7.1.5 Ptr Changes

[Dastey]

That survey is heavily biased as you can see on the way the questions are phrased. The results that survey will yield is basically predetermined by him, just by the questions he chose and the way he chose to phrase them. So the survey can literally be used for nothing

[Baconeggcheese]

@Dastey eh, some is some isn't. Won't be completely useless though it won't be the same as just providing proper feedback either.

[Avikur]

if it at least gets the devs talking about locks it's gotta be worth a shot. The fact is there has been no mention of lock changes since they acknowledged locks were in a bad way back when they made 3 shards out of combat a thing. They said at the time it would need a patch to make bigger changes, now we have a patch and hardly any changes, and the ones they have made haven't exaclty been popular! Yet Mages that were in a good place mechanically and just needed number tuning got lots of mechanical changes ...

[Verdugo]

They nerfed scaling because they buffed jewelry scaling. It ends up being about the same in the end or a tiny tiny bit less once your jewelry is caught up because you're not wearing 30 ilvl lower pieces due to them having a specific stat. 880 jewelry gained something like 5-600 stat.

Kind of obvious thing that was going to happen when they said they'd buff the jewelry scaling.

There is an even better way to make ilvl on jewelry matter.

Add main stats back to jewelry.

[Baconeggcheese]

There is an even better way to make ilvl on jewelry matter.

Add main stats back to jewelry.

That'd reduce the amount of secondary we have total, and put us back in the position they sought to avoid where we're secondary starved until mid-late xpac. It wouldn't be better, it'd be different.

There's really no issue I can think of with this solution.

[Lucrece]

That survey is heavily biased as you can see on the way the questions are phrased. The results that survey will yield is basically predetermined by him, just by the questions he chose and the way he chose to phrase them. So the survey can literally be used for nothing

You can use the survey to gauge how many people share a similar perspective.

I don't think you'll find many champions for life tap (and empowered life tap as a talent) or demonic empowerment, for example.

And I don't think you need a survey for people who think Reverse Entropy is a great quality of life talent.

[kavousanos]

So? With the newer nerfs to Critical Mass and PI those buffs are worthless and is basically overall another nerf. You used words like "MAJOR, dramatic buffs", "reversed overnight". Nothing of the sort happened.

Oh that!
Ever seen a nerf been revoked within the hour of it being announced?
Here: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/784392-715-fire-changes
Look at the timestamps.

My point is, blizzard cares for mages and what they have to say.
They are in an ongoing process of adjusting them to have more sustained dps. And yes, 42% on their more important spell? It is a dramatic buff.
All warlocks ever received from that team to address our concerns, let alone reversing nerfs, was "Warlock legendary pants are great for structured PvE". That's all they have said so far. 100% of the feedback we have had since legion released was that sentence Ion said at a Q&A.

[Valkaneer]

That'd reduce the amount of secondary we have total, and put us back in the position they sought to avoid where we're secondary starved until mid-late xpac. It wouldn't be better, it'd be different.

There's really no issue I can think of with this solution.

You give a higher base stat then nerf the scaling. Or they give us a better design game where other stats matter.

- - - Updated - - -

I said I'd like to see Soul Effigy and Mana tap gone. I'd like to see execute, soulburn for an insta cast re-summon demon and Soul Link back.

I said Ramp Up time was our biggest problem. Also that I would like to see a smooth rotation that not clunky and loaded with cumbersome talents / mechanics.

[Lucrece]

I'm mostly hoping for fire and brimstone and implosion made baseline. Warlock aoe is sorely lacking without gutting the already pedestrian single target. That needs to be addressed at some point.

Affliction simply needs its gold traits overhauled to periodically trigger so they're not dead traits when there aren't mobs dying fast enough (or at all) to prop them up.

It would be pretty great if they'd stop nerfing warlock survival in pvp, but with the drain essence nerf which was warlocks' main defense against melee, they'll just badnwagon into Netherward which a good amount of warlocks were already taking. Mongo melee are pretty strong already in pvp and warlocks will just have to settle with a caster defense since they wrecked the other two talents.

[Gobboz]

For Destro ST, Blizzard already have the solution on how to fix it without cleave getting out of hand.

All they need to do is modify the Focused Chaos PVP talent for PVE use, and put it in the same row as Wreak Havoc. Make it increase Chaos Bolt damage by 50% (or whatever math works) and not work with Havoc. That way you choose Wreak Havoc for cleave fights, and Focused Chaos for ST.

[Zenny]

Oh that!
Ever seen a nerf been revoked within the hour of it being announced?
Here: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/784392-715-fire-changes
Look at the timestamps.

My point is, blizzard cares for mages and what they have to say.
They are in an ongoing process of adjusting them to have more sustained dps. And yes, 42% on their more important spell? It is a dramatic buff.
All warlocks ever received from that team to address our concerns, let alone reversing nerfs, was "Warlock legendary pants are great for structured PvE". That's all they have said so far. 100% of the feedback we have had since legion released was that sentence Ion said at a Q&A.

No, that is not a nerf being reverted, the spec is actually worse off now then it was during the first PTR build. It doesn't matter that pyroblast got a 9% buff (not 42%) as well as several other abilities when the spec lost a further 5% crit and one the best golden traits got nerfed from 25% to 10%. Currently on the PTR, Fire does less single target then affliction by a rather large amount and falls even behind on cleave.

Neither was "Warlock legendary pants are great for structured PvE" the only thing said about Warlocks since Legion release, silly statements like that is not going to get you taking seriously.

[Walrock]

Watcher just posted this:

Well, part of the point of opening Nighthold and leaving it open for a longer period of time is to let groups get in and give contextual feedback on class mechanics, as well as to gather data to help with tuning. If we were solely interested in polishing the encounters, we'd be doing short 1-hour tests that could be observed by the encounter design team in their entirety. But this approach lets a lot more people get in and try things out.

Basically no numerical tuning based on 7.1.5 changes has been done yet: in test builds and development, the primary initial focus tends to be on qualitative design changes, both to allow for time to iterate on them, and because there's a much smaller development window during which we can make large changes to text in tooltips (since everything needs to be translated for the game's different regions before a patch can be finalized). Numbers changes are best done when designs are closer to final (there's little point fine-tuning something that may get ripped out entirely next build), and can be done very late in the PTR cycle. Raid tests like this help tremendously with that process.

The past couple of weeks have been full of distractions, with a long holiday weekend in the middle, and we haven't done a great job of communicating regarding the 7.1.5 class and systems changes. We'll be working to correct some of that in the coming days, but I understand that there's more than a little frustration and distrust to overcome.

In the meantime, I'll rename this thread, and make a new one for Nighthold. Please try to keep that one clear for feedback and logs from the instance, so that everyone can have a more polished experience in the long run. Thanks.

Damage control? Empty lies? We will see, but after this announcement, i think it's the last chance they get (from me) after 12 years of being a warlock, raiding top tier and playing high rated pvp

[Tread]

Watcher just posted this:

Well, part of the point of opening Nighthold and leaving it open for a longer period of time is to let groups get in and give contextual feedback on class mechanics, as well as to gather data to help with tuning. If we were solely interested in polishing the encounters, we'd be doing short 1-hour tests that could be observed by the encounter design team in their entirety. But this approach lets a lot more people get in and try things out.

Basically no numerical tuning based on 7.1.5 changes has been done yet: in test builds and development, the primary initial focus tends to be on qualitative design changes, both to allow for time to iterate on them, and because there's a much smaller development window during which we can make large changes to text in tooltips (since everything needs to be translated for the game's different regions before a patch can be finalized). Numbers changes are best done when designs are closer to final (there's little point fine-tuning something that may get ripped out entirely next build), and can be done very late in the PTR cycle. Raid tests like this help tremendously with that process.

The past couple of weeks have been full of distractions, with a long holiday weekend in the middle, and we haven't done a great job of communicating regarding the 7.1.5 class and systems changes. We'll be working to correct some of that in the coming days, but I understand that there's more than a little frustration and distrust to overcome.

In the meantime, I'll rename this thread, and make a new one for Nighthold. Please try to keep that one clear for feedback and logs from the instance, so that everyone can have a more polished experience in the long run. Thanks.

Damage control? Empty lies? We will see, but after this announcement, i think it's the last chance they get (from me) after 12 years of being a warlock, raiding top tier and playing high rated pvp

That's a nice thing to hear, but don't get relaxed just yet. We must keep sending feedback back to them and make it known that we demand some changes.

[Jessicka]

Watcher just posted this:

Well, part of the point of opening Nighthold and leaving it open for a longer period of time is to let groups get in and give contextual feedback on class mechanics, as well as to gather data to help with tuning. If we were solely interested in polishing the encounters, we'd be doing short 1-hour tests that could be observed by the encounter design team in their entirety. But this approach lets a lot more people get in and try things out.

Basically no numerical tuning based on 7.1.5 changes has been done yet: in test builds and development, the primary initial focus tends to be on qualitative design changes, both to allow for time to iterate on them, and because there's a much smaller development window during which we can make large changes to text in tooltips (since everything needs to be translated for the game's different regions before a patch can be finalized). Numbers changes are best done when designs are closer to final (there's little point fine-tuning something that may get ripped out entirely next build), and can be done very late in the PTR cycle. Raid tests like this help tremendously with that process.

The past couple of weeks have been full of distractions, with a long holiday weekend in the middle, and we haven't done a great job of communicating regarding the 7.1.5 class and systems changes. We'll be working to correct some of that in the coming days, but I understand that there's more than a little frustration and distrust to overcome.

In the meantime, I'll rename this thread, and make a new one for Nighthold. Please try to keep that one clear for feedback and logs from the instance, so that everyone can have a more polished experience in the long run. Thanks.

Damage control? Empty lies? We will see, but after this announcement, i think it's the last chance they get (from me) after 12 years of being a warlock, raiding top tier and playing high rated pvp

More jam tomorrow.

[Livevil]

And I don't think you need a survey for people who think Reverse Entropy is a great quality of life talent.

When you are the only dps class in game that has to worry about mana when dpsing(arcane mage isnt considered since their entire offensive system is designed around managing mana), i wouldn't call it QoL talent rather covering trash system design talent.

[Jessicka]

More jam tomorrow.

Not even tomorrow.

12/01/2016 12:12 AMPosted by Clarlem
Feedback: you're leaving the warlock community out in the cold. Please communicate with us. We are extremely desperate.

We agree with a number of the core concerns raised, but don't have immediate solutions (or those solutions will take more time to design, implement, and test than the 7.1.5 PTR cycle affords). A couple of examples off the top of my head:
Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource, but fixing that at this point isn't just as simple as rolling everything back to Embers.
Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs.

We're probably too reluctant to acknowledge problems for which we don't yet have a solution to present. But the fact that we haven't yet changed something doesn't mean that we think it's perfect as-is.

At least they're acknowledging something, but no solutions, no changes. Nothing for 7.1.5.

[Deleted]

Not sure if it's already been posted here but Pyromancer is doing a survey to present data to the devs:

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...2228236?page=1

worth helping him by completing his questionnaire.

I do agree that this is heavily biased (capital letters & "for gods sake" in an answer option, really?). Very sad to see an opportunity like this ruined: If already the questions are leading, guess what will happen to the outcome statistics. Never trust a statistic that you haven't forged yourself.

Also, what's even the point of asking about the resource types. Yes, a lot of people want the "old" back, but that's just because people don't like change. It's really not the problem that people are making it out to be, it's just resources...

Edit: Guess I was wrong. Devs jump on the non-issues, it seems

[acf]

Not even tomorrow.

12/01/2016 12:12 AMPosted by Clarlem
Feedback: you're leaving the warlock community out in the cold. Please communicate with us. We are extremely desperate.

We agree with a number of the core concerns raised, but don't have immediate solutions (or those solutions will take more time to design, implement, and test than the 7.1.5 PTR cycle affords). A couple of examples off the top of my head:
Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource, but fixing that at this point isn't just as simple as rolling everything back to Embers.
Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs.

We're probably too reluctant to acknowledge problems for which we don't yet have a solution to present. But the fact that we haven't yet changed something doesn't mean that we think it's perfect as-is.

At least they're acknowledging something, but no solutions, no changes. Nothing for 7.1.5.

On one hand, it's some comfort to see them at least acknowledging the issues. On the other hand, I read this pretty much as "you guys are fucked this expansion, good luck in 8.0!"

[Deleted]

Not even tomorrow.

12/01/2016 12:12 AMPosted by Clarlem
Feedback: you're leaving the warlock community out in the cold. Please communicate with us. We are extremely desperate.

We agree with a number of the core concerns raised, but don't have immediate solutions (or those solutions will take more time to design, implement, and test than the 7.1.5 PTR cycle affords). A couple of examples off the top of my head:
Steady/predictable Ember generation suited the Destruction rotation well, and something important was lost in the course of unifying the class to use a single shared resource, but fixing that at this point isn't just as simple as rolling everything back to Embers.
Mechanics like Demonic Empowerment and Soul Effigy are cumbersome to manage and while they have strong spec-specific theming, the actual gameplay of using them drags down their respective specs.

We're probably too reluctant to acknowledge problems for which we don't yet have a solution to present. But the fact that we haven't yet changed something doesn't mean that we think it's perfect as-is.

At least they're acknowledging something, but no solutions, no changes. Nothing for 7.1.5.

very interesting, but even more disappointing. Let's hope if they are too ignorant for mechanical changes that we get atleast a slight number buff or cast time reduce or something out of 7.1.5 ...

ffs Blizzard after months of constructive feedback they say they are probably too reluctant to admit.

[Saurus1]

I just hope that they give us a baseline interrupt (felhunter doesnt count). Its quite ridiculous that were nearly the only ones without it, EVERY single dps and tank spec has it, and some of the healers too. And doing 40-60% less single target dmg as destro than sp/arms/other bullshit feels really really bad.