Legion = worst raiding experience of all time?

[WOWandchill]

Undertuned fights
Boring bosses
Ugly environments
Excessive out of raid grinding
High raid accessory costs
Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts at optimal level
RNGesus legendary system

Do these things make Legion raids the WOAT in your mind? Really disappointing after WOD gave so many challenging and satisfying raids.

[SaintDingus]

Undertuned fights
Ugly environments
Excessive out of raid grinding
Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts
RNGesus legendary system

Are the Legion raids really the WOAT in your mind? Really disappointing after WOD gave so many challenging and satisfying raids.

First off, you clearly haven't attempted Trial of Valor because that raid is anything but undertuned, In fact, it's so OVERtuned that they buffed the drops. Ugly environments is not a real complaint because everyone has their own opinion on what they find to look cool or interesting. There is no such thing as EXCESSIVE out of raid grinding. The game provides an experience that rewards you for continually grinding, it's called an MMO dude. The AP system doesn't really hinder alts at all, my entire raid has atleast one alt and no one has complained. Your doing well in a raid is not determined by how many AP points, its personal skill, and anyone dedicated enough to an alt is going to do just fine. I concede, the legendary system is retarded. My final rebuttal to you, How in the hell are you comparing Legion raids to WoD raids?! We JUST started! We JUST got a taste of ToV. That's 2 raids out of a confirmed 5. I'm sorry, but it is waaaaaaay too early to be making the complaints you're making, overall.

- - - Updated - - -

First off, you clearly haven't attempted Trial of Valor because that raid is anything but undertuned, In fact, it's so OVERtuned that they buffed the drops. Ugly environments is not a real complaint because everyone has their own opinion on what they find to look cool or interesting. There is no such thing as EXCESSIVE out of raid grinding. The game provides an experience that rewards you for continually grinding, it's called an MMO dude. The AP system doesn't really hinder alts at all, my entire raid has atleast one alt and no one has complained. Your doing well in a raid is not determined by how many AP points, its personal skill, and anyone dedicated enough to an alt is going to do just fine. I concede, the legendary system is retarded. My final rebuttal to you, How in the hell are you comparing Legion raids to WoD raids?! We JUST started! We JUST got a taste of ToV. That's 2 raids out of a confirmed 5. I'm sorry, but it is waaaaaaay too early to be making the complaints you're making, overall.

Just to add, because I forgot to mention it. With the Artifact knowledge system, Off specs can be caught up to your main in a matter of days. I know because I've done it.

[Flarelaine]

Don't see the point of whining. We ain't seen nothing yet.

[Deleted]

Hell no, Helya will be a pain in the ass to deal with in Mythic difficulty and is a pretty fun fight, ugly environments? c'mon that is a subjective shit, i really like the emerald nightmare and trials of valor, you can raid without "grind" WQ and Mythic+ and you don't any legendary to do it.

[Tradu]

Raiding itself is fine, it's all the systems surrounding it that are godawful.

[ineedacent]

Undertuned fights
Boring bosses
Ugly environments
Excessive out of raid grinding
High raid accessory costs
Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts at optimal level
RNGesus legendary system

Do these things make Legion raids the WOAT in your mind? Really disappointing after WOD gave so many challenging and satisfying raids.

I dont know what you're talking about, i mean i'm doing 3 raids a week with my guild and yeah we're just a casual bunch of people that are building up for mythic at our own pace but we're having solid fun.

- The bosses aren't undertuned, it's just that its easy to gear up to heroic gear level now more than it ever was.
- The bosses definitely are not boring, that will differ from personal opinion.
- Actually the environments for both the raids so far have been pretty unique and amazing so far, but that will also vary from opinion to opinion.
- If youre a cutting edge raider, maybe you' have to farm more but if you take things casually like we do, there is not much farming. It's just additional content to do and you have a choice not to do it.
- What accessory costs aren't high at the start of any expansion? Give me one expansion where mats went out for cheap in the first 5-6 months?
- Yeah it might be a little harder to catch up with offspecs and alts at optimal level if youre a mythic cutting edge raider, but it's not as bad as you're making it sound.
- That is the only problem i can agree on, the legendaries and the randomness of getting one. But eventually once you have a few of them, this wont seem as bad as you think it is.

No matter what blizzard throws at us, some people like you will always complain. First there was no content, now that there is content to do besdies from raids, it feels too much grinding? I mean no-one really is telling you to do all of the stuff you know, if you feel its too much then just back down and think why're youre playing the game because the cutting edge-mythic raiders are still doing stuff and playing the game, without complaining and so are we as a casual bunch of players.

[PeachyKeen]

With the Artifact knowledge system, Off specs can be caught up to your main in a matter of days. I know because I've done it.

You mean in a matter of weeks/months.... You need to have at least 3 golden traits to not be a burden to your raid. That's like 25+ traits. Takes a lot of time for an alt... In previous expansions you could've just bought epics and have a starting HC raiding gear in no time (you still can), but now you are time gated cause of artifact weapon and traits.

[SaintDingus]

You mean in a matter of weeks/months.... You need to have at least 3 golden traits to not be a burden to your raid. That's like 25+ traits. Takes a lot of time for an alt... In previous expansions you could've just bought epics and have a starting HC raiding gear in no time (you still can), but now you are time gated cause of artifact weapon and traits.

You must be mistaken, you quoted me talking about off specs. Off specs do indeed only take days to catch up.

[Cæli]

Ugly environments

hope you're joking

[Accendor]

Undertuned fights

Yeah, apart from Cenarius EN was undertuned. However Trial is now overtuned. They will find the balance

Boring bosses

Which one did you mean? I actually liked all of the bosses thematically.
The voice acting and the whole setting of Nithendra was awesome.
Elerethe Renferal had really cool mechanics with the switch of its forms and abilities mid fight.
Ursoc felt a bit lackluster tbh.
Il'gynoth had some really, really great lore pieces and foreshadowing and while the fight is easy on heroic he is very challenging on mythic.
Dragons of Nightmare have so many mechanics going on and also some nice pieces of Lore tied to them that the only problem is that they were undertuned.
Cenarius was a awesome fight overall from all perspectives.
Xavius again was a good fight, just undertuned (and too chaotic at the end). Also his death quote is really... disappointing.

Ugly environments

Which do you mean? Did you pay attention at all to the places in the emerald nightmare? The fact that you have corrupted versions of the old zones everywhere (which the destroyed Thunderbluff as the most impressive one) was really awesome. Again, Ursoc was boring, can't deny that. And I can understand that some people do not like the Xavius room, but I actually like the premise of it. The darkness, the fog, the creatures lurking inside of it. Seems really fitting to me.

Excessive out of raid grinding

What do you mean? As long as you are not High End Mythic raider there is no need for grind outstide of raids. It gives you something to do, which a GOOD thing.

High raid accessory costs

If you only log in for raids sure, it is expansive. If you just do your emissary cache every day it is usually no problem to pay for them. You are also free to switch professions, it is as easy as never and just farm for yourself. Or look for a guild.

Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts at optimal level

1. The AP system is great
2. Is does not prevent your offspecc, you can easily be 2-3 levels behind your mainspec without losing much. That is totally fine for your OFFSPECC.
3. That is the reason why they are your ALTS and not your MAIN.

RNGesus legendary system

Legendarys currently are not balanced optimal, which is a problem. The range system is fine, the problem (if there is a problem at all) is that legendarys make speccs "better" overall. E.g. the demon hunter legendary ring make a very boring and mediocre talent (Demon Blades) to the best talent in the whole tree and changes how you play the class fundamentally. And it increases your damage by around ~70k.

Do these things make Legion raids the WOAT in your mind? Really disappointing after WOD gave so many challenging and satisfying raids.[/QUOTE]

[Glorious Leader]

Good. Legion is one of the better expansions overalll and if the cost of that is snubing a few raiders its well worth it.

[tikcol]

Hmm. I find your reasons quite true and right to the point.

Which furthers my belief that we do not actually need anything besides LFR.

[Deleted]

Have you ever considered the possibility that you might be lazy?
I'm asking because all of your started threads ever since Legion-launch just scream it.

[Deleted]

Play without addons that tell you everything you need to do and it will be very very hard. The level of customization of weakaura on high end guilds makes all the mechanics seem childish.
Say macro from DBM when you get debuff, makes it even more easy to spread and avoid everything.

How many fight mechanics can you invent in a game when there will always be an easy way to avoid them using an addon.

[Hctaz]

You mean in a matter of weeks/months.... You need to have at least 3 golden traits to not be a burden to your raid. That's like 25+ traits. Takes a lot of time for an alt... In previous expansions you could've just bought epics and have a starting HC raiding gear in no time (you still can), but now you are time gated cause of artifact weapon and traits.

He said off spec not alt.

[guerron]

Undertuned fights
[...]
Excessive out of raid grinding
High raid accessory costs
Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts at optimal level
RNGesus legendary system

I don't know, but to me the first kinda contradicts the second? If fights are easy, what do I need grinding, costly stuff, maxed ap or legendaries for?

[PeachyKeen]

You must be mistaken, you quoted me talking about off specs. Off specs do indeed only take days to catch up.

My bad. Yes, getting OS on par with MS is quite easy.

However my overall point still stands, because you said

The AP system doesn't really hinder alts at all

with what i completely disagree. I know people may have other opinions and want to put lots of hours into an alt, but I want an alt to be an alt for a reason. I want to lvl him up, make/buy some gear for him and go straight to raiding. I can't. I must wait for him to catch up the stupid time-gate game being AK... and then i also have to farm some AP up to actually get traits up. Sorry, never have i seen an expansion that required so much from me to start raiding HCs (or normals pre-wod) on an alt.

You still have to grind/raid to get your gear to be of mythic lvl - the fun MMO/part.

Imo AK should be account bound in the sense, that your alts can straight up buy AK up to 3 AK lvls behind the main account. Without the time gate joke.

[Meiffert]

Undertuned fights
Boring bosses

EN is only the first instance of multiraid first tier. If you want to compare, you should compare it to Mogu'shan Vaults or Highmaul.
I didn't personally like EN too much, but the two mentioned instances weren't that amazing either. Since the Nighthold (like BRF) will be dropping higher ilvl, it will be the major instance of this tier that will be raided for a much longer time.
As a result I think it's reasonable of Blizzard to put their best ideas for boss design in there and EN being on the weaker side is acceptable to me.

As far as difficulty goes, again, MSV and Highmaul only has 1 tougher boss between them (Mar'gok). Everything else in Hihgmaul and all bosses in MSV were cleared very fast as well. EN might feel even slightly easier I guess because of the titanforged mechanic and legendaries (the tuning doesn't account for those in my opinion), which leaves Xavius as the only boss where tuning was really off.

Excessive out of raid grinding

The first months of a new expansion have always been a lot more grindy. You had challenge modes to run (in WoD they could give you 640/646 gear, which was higher than heroic dungeon gear), reputations to farm by doing dailies (to buy that one item or enchant on exalted from each faction) etc.
Legion has renamed or slightly altered some of these systems, but they are not really that different underneath.

High raid accessory costs

This is just inflation though (assuming you are talking about the cost of consumables/repairs). Completing quest, dungeons, battlegrounds etc. used to reward some silver, now you get hundreds of gold and many players farmed hundreds of thousands in garrisons.
Things aren't artificially made more expensive by Blizzard, it's the players who have millions of gold that drive the prices up.

Bad AP system preventing offspecs and alts at optimal level

The cost of traits increases exponentially, just like the multiplier you get from Artifact Knowledge. As a result, you can keep your alts or offspecs at a reasonable level (say, 3-5 traits behind) for a very little cost (if you are say at 30 traits now, you can have an offspec with 25 traits for a less total AP than a single trait would cost you on your main weapon).
Yes, your offspec will still be slightly behind and that's been done on purpose. In the past, classes with multiple specs had an advantage of having access to multiple niches (such as you could play a combat rogue on a cleave fight, subtlety on single target and assassination on an execute encounter). This made classes with multiple specs a lot better overall, because they almost always had a strong spec for every fight.
It wasn't an accident that mages, rogues, hunters, warlock were considered top dps in almost every tier while dps priests or paladins were nonexistent in high-end guilds.

As far as alts go, the AK research increase on characters that are behind acts as a catch-up mechanic.
New alts will be behind for a while (I think they should catch up to be about a week behind in about 2 months). This is similar to the way new alts were behind in legendary quest progression in previous expansions (cloak and ring), and similarly there were catch-up mechanics increasing the drop rate of quest items later on.
Now, you are obviously perfectly entitled to dislike this (you could prefer a fresh 110 to be instantly on the same level as your main, so you could play it on progression straight away), but that has never been the case in WoW.

RNGesus legendary system

This is a point that I agree on. Titanforged and legendaries are extremly difficult to tune around and it causes some issues.

Do these things make Legion raids the WOAT in your mind? Really disappointing after WOD gave so many challenging and satisfying raids.

Worst of all times? That's just ridiculous. Bosses in classic had 1-2 mechanics (usually a debuff that you dispel or an add that you kill).
The raids and the whole game is getting better with every expansion. You might argue that an individual decision can be a minor setback in the short term, but overall the game has improved by miles over the years.

If you honestly think that the game used to be overall better at some point in the past, why don't you play that expansion? There are unofficial realms where you can do that. Everyone I know who tried it came back to live servers after 1-2 weeks with nostalgia cured.

In previous expansions you could've just bought epics and have a starting HC raiding gear in no time (you still can), but now you are time gated cause of artifact weapon and traits.

Your new alt in WoD had no ring, while everyone else had a 795 legendary increasing their dps by 30 %.

[Leih]

Haven't even seen the first tier raid yet

[caervek]

Well, I like it more than WoD.

The EN fights are varied and some quite fun.
The Odyn fight in ToV is cool, reminds me of Ulduar somewhat.
The Guarm fight in ToV is excellent, best I've seen in years, reminds me of Naxx, simple-ish mechanics but punishing and if you screw up you're toast.
The Helya fight in ToV however is an over designed joke of a mess, a prime example of how not to do it and a real shame considering how good Guarm is in comparison.