Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Magnagarde]

Vereesa has a lot of reasons not to trust blood elves, especially on a personal level. Her feud is more personal than political.

Blood elves are behind the greatest personal tragedies she endured, hence the "hatred" and mistrust.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Vereesa has a lot of reasons not to trust blood elves, especially on a personal level. Her feud is more personal than political.

Blood elves are behind the greatest personal tragedies she endured, hence the "hatred" and mistrust.

Theres hating a enemy, and then there is being plain old terrible character. Vereesa would need an incredible amount of (good)writing for alot of people to start to like her.

[Zandalariprelate]

They worked together at Zul'Aman, but ever since then have only ever done awful things to the Blood Elves and proven their contempt for them. The Hunter Order Hall was the first time since Zul'Aman where they were cooperating.

That is exactly what i say and now veressa is working with liadrin and rommant to save suramar, so at least that count 2 occasion in this expantion, and with the 7.2 continuing the campaign of every class we we left that would be 3 times

Vereesa had the power to exact justice on Garrosh for his crimes not only against her by being the sole individual responsible for killing Rhonin, but also his crimes of negligence toward his allies, and his "crime" of destroying Theramore in a war they involved themselves in first, and she gave it up, so she loses all right to hate anyone for Garrosh getting off without any consequences.

When she gave it up? If you mean when she decide to not poison him to kill him, she doesn't forgive him or anything, just decide the pandaren justice worked as intended and also Lorthemar wanted to execute that poor excuse of elf called thalem.

Stolen from the Blue Dragonflight who'd all pretty much abandoned their home, so that's their mistake, and that's on Garrosh for ordering the killing of those blue dragons to steal the Focusing Iris.

They only left after theramore destruction because they wanted to save some artifacts, so they will not fall in wrong hands and the convoy that was transporting the Irish after use it in dragon soul raid was ambushed and killed by Garrosh Troops

Lor'themar had no knowledge of it. Thalen was acting alone, as a double agent not loyal to the Sunreavers or Silvermoon, only to Garrosh.

I really doubt they would let a archmage without any supervision or constant observation, not even khadgar in wod have such freedom to act without the kirin tor to talk to him or even reproach him

Grand Magister Rommath (Magister is male, Magistrix is female) told EVERYONE that it was a mistake to allow their magi to join Aethas in Dalaran to form the Sunreavers, and he never liked it one bit, and Rommath was in Silvermoon, not Dalaran where Thalen was most of the time, so no, it's not Rommath's fault at all

Thanks for correct me in that part, I confuse that title with other universe with elves, but so even the blood elves of the sunreavers they must had some constant observation from the magisters and magistrix of quel'thalas since every mage in the blood elf society is affiliated with them

Building or possessing a powerful weapon is not a crime. And the Blue Dragonflight had been trying to kill all mortal magic users a year earlier, and by the end of Cataclysm were defunct, with Coldarra being totally abandoned, with Kalec being the last one to leave it completely undefended. So they were only allies for the very brief period when Kalec was their Aspect up until Deathwing was killed and they all went their separate ways.

The convoy that Kalecgos send to secure the Irish was composed by kirin tor mages and 1 blue dragon I think, and what have to do the old nexus war here? The blood elves almost summoned Kil'jaeden here and because of that they weren't kicked from the horde or is ok to kill them because oh jo almost summoned a demon also remember the blue flight saved the world from deathwing with thrall and they were still a organization until the very beginning of mop(more exactly after the book of tides of war, them they disband it)

USING a powerful weapon to kill someone, or a great number of people, for no good reason is a crime. Garrosh had a good reason. Theramore attacked Durotar and the Barrens and laid siege to Mulgore for an entire year before Garrosh retaliated, when previously during WotLK and earlier, Theramore claimed it was neutral as far as the war was concerned. It was nice of them to help out the Night Elves when the orcs attacked them, but they no longer had the right to claim neutrality at that point, and became a perfectly legitimate military target of war.

The orcs with Garrosh started the war in Cataclysm while they invaded Baelgun that dwarf place of archeology, siege and burning of some post in ashenvale, conquest Azshara and Theramore never siege or even attacked the horde of Durotan that are KUL TIRAS marines force, is not good to twist facts to just accommodate your hatred to some factions

That said, we'll pretend Garrosh didn't have any of that on them, and just blew them up for the funsies. If that were the case, Garrosh would be guilty of committing a heinous crime of mass murder on a completely innocent group of people.

Well he did it in the vale of pandaria, so since tides of war blow things is kinda part of his character

Ok by that logic

That still wouldn't mean Thalen was responsible for killing those people. If that were the case, then the same could be said for the entire Blue Dragonflight for making the Focusing Iris which was then converted by Thalen for use as an explosive.

Ok them by that logic of yours is not the fault of Arthas to have become a death knight, killing a lot of innocents people, enslavement against their will and created abominations with their flesh, let's just blame Ner'zhul for tent the poor boy

If you go to any murder trial where the defendant killed someone of their own free will, not by an accident caused by faulty machinery or something like that, they wouldn't hold the manufacturer of the murder weapon culpable for the crime.

It will, if the manufacturer stolen the core material from a militar convoy and killed those neutrals soldiers to elaborate that weapon, just ask to the guys in charge of the docks with build the bismarck ships with slaves

Thalen did not kill Rhonin, nor was he remotely responsible for his death.

If that were the case, you'd have every single character in all of WoW blaming the authors of spellbooks that taught a mage/warlock who killed their loved ones whatever spell they used to do it.

Or people dragging blacksmiths out into the streets to murder them for forging the sword that killed their son who was serving in some military campaign against whatever faction the blacksmith made that sword for.

As I say again it the manufacturer used stolen material and killing during the robbery innocent people aka kirin tor mages that were neutral in that point, is a crime and he was spying in theramore under the kirin tor banner, yes is guilty and a desertor, and even lor'themar want him to decapitated him for all the laws he broke.

I agree, except screw Khadgar altogether. His story should have been Karazhan. That's plenty of story for one person in a patch, they don't need to hog the spotlight away from four entire racial factions (Night Elves, Blood Elves, Silver Covenant, and Nightfallen).

The big mage name of the group present in Suramar should have been Rommath. He's never been shown to do any magic, while Khadgar seems like he farts huge displays of magic power with every step he takes, so everyone else who they never show using magic just looks like an irresponsible dickbag with it.

I'm not sure if there were other big names there besides Tyrande, Vereesa, Liadrin, and Rommath, but if they had the Night Elves' Shen'drelar Highborne mage guy, he could have been an okay magic guy to have some spotlight there too. Perhaps both he and Rommath working together.

Anything but Khadgar would have been preferable.

Dont forget the highborne night elf leader, he with tyrande should have been there and also lor'themar and while khadgar i like it as a character, having him in every plot is tedious

[Koryn123]

I don't know about "hate," but she does have a reason to distrust her Blood Elven kin from her own perspective. Her own cousin Zendarin, a Blood Elf that remained loyal to Kael'thas, kidnapped her and Rhonin's children and was prepared to sacrifice them for their potential magical power to feed his addiction. Rhonin himself was killed by an Arcane device indirectly set up by another Blood Elf, Fanlyr Silverthorn, himself a pretty despicable specimen of a Blood Elf given his closeness to Garrosh's policies. It doesn't excuse her continued behavior by any means, but her predisposition toward distrust of Blood Elves is at least understandable.

Zendarin was no longer loyal to Kael'thas, Quel'thalas, Lor'themar, or anyone there. In Night of the Dragon, he was loyal to Sinestra. He got his green eyes because he was in Quel'thalas when Rommath came back with fel crystals to power Silvermoon's arcane structures and reclaim Eversong Woods from the Scourge. He took to the methods of siphoning mana from living beings, but at the time of Night of the Dragon, he was not with the blood elves. He was working only for Sinestra.

That's something you blame the individual for, not something you can claim is the standard for every single blood elf.

And yet she spares Garrosh who was the only one responsible for killing Rhonin, after I suppose she got her fill of murdering Horde during the Purge and Isle of Thunder. Then continues hating blood elves.

She should swear vengeance against every single blacksmith on Azeroth too. That seems to be how she does things with the Blood Elves. She can't tell which ones have actually done something to her (likely none of them), so she decides to just kill them all just to be sure she got the ones who did her wrong.

So to get proper justice for anyone she knows or cares about who's been killed by a sword, axe, hammer, etc, the solution is to murder the people who built the weapons, not the people who used the weapons.

She seems to be taking a somewhat elongated arc similar to the structure of her sister Alleria - instead of being driven with rage at the Orcs it's more focused on her own kin in the Horde. Maybe something will happen to change her view similar to Alleria, maybe it won't; I'm actually hoping she isn't a mirror and becomes her own character so to speak. But I would like to see her mature somewhat instead of yo-yo'ing back and forth as the plot demands.

I as well. Unfortunately for Vereesa, she didn't get the memo that being a whiny child is only supposed to be a phase, not a philosophy to live by.

- - - Updated - - -

No offense, @Maxrokur, your post just has too many incorrect lore bits and misconceptions, and I don't have time to respond to all of them tonight.

[RyanEX]

@Loadbearer Kalecgos held a meeting in Coldarra immediately after he was informed that the Iris had been stolen so there were indeed still dragons there. Also, they were quite shocked that four dragons weren't enough, especially since they were in disguise. One of the plot points that is never explained is HOW the Horde knew that they were dragons, where they were, and how they beat them.

Also they weren't taking it to Dalaran.

Also, on the aspect of just how much neutral is neutral, let's not forget that Ratchet allowed the Horde to use their port to bring in and house the troops to attack Theramore and Northwatch, and was known to favour the Horde so much so that it was decided that sending the ship full of children and non combatants there was a bad idea. Yet for all his supposed warmongering we never saw Varian plot to destroy the goblin port.

Finally, Blizzard's writing is at the core of why the characters feel so flip floppy when they have the novel characters act one way and then the ingame ones act another. If we go by the ingame orcs say, Jaina got what she deserved after sending her troops to rape and pillage through the peace loving orc and Tauren lands only to be halted by the Cataclysm. In the novels Jaina doesn't consider herself at war with the Horde and continues her secret meetings with Thrall up to the point when she, shockingly, hears that the Horde are on their way to attack her.

[Deleted]

As I said when I made my video about this week on the ptr, the fact that they act like the Night Elves don't have a standing force is really nonsensical, right alongside the implication of that scene that suddenly the Blood Elves have a giant army.

They have a standing force, yes, but as do the Night Elves. In fact, between the events of War3 and Kael taking some to Outland, they should have much less than at least the Night Elves. Blood Elves aren't breeding like rabbits.

The High Elf representation with Vereesa as like literally 4 npcs makes sense. And before somebody says it, yes, sure, they reference the "stealthiness" of the Night Elves, but they still have the Sentinels and can essentially grow Ancients and use their Druids to spawn a bunch of a treants and such.

And if the Blood Elves are going to just have Mages incorporated in their ranks using Blood Magic and powering the Golems, there's no reason the Night Elves shouldn't have a bunch of Druids there either.

Overall, the return of all the Elves was amazing, don't get me wrong, I love it way more than I dislike it. It was just irking me that the Night Elves sent virtually nobody when they should have the largest force.

[ravenmoon]

Finally, Blizzard's writing is at the core of why the characters feel so flip floppy when they have the novel characters act one way and then the ingame ones act another. If we go by the ingame orcs say, Jaina got what she deserved after sending her troops to rape and pillage through the peace loving orc and Tauren lands only to be halted by the Cataclysm. In the novels Jaina doesn't consider herself at war with the Horde and continues her secret meetings with Thrall up to the point when she, shockingly, hears that the Horde are on their way to attack her.

that's largely because it's different people writing these things, and game doesn't get enough screen time on them for us to really feel their character, especially at key moments.

they changed the approach in Legion, the way they did Thalyssra for example and the Wardens in the WQs, you get a far better idea of what the characters are like, and the game is the main lore engine, what you see there will out last and over-ride the novels. Novelists are hired, they getinto a character, but they aren't the lore engine. IT's the guys on the table that determine what happens. Novelests i suppose try to bring their characters more to life with varying degrees of success. and sometimes ofc, the table team just change the direction to fit some new story or story direction that comes to them.

[Rhlor]

He helped Garrosh to escape to his trial and hi designed specifical this bomb with the Irish which was stolen by garrosh soldiers, so yes in part theron have a bit of fault to let this maniac elf to create such terrible weapon in his back and rommant to since he is supposed to be the grand magitrix in silvermoon and a bomb builded with a stolen artifact from a allie is considered a crime

Did you read war crimes? Thalen was hidden because if lorthemar found it he would execute.

Thalen is annoyed with rommath and lorthemar for being of garrosh and calls them supporters of the alliance.

Thalen acted alone under the orders of Garrosh and none of his actions were undertaken in Quelthalas.

In any case it is Rhonin's fault since he was a magician of dalaran

[Aucald]

Zendarin was no longer loyal to Kael'thas, Quel'thalas, Lor'themar, or anyone there. In Night of the Dragon, he was loyal to Sinestra. He got his green eyes because he was in Quel'thalas when Rommath came back with fel crystals to power Silvermoon's arcane structures and reclaim Eversong Woods from the Scourge. He took to the methods of siphoning mana from living beings, but at the time of Night of the Dragon, he was not with the blood elves. He was working only for Sinestra.

That's not something Vereesa would've known, however; she only knew that he was a Blood Elf - which he was. Given the nature of what was going on at the time I doubt the specificity of his current allegiance was a huge factor for her, either.

That's something you blame the individual for, not something you can claim is the standard for every single blood elf.

We've already established she's hot-headed and not the most rational of people. She's also far from alone in that particular failing.

And yet she spares Garrosh who was the only one responsible for killing Rhonin, after I suppose she got her fill of murdering Horde during the Purge and Isle of Thunder. Then continues hating blood elves.

Vengeance is often intensely personal and at her core I'm unsure Garrosh was, in her eyes, the ultimate villain in the equation. Think about which of these two evils is worse on a personal scale: the cruel but distant tyrant who orders monstrous things be done, or the traitorous member of your own people who gleefully assists him? I think Vereesa's pain and rage (expertly manipulated by Sylvanas) drove her to want to kill Garrosh for his part in Theramore, but ultimately she didn't wish to become a cold-blooded murderer to accomplish that. But the feelings of betrayal and mistrust towards the Blood Elves, her kin who were complicit in the act (from her perspective) persists.

She should swear vengeance against every single blacksmith on Azeroth too. That seems to be how she does things with the Blood Elves. She can't tell which ones have actually done something to her (likely none of them), so she decides to just kill them all just to be sure she got the ones who did her wrong. So to get proper justice for anyone she knows or cares about who's been killed by a sword, axe, hammer, etc, the solution is to murder the people who built the weapons, not the people who used the weapons.

Her reactions embody the essential core of prejudice - in this case, a prejudice against those who share a culture or history with the individuals that have hurt her. Lor'themar for the exile, Zendarin and Fanlyr for more personal reasons, in her eyes the recent past is littered with betrayals from people who were once her close kin. Not saying that Vereesa is either right or rational - but it isn't as if her reactions don't have their own real-life analogues.

I as well. Unfortunately for Vereesa, she didn't get the memo that being a whiny child is only supposed to be a phase, not a philosophy to live by.

It's a phase many people never get past, both in the Warcraft universe and in life. In many ways I think Veressa's irrational hate is keeping her sane, or at least keeping her from acknowledging her losses in a healthy fashion. Her dependence on Rhonin was itself another unhealthy crutch - having lost her home she grafted herself to another, and then lost that as well. The High Elves are a people without a place, defining themselves across an ideological divide which is largely no longer even applicable. Vereesa's not alone in not "getting the memo" as it were - Renthar and Aurora's reactions to Lor'themar were quite similar to Vereesa's continued stance. That sense of profound betrayal runs deep.

[Rhlor]

look great

[Mehrunes]

No, my answer concerned why Lor'themar didn't go to Vereesa and/or Dalaran first and instead focused on Quel'Lithien and the plight of Renthar Hawkspear and Aurora Skycaller instead. Both because he thought the latter two would've been more receptive to his entreaties (e.g. he thought they would ultimately accept the help and not react with outright hostility, though he fully anticipated that things would be tense). Instead of opening formal diplomatic channels and setting up visitation with a de-facto head of state in another region he visited a holding nominally still under Silvermoon's control and a people he hoped would ultimately be receptive to unification or assistance.

This had nothing to do with Lor'themar's later reaction to Vereesa being present in Quel'thalas without explicit permission from Silvermoon - that occurred well after the failed negotiations at Quel'Lithien.

I didn't say anything about the chronology of invitations. Vereesa was banned from entering Quel'thalas as explicitly mentioned in 4.1. And Aurora and Renthar potentially being more receptive? Lor'themar's short story says something else. Lor'themar and Halduron agree the visit was futile from the get go. Also, as I already said, a letter would have sufficed. Did Lor'themar hike all the way to Outland to inform Auric of the events and extend an offer of rejoining? We have no such data and it seems improbable. But let's assume he did. Earlier you said he reached out to Quel'lithien partially because of proximity. And reaching out to Quel'lithien potentially happened earlier than to Allerian Stronghold, given how we see Auric in Quel'danas only in 3.3 yet Quel'lithien events happened at the start of 3.0. Going by proximity, Vereesa should still have been approached earlier than Auric. Yet as observed in 4.1, that has not been the case yet. So, again, since you continue to fail to address it and go on more and more unrelated tangents, if the idea behind readmitting the High Elves was supposedly their super awesome military importance, why was Vereesa, the leader of the biggest and strongest High Elf faction, not only not invited, but outright prohibited from returning?

Who did what has been left debateable, on purpose, by Blizzard. What occurs ingame has been contradicted in the novels. Such as how in ToW Jaina acts as if she isn't at war with the Horde and is shocked that they'd attack her. This opinion is fortified by the fact that she left the Horde ogre outpost intact in her own backyard. I might not be a great general or anything but even I know that's a bad idea. As such simply proclaiming that she started it by attacking the Barrens is incorrect since the novels indicate that this is not the case.

She also said Kirin Tor aiding her would be a neutral thing to do in the very same book. Her words have little value. Especially since unless you're claiming that Tides of War retconned not only Northwatch attack on Crossroads but the entirety of Theramore's immense involvement in faction war in Cataclysm, Jaina is talking out of her ass when she's shocked by the attack.

Vereesa has a lot of reasons not to trust blood elves, especially on a personal level. Her feud is more personal than political.

Blood elves are behind the greatest personal tragedies she endured, hence the "hatred" and mistrust.

Yeah, like her cousin kidnapping her kids which ended with them not being harmed in any way and one Blood Elf making a bomb that an Orc used to kill her husband (because he involved himself in siege of Theramore due to agreeing with Jaina's fucked up concept of neutrality). Where's her mistrust and hatred for Orcs or humans then?

I don't know about "hate," but she does have a reason to distrust her Blood Elven kin from her own perspective. Her own cousin Zendarin, a Blood Elf that remained loyal to Kael'thas, kidnapped her and Rhonin's children and was prepared to sacrifice them for their potential magical power to feed his addiction. Rhonin himself was killed by an Arcane device indirectly set up by another Blood Elf, Fanlyr Silverthorn, himself a pretty despicable specimen of a Blood Elf given his closeness to Garrosh's policies. It doesn't excuse her continued behavior by any means, but her predisposition toward distrust of Blood Elves is at least understandable.

Thalen made the mana bomb, not Fanlyr. And her reasons to distrust Blood Elves are her being an inconsistent hypocrite. If it's OK to be distrustful of an entire race (your own at that) due to the actions of two individuals, where is her distrust of humans? Arthas eradicated almost the entirety of her people, including her own sister and other family members. And if it's the number two that's magical one, Garithos then tried to finish this task. Yet her mistrust of humans is nowhere to be seen. Probably because by that point she was already chocking on Rhonin's dick and that caused her bias. Or she's written by talentless hacks.

[Aucald]

I didn't say anything about the chronology of invitations. Vereesa was banned from entering Quel'thalas as explicitly mentioned in 4.1. And Aurora and Renthar potentially being more receptive? Lor'themar's short story says something else. Lor'themar and Halduron agree the visit was futile from the get go. Also, as I already said, a letter would have sufficed. Did Lor'themar hike all the way to Outland to inform Auric of the events and extend an offer of rejoining? We have no such data and it seems improbable. But let's assume he did. Earlier you said he reached out to Quel'lithien partially because of proximity. And reaching out to Quel'lithien potentially happened earlier than to Allerian Stronghold, given how we see Auric in Quel'danas only in 3.3 yet Quel'lithien events happened at the start of 3.0. Going by proximity, Vereesa should still have been approached earlier than Auric. Yet as observed in 4.1, that has not been the case yet. So, again, since you continue to fail to address it and go on more and more unrelated tangents, if the idea behind readmitting the High Elves was supposedly their super awesome military importance, why was Vereesa, the leader of the biggest and strongest High Elf faction, not only not invited, but outright prohibited from returning?

Lor'themar *thought* they would be receptive, hence his reason for making the attempt - the reality of the situation turned out to be something entirely else. Traveling to hostile Outland would potentially require more set-up than a Dalaran visit, so by the same rationale it would also be out of scope and unlikely. Quel'Lithien is both closer and likely more important to Lor'themar (given the givens) than either Vereesa or Auric. By 4.1 Vereesa had been well established as a partisan for the Alliance, so Lor'themar's more explicit ban on the Silver Covenant would be expected.

The ideas of reunifying the Elven people, at least the Blood and High Elven people, is less a matter of military importance and more a matter of closing a cultural rift that is more or less no longer relevant. The Sunwell is restored, Silvermoon is mostly restored, and the Blood/High Elven divide is no longer as pronounced given the return of belief in the faith of Light and no further need for mana-tapping process created by Kael'thas. You can disagree with the notion, as is well within your rights, but you needn't be inexplicably hostile about it. This is my opinion supported by evidence, but it's not an objective fact of reality - you can have your own position on Elven reunification or Vereesa specifically.

[StationaryHawk]

As I said when I made my video about this week on the ptr, the fact that they act like the Night Elves don't have a standing force is really nonsensical, right alongside the implication of that scene that suddenly the Blood Elves have a giant army.

They have a standing force, yes, but as do the Night Elves. In fact, between the events of War3 and Kael taking some to Outland, they should have much less than at least the Night Elves. Blood Elves aren't breeding like rabbits.

The High Elf representation with Vereesa as like literally 4 npcs makes sense. And before somebody says it, yes, sure, they reference the "stealthiness" of the Night Elves, but they still have the Sentinels and can essentially grow Ancients and use their Druids to spawn a bunch of a treants and such.

And if the Blood Elves are going to just have Mages incorporated in their ranks using Blood Magic and powering the Golems, there's no reason the Night Elves shouldn't have a bunch of Druids there either.

Overall, the return of all the Elves was amazing, don't get me wrong, I love it way more than I dislike it. It was just irking me that the Night Elves sent virtually nobody when they should have the largest force.

I'm not 100% on the political and military structure of the night elves, but is it possible that Tyrande does not have the authority to command the druids to fight in Suramar? I recall prior to Malfurion's return that there was a power struggle between her and Fandral over leadership of the night elves.

[Mehrunes]

The orcs with Garrosh started the war in Cataclysm while they invaded Baelgun that dwarf place of archeology, siege and burning of some post in ashenvale, conquest Azshara and Theramore never siege or even attacked the horde of Durotan that are KUL TIRAS marines force, is not good to twist facts to just accommodate your hatred to some factions

No. Just no. First attack was by Northwatch on Crossroads. Baelgun was long after the start of the war so whoever started it (the Alliance) claiming it as start of the war is just stupid. Not to mention that they were trespassing on Horde land. Invasion of Ashenvale occurred only after the Cataclysm (while attack on Crossroads happened shortly before the Cataclysm). And KUL TIRAS marines force died in the Cataclysm. Their fortress, as well as the Durotar area previously occupied by Centraurs, have been captured by Theramore troops. Who made plans to invade multiple Horde outposts in the zone, including Orgrimmar itself. It's not good to not know what the hell you're talking about before you accuse other people of twisting things to accommodate their hatred of things.

Ok them by that logic of yours is not the fault of Arthas to have become a death knight, killing a lot of innocents people, enslavement against their will and created abominations with their flesh, let's just blame Ner'zhul for tent the poor boy

I don't know whose logic it is (I wouldn't really call it logic in the first place), but it's not @TheLoadbearer 's. Arthas was still in control of his actions as per Rise of the Lich King. Even if he was not, his situation wouldn't bare any particular relevance to the topic of a weapon maker.

It will, if the manufacturer stolen the core material from a militar convoy and killed those neutrals soldiers to elaborate that weapon, just ask to the guys in charge of the docks with build the bismarck ships with slaves

Splendid thing then that Thalen didn't take part in the attack on the Blue Dragonflight.

[Aquamonkey]

Also, on the aspect of just how much neutral is neutral, let's not forget that Ratchet allowed the Horde to use their port to bring in and house the troops to attack Theramore and Northwatch, and was known to favour the Horde so much so that it was decided that sending the ship full of children and non combatants there was a bad idea. Yet for all his supposed warmongering we never saw Varian plot to destroy the goblin port.

Ratchet is neutral. That means they don't favor service to one side or the other. They may have liked the Horde more, but they didn't restrict the usage of their port.

The Alliance actually infringed upon that neutrality. Northwatch fired upon neutral ships. And the Alliance fleet boarded or sank any ship that didn't submit to them.

Theramore decided not to send refugee ships to Ratchet because that's where the Horde ships had just been stationed. It had nothing to do with questioning their neutrality.

[Koryn123]

As I said when I made my video about this week on the ptr, the fact that they act like the Night Elves don't have a standing force is really nonsensical, right alongside the implication of that scene that suddenly the Blood Elves have a giant army.

If you're referring to what Liadrin said about how she thought Tyrande's troops should hang back and just stick to scouting, that's not a jab at their ability or merit as fighters. It's a strategical evaluation of their usefulness in that particular combat setting.

The Sentinels are very lightly-armored rangers, adept at stealth, scouting, archery, etc., but mainly in a forest setting. They're not made for combat in a heavily populated, highly developed metropolitan environment. That light armor they wear (more like leather-kini's if official art is to be believed over in-game models, which are still pretty light-armored) is so they can move quickly to escape from their enemy into the brush from which they can strike with more lethality than fighting hand-to-hand out in the open.

The Blood Knights are not forest fighters, and they are far better suited for combat in such a setting as Suramar. Liadrin suggested Tyrande use her forces as scouts and support like shooting arrows from behind the blood elves' lines because that's what they do best, while fighting hand-to-hand is what the more-armored blood knights are good at.

See what I mean?

They have a standing force, yes, but as do the Night Elves. In fact, between the events of War3 and Kael taking some to Outland, they should have much less than at least the Night Elves. Blood Elves aren't breeding like rabbits.

Night Elves also have a lot more territory to cover and hold, with varying degrees of success. They've been immortal for the past 10,000 years, so having kids probably wasn't a very big priority (it wasn't in Quel'thalas with the not immortal but still long-lived high/blood elves either), so the population didn't increase by a whole lot in that time. They hold Ashenvale, part of Stonetalon Mountains, Felwood, Darkshore, Moonglade, Winterspring, Mt. Hyjal, Teldrassil, have forces stationed in Desolace, Feralas, and Silithus, and fighting the Legion, that would all have them spread pretty thin. And that's not to mention Val'sharah now in Legion, and perhaps the Moon Guard and Warden areas if they still have contact with them as a people, or if they're separated now.

Meanwhile, the only territory the blood elves need to hold is Eversong Woods, Ghostlands (at least keeping the Scourge under control), and Quel'danas. And Kael's forces rejoined their people after Kael'thas was killed when they found out he was actually working for the Legion, not just made a deal with them to get mana for their people. Those elves were among the most powerful of the survivors after the Scourge attack, so with their return, the Ghostlands weren't so strained, and Lor'themar was willing to help the Quel'lithien elves. And without things like Garrosh's campaigns, and no significant sin'dorei presence in Sylvanas' group in Stormheim that we can see, the blood elves have more of their troops available for things like Suramar.

The Blood Elves are most definitely far fewer in number than the Night Elves, but they aren't as ambitious with their borders, so they have more troops to spare for a distant conflict like Suramar.

The High Elf representation with Vereesa as like literally 4 npcs makes sense. And before somebody says it, yes, sure, they reference the "stealthiness" of the Night Elves, but they still have the Sentinels and can essentially grow Ancients and use their Druids to spawn a bunch of a treants and such.

One might explain that away with the druids all being preoccupied with Val'sharah. They need to cleanse the Nightmare's corruption from the place as soon as possible. Also, Suramar has little to no trees in it, and ancients could accidentally harm civilians. They wouldn't really be able to tell them from the Nightborne forces (at least those who aren't infused with fel) and might be less careful.

The goal is to defeat the enemy but leave the city and innocent population unharmed, and ancients are a little too crude and awkward to be useful in such an attack in a crowded city, where they wouldn't fit between buildings and such.

And if the Blood Elves are going to just have Mages incorporated in their ranks using Blood Magic and powering the Golems, there's no reason the Night Elves shouldn't have a bunch of Druids there either.

Most likely working on Val'sharah again. I could be wrong because I haven't leveled my mage, but I haven't heard anything about the Magisters from Silvermoon having a major presence in the mage order hall. Does Rommath go there and hang out a lot? I was under the impression that he only sent Esara Verrinde, and there's Magister Varenthas (who wears a Kirin Tor tabard in WotLK, rather than a Sunreaver one, so he's likely not there on Rommath's orders, and instead is just happy to be with the Kirin Tor in Dalaran again), but no other named blood elf magi there.

If that's the case, then Rommath and the Magisters are pretty free to go hang out with Liadrin in Suramar, not tied up in any huge efforts like the druids are with Val'sharah.

Overall, the return of all the Elves was amazing, don't get me wrong, I love it way more than I dislike it. It was just irking me that the Night Elves sent virtually nobody when they should have the largest force.

They do have the biggest population of the three by far, it's just that they're stretched so thin across so much territory that they can't send so many to Suramar without leaving the rest of their holdings wide open.

And lorewise, I doubt the Broken Isles and little isolated spots in order campaigns are the only places the Legion is attacking. They're probably attacking all over the world, and as the Night Elves have like 40% of Kalimdor, their land is probably coming under heavy fire.

[ravenmoon]

I dunno. I'd say it's completely political, with a pinch of ego thrown in, because of Vereesa. She's way too Alliance (like, stupid levels of being Alliance), and very egocentric, unable to see the view of anyone but herself. Lor'themar and the Blood Elves have proven that they can be cordial to high elves and appreciate their perspective and the pain some of them (the Quel'lithien ones) went through, using Auric and those he oversees at the Sunwell and others as an example.

.

I really don't think that's the case. Vereesa is been written as person who has the legacy of an entire people to preserve, and avenge. Blood elf is an identity that seeks to eradicate a nobler founding one, and they are willing to do dangerous and despicable things that grossly go against everything their people stood for. That's what the situation is to her.

Whiles the blood elves now may no longer quite follow that path any more, en route to redemption, the situation was compounded by their actions during that time too, then there is Theramore - blood elves behaving a way high elves never would, sure some wouldn't do that, but some did. This is not the elven way. Elves aren't humans that have some people okay, others questionable and we make it work. They stand for a higher ideal, and the blood elven new code is despicable, lesser (in terms of ideals) and divisive. There is only one way to be the high elf way, and she must oppose all those who

Part of the problem in game is you don't see the full extent of anything. You don't see how united and the elves were or how ideal and near perfection they ran their lives... the treasure of what was lost in the change is lost to most players.

Furthermore I don't see our main blood elf fanbase here really making any effort at all to understand the side of the high elves, despite been given less information on it. This is what I call bias. They don't care enough to look, nor to try to understand. And some would rather call blizzard sloppy writers than try to first really understand what's been said then drawing that conclusion.

Yes blizzard have made mistakes, bad contradictions too, but i too often see people not try to give the story the benefit of the doubt to discover or better to figure out what they're trying to do, cos some of the stuff is hidden, and some oft he stuff they have gone through A LOT of effort to present, how they've presented, leaving clues you are suppose to try and figure out rather than hold the bad writing card up in their face.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I really don't think that's the case. Vereesa is been written as person who has the legacy of an entire people to preserve, and avenge. Blood elf is an identity that seeks to eradicate a nobler founding one, and they are willing to do dangerous and despicable things that grossly go against everything their people stood for. That's what the situation is to her.

Never has that ever been expressed as her goal, her entire character is "I hate blood elves" And if that ever was her goal, she went against it several times.

Whiles the blood elves now may no longer quite follow that path any more, en route to redemption, the situation was compounded by their actions during that time too, then there is Theramore - blood elves behaving a way high elves never would, sure some wouldn't do that, but some did. This is not the elven way. Elves aren't humans that have some people okay, others questionable and we make it work. They stand for a higher ideal, and the blood elven new code is despicable, lesser (in terms of ideals) and divisive. There is only one way to be the high elf way, and she must oppose all those who

again this is silly, because you have one guy construct the bomb, a blood elf, but then the rest of the plan is constructed by orcs, and vereesa still goes out of her way to kill blood elves, while letting Garrosh live, and then turning around and planning on buddying up with her sister so she can be allowed back into Quel'thalas. Again, she has never been noble and has pretty much always been self serving. (fuck the high elves I have rhonin to fuck the blood elves I can hide in Dalaran and judge them, followed by fuck the blood elves despite Garrosh killing rhonin).

Furthermore I don't see our main blood elf fanbase here really making any effort at all to understand the side of the high elves, despite been given less information on it. This is what I call bias. They don't care enough to look, nor to try to understand. And some would rather call blizzard sloppy writers than try to first really understand what's been said then drawing that conclusion.

There is understanding the high elves, and then there is trying to paint them as noble do nothing wrong saints. A good person doesn't go so crazy they had to be kicked out of their own kingdom and I dont think I need to explain why Vereesa has never been a good example of a elf.

Yes blizzard have made mistakes, bad contradictions too, but i too often see people not try to give the story the benefit of the doubt to discover or better to figure out what they're trying to do, cos some of the stuff is hidden, and some oft he stuff they have gone through A LOT of effort to present, how they've presented, leaving clues you are suppose to try and figure out rather than hold the bad writing card up in their face.

there is not a single bit of lore written or "hidden/implied etc" that shows the Silver Covenant in a sympathetic light, we get a little bit of it in the elves of the plaguelands, but even then, lorthemar made it clear he would not deal with violence during a desperate time trying to fight back the scourge. Again, there have never been clues/hints /eastereggs whatever that have made specifically the high elves or the SC to be the good guys so im not sure why you would try to paint them that way. If you argument was about Auric and the High elves of outland you would have a case, but they arent running around killing blood elves, they want to reunite.

[Aquamonkey]

I really don't think that's the case. Vereesa is been written as person who has the legacy of an entire people to preserve, and avenge. Blood elf is an identity that seeks to eradicate a nobler founding one, and they are willing to do dangerous and despicable things that grossly go against everything their people stood for. That's what the situation is to her.

When did Vereesa turn into a NElf? Doing dangerous and despicable things is exactly what got her people kicked out of Kalimdor... and why the NElves hated both HElves and BElves.

Vereesa sympathized with the actual plight of the BElves. Her hatred stemmed from a single BElf who tried to murder her children.

[Koryn123]

I really don't think that's the case. Vereesa is been written as person who has the legacy of an entire people to preserve, and avenge. Blood elf is an identity that seeks to eradicate a nobler founding one, and they are willing to do dangerous and despicable things that grossly go against everything their people stood for. That's what the situation is to her.

So the High Elves treat their homeland as dead and gone and they gave up on it, while the Blood Elves stuck it out and restored their kingdom.

Whiles the blood elves now may no longer quite follow that path any more, en route to redemption, the situation was compounded by their actions during that time too, then there is Theramore - blood elves behaving a way high elves never would, sure some wouldn't do that, but some did. This is not the elven way. Elves aren't humans that have some people okay, others questionable and we make it work. They stand for a higher ideal, and the blood elven new code is despicable, lesser (in terms of ideals) and divisive. There is only one way to be the high elf way, and she must oppose all those who

Ever heard of the Troll Wars? The Highborne came to Lordaeron, immediately found trolls, they fought, becoming legitimate enemies, then the High Elves brutally destroyed them wherever they found them because they hated each other. They showed them no mercy, dominating them with the powerful magic, and desecrating their land by establishing Quel'thalas on top of it, and driving the trolls to extinction. It was only when the trolls were able to fight back with powerful voodoo magics that the elves started to lose, and reached out to the new human nation of Strom.

Vereesa is tooootally upholding the "elven way" by murdering and ordering the murder of innocent blood elves she hates. That's what the elves did for millennia against the trolls.

High Elves never behaved the way Vereesa does toward their own.

People need to stop using Theramore pretending the Horde was just being evil by attacking it. The blood elves took part in the attack and defeated someone who'd made themselves an enemy of the Horde and thought they could get away with it by preaching peace and neutrality while at the same time wholeheartedly participating in the war on the Alliance's team.

The blood elves new code is one of practicality in the face of dire circumstances, when the alternative is weakness that will lead to an inevitable bloody demise, as well as that of everyone you love. They don't stand by and squirm and shake their heads at a food source when it's the only one available to them that can help them keep up their strength. And watching the very old, young, and sick around them die from the withdrawals would do nothing to assuage their fears.

Vereesa isn't an animal rights activist either, you know. She "didn't care" whether Alliance killed the Sunreavers' dragonhawks or put them to sleep, and that was for petty hatred toward the blood elves, not out of necessity to keep one's strength up so they could defend themselves in a zombie apocalypse.

It was only "divisive" because Lor'themar literally didn't have the time to put up with Renthar Hawkspear's whining with a horde of zombies dogging their heels daily.

Part of the problem in game is you don't see the full extent of anything. You don't see how united and the elves were or how ideal and near perfection they ran their lives... the treasure of what was lost in the change is lost to most players.

Furthermore I don't see our main blood elf fanbase here really making any effort at all to understand the side of the high elves, despite been given less information on it. This is what I call bias. They don't care enough to look, nor to try to understand. And some would rather call blizzard sloppy writers than try to first really understand what's been said then drawing that conclusion.

I understand the high elves.

Quel'lithien

I understand Renthar Hawkspear and Aurora Skycaller didn't like the idea of killing animals for mana, which is his choice to make, even if I think it was a selfish one for them to forgo such a boon in such dangerous times, especially when it wasn't feeding the addiction that bothered them, but killing an animal in the process, just like one does every day (in a medieval fantasy setting) for almost any meal to give their body nutrients.

That said, I admire their strength of character to refuse, accepting the consequences that came with it, and persevering through so much adversity all those years at Quel'lithien Lodge. And I completely understand their bitterness and anger at Lor'themar, even if I find it tragic that their refusal to accept his help would result in their cursed state a year later (and I hope Renthar's nonsensical death as a rare spawn at the player's hands is non-canon and he comes back to help Auric lead the non-crazy high elves).

Those elves are to be admired. They weren't refusing the gift of the new techniques and sitting back on their laurels. They refused the technique, knowing how bad the withdrawals felt, and still didn't give in when faced with banishment to such a dangerous place as Quel'lithien in the Scourge-infested Plaguelands.

They fought every bit as hard as any blood elf to defend Quel'thalas, and deserve to be angry for their banishment, but I still think they should have done what was best for their people and taken the boost to keep up their strength and defend them from the Scourge.


Allerian Stronghold

I understand these elves, and admire their sacrifice on Outland, but I admire even more that upon returning to Azeroth, they didn't blindly follow their Alliance friends and abandon their kingdom as others have.

These elves, like the Quel'lithien ones, have no problem feeding their hunger for mana, and don't mind resorting to heinous means to do it either. They murder and steal from Broken living in Draenei ruins looking for artifacts from which to siphon mana.

They still find siphoning it directly from a living thing to be deplorable, and resort to pillaging the ruins to keep themselves sustained so they don't join Kael'thas and suck it from people, so take from that what you will. I think it's kind of silly to think murdering Broken and looting their homes is any better than draining it from the creature directly, but whatever.


And when they returned to Azeroth, it seems that they didn't even consider just setting up shop in some Alliance kingdom and abandoning their own. Instead, they returned home, with Auric continuing to see himself as a Farstrider and continuing to uphold real actual high elven ideals by not forsaking his duty to protect the rights and privileges of his people. Namely, ensuring that the high elven pilgrims on Quel'danas were treated fairly and had representation.

Auric talks, rather than immediately resorting to violence and hatred.


Silver Covenant

These ones I don't get as much. I know their potential reasons for hating their kin, but I find them ridiculous, considering they do the exact same things.

1. Animal cruelty - Silver Covenant don't care about animals when it's for petty vengeance against blood elves, as opposed to survival when the blood elves did it to mana worms.

2. Fel magic use - http://wow.gamepedia.com/Summoner_Nolric

3. "Disregarding the sacrifices" of Vereesa's family (she mentions it when talking to blood elf hunter players in the Thas'dorah scenario) - How does murdering every blood elf you see, all of whom Sylvanas gave her life to protect, do anything to honor her family's sacrifices?

One could say she's referring to the blood elves joining the Horde, but they only had to do that because Vereesa's allies betrayed her people twice. First with Garithos, then with the deception in Burning Crusade where they pretended to be interested in bringing them back into the Alliance, only to be spying on them. And it wasn't passive neutral spying. They try to kill blood elves who discover them (but one could say game mechanics hostile mobs blah blah blah), but they also try to kill blood elves to retake a strategic point in the Ghostlands around one of the elves' mooncrystals crucial to the defense of Quel'thalas.

You'd think, her being so involved in Dalaran, that she'd have heard about Garithos sentencing her prince and the most noble, powerful, and selfless among her surviving people to death, and wouldn't just immediately blindly trust the word of a man everyone knows to be a "bastard."

4. Giving in to the addiction - Vereesa herself said that without the love of Rhonin and her sons, she'd have given in, and she was comfy and safe in Dalaran for 7 entire years, married to the leader of the city, and thus afforded every comfort and amenity she'd need in order to cope with the withdrawals, as well as Rhonin helping her by letting her siphon mana from him in small amounts to wean herself off the stuff.

And you don't see Vereesa and the Silver Covenant going on a witch hunt for Auric's group, who did arguably worse things to sate the addiction, since killing walking talking people is probably higher up on the Bad-Things-List than killing vermin.

5. Joining the Horde - (see #3), and also, Rhonin didn't have any problem with them (though evidently felt guilty for the Kirin Tor standing by and doing nothing while Garithos was about to kill so many of them, but I suppose not enough to actually apologize for that, or make Ansirem and Modera apologize, since it's implied that the two of them were actually there at the time), so why does Vereesa?

6. Theramore - Legitimate target and anyone who pretends otherwise is kidding themselves or just straight-up dumb.

7. Rhonin being killed there - He shouldn't have gotten involved in a Horde/Alliance conflict when he was supposed to be neutral. But it is understandable that Vereesa be angry with SOMEONE over his death. It's just idiotic for her to direct that anger at innocent people, doing despicable things to so many, then let the actual culprit go free. Why does she respect the pandaren's criminal justice system more than Dalaran's? She was perfectly willing and happy to join Jaina in breaking every law in the book to take out some of her frustrations on not only innocent shopkeepers, civilians, bank patrons, and combatants defending their rightful homes, but also completely innocent animals.



Basically, I don't understand the Silver Covenant because they don't uphold any of these high ideals people claimthey do. They may claim to be all high and mighty, but as Elisande says in Suramar, they're just a bunch of posers, and have no problem doing any of the sick shit they crucify the blood elves for. Once again, truth bombs coming from a villain who nobody will ever listen to, just like with Garrosh to Thrall in Draenor.

And if it all boils down to misconceptions, and the fact that Vereesa is so childish that she's unwilling to even talk before she makes blanket judgements about innocent people who merely share a single visual trait (green eyes) with someone who did something that enabled Garrosh to hurt someone she loved, then that's just stupid and frustrating.

I don't like the driving force behind a conflict to be people just not talking to each other, so one group (Silver Covenant) believes all the propaganda they hear that supports their hatred of their kin, allowing them to dehumanize them and feel no guilt for all the shit they do to them.

But I especially dislike when all of that is swept under the rug and the writers just ignore it and pretend it didn't happen so they can pretend that group is respected enough to be in charge of another group that actually earned its ranks (Farstriders).