right here.

Ever since 7.0 dropped, I can't get away from melee cleaves to save my life. Mage, Ele, Boomie, doesn't matter. Every spec I play gets chunked by the melee train.