Tyrande and the Night Elves are hypocrites

[Zulkhan]

I always thought they use more necromancy magic rather than arcane because we saw them regenerate lei shen and probably they were the responsible of revival jindo in zul gurub

Blood Elves outright describe the Zandalari's magic as a combination of arcane and shadow. That's precisely why it caught their interest (while triggering the Kirin Tor going all "OMG WE HAVE TO CLEANSE THAT UNHOLY PRACTICING OF MAGIC").

[Combatbutler]

Blood Elves outright describe the Zandalari's magic as a combination of arcane and shadow. That's precisely why it caught their interest (while triggering the Kirin Tor going all "OMG WE HAVE TO CLEANSE THAT UNHOLY PRACTICING OF MAGIC").

That is one of the reasons the Zandalari would be a great addition for the horde, just imagine the stuff these two races could develop together.

[turboether]

I always thought they use more necromancy magic rather than arcane because we saw them regenerate lei shen and probably they were the responsible of revival jindo in zul gurub

Voodoo seems to be a catch-all category of primal magical practices that span the entire left half chronicles cosmic forces diagram. Raising things from the dead seems death-aligned at face value, but the core voodoo is drawn from spirit magic (via loa), which includes transcending a physical body and restoring a spirit to its body, which is just as likely life-aligned (like similar practices of monk and shaman spirit magic).

[Zandalariprelate]

Voodoo seems to be a catch-all category of primal magical practices that span the entire left half chronicles cosmic forces diagram. Raising things from the dead seems death-aligned at face value, but the core voodoo is drawn from spirit magic (via loa), which includes transcending a physical body and restoring a spirit to its body, which is just as likely life-aligned (like similar practices of monk and shaman spirit magic).

Yeah maybe is some school of life with some death magic there who knows since probably the zandalari builder their empire with the rescue knowledge of the black empire and maybe from the rest of some titan forge creature like a injured iron dwarf or mogu

[ravenmoon]

It was still a Highborne who led those rookies and taught them practicies considered ineffective by Blood Elves these days.

For the most part Highborne remain relatively out of date when it comes to magic. The Shen'dralar/Nightborne are quite another matter though.

you know the whole "highborne remain relatively out of date" comes from the fans based on their wrong interpretation of Azshara zone which had even me believing them.

Turns out it was the rookies and there is nothing about highborne magic being out of date at all, in fact quite the contrary, Dire Maul shows the shen'dralar highborne have been scrying on the world all this time, it was their scrying that picked up Deathwing's activities that led to their allying with the night elves, and yeah, they've allied with them, they are not a part of them, Wolfheart makes it clear.

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and even then the Blood elves are "what the fuck is this advanced stuff? , oh wait, nevermind, just inverse the matrix in the thing and then we gud"

in all fairness, spellbreaking is new technique post sundering, it is quite possible the nightborne have also developed it well, but I think the quest text is meant to show how intelligent blood elves can be and resourceful - which is their MO, and the nightborne are quite arrogant, think their just so above everyone becasue of their advanced civilization, that they're being sloppy on some things thinking that no one could possibly be anywhere close to them.

Look at how Elisande dismisses the other elven groups gathered against her, like they are idiots - we see Occuleth take on his former student, and listen to how arrogant she is, which leads to her mistakes in her spellwork he easily exploits. Ofc not all nightborne are arrogant or sloppy, but some are. They are clearly talented, even Stellagosa is amazed at Valtrois' ability, and Valtrois unlike high and blood elves is not awed at all by a blue dragon and actually thinks she is more capable - at the start of that scene you think Valtrois is over her head with stellagosa, but by the end you end up getting the impression Valtrois is incredibly skilled and powerful with magic.

I would not write off any shen'dralar highborne, nightborne, moongouard - they have been shown and had described moments of incredible power and magic usage, it's the night elf alliance group who's magic is susceptible to some ridicule as it is in its early stages or relearning, not the others. And it should be noted that for novices only a few weeks into training in Cata quests, they made phenomenal progress... i won't dismiss them as a joke.

[Zulkhan]

you know the whole "highborne remain relatively out of date" comes from the fans based on their wrong interpretation of Azshara zone which had even me believing them.

Not really. The Blood Elf of the region specifically criticized the technique used, not how it was used. The failing on the latter could have been blamed on the rookies entirely, but the way the Highborne taught the rookies a practice Blood Elves banned thousands of years before says all it needs saying about the matter.

There's must be a reason if Night Elf mages look more and more affiliated with the Kirin Tor rather than Highborne as expansions go on. The Highborne may have been a catalyst, but is mostly with the Kirin Tor that Night Elves are now catching up.

Turns out it was the rookies and there is nothing about highborne magic being out of date at all, in fact quite the contrary, Dire Maul shows the shen'dralar highborne have been scrying on the world all this time, it was their scrying that picked up Deathwing's activities that led to their allying with the night elves, and yeah, they've allied with them, they are not a part of them, Wolfheart makes it clear.

They may have scrutinized the world but nonetheless remained in their own bubble. Sure, they know some cool tricks but still lived in utter isolation for thousands of years, with a good chunk of them entirely occupied in sucking magic from a demon just until WoW. They definitely weren't in the same situation of High/Blood Elves or even the Kirin Tor to keep progressing and advancing from an academic standpoint.

[ravenmoon]

Not really. The Blood Elf of the region specifically criticized the technique used, not how it was used. The failing on the latter could have been blamed on the rookies entirely, but the way the Highborne taught the rookies a practice Blood Elves banned thousands of years before says all it needs saying about the matter.

I agree, the method to teach information was scrutinized, however it still really isn't any solid bases to conclude all highborne magic is grossly outdated. The male Blood Elf there comments with respect to it's military application, for all we know the Highborne teacher was supremely confident she had that loophole in hand in case anyone might meddle. OR it could actually be the most efficient way to learn given the circumstance, despite it's flaw and she had used it taken a risk. We can't assume their magic is outdated when there are very plausible reasons that method of learning was employed.

Look at how fast the night elves were learning in so short a space of time. Also note that the construct is only able to be hijacked once the teacher is assassinated, not before. Also at worse you could say the highborne wasn't thinking in terms of combat or battle perhaps becasue she had it in hand or just not use to being in such a situation - they were in a remote part of azshara, and it seems they were learning peacefully, not far from them another group of mages is been taught by a human archmage - the section far away from the conflict, she may have thought it was as safe enough a place in Azshara to do their excursion/exerices

There's must be a reason if Night Elf mages look more and more affiliated with the Kirin Tor rather than Highborne as expansions go on. The Highborne may have been a catalyst, but is mostly with the Kirin Tor that Night Elves are now catching up.

I have reserved judgement on that till i find out more. The siblings in Azshara looking for their parents are the only indication or hint of the Highborne post Wolfheart, they are strangely missing from night elf activity and affairs they should really be at the forefront of, but we are not shown anything, so i can't conclude that. For all I know, the siblings could be new night elf mages not highborne either, a pair that went with the army, and were some of the highborne that stayed with the night elves instead of joining Darth'Remar's Zin'Azshari group in exile, giving up magic, until the cataclysm era when the ban is lifted and they resume their highborne identities. We just don't know.

I can't recall at the moment any other night elf mage kirin'tor affiliation. As far as I know night elf mage training is still taught by the Highborne... oh and seems that blue dragonflight and possibly others are feeding the Kirin'tor their ancient knowledge.

They may have scrutinized the world but nonetheless remained in their own bubble. Sure, they know some cool tricks but still lived in utter isolation for thousands of years, with a good chunk of them entirely occupied in sucking magic from a demon just until WoW. They definitely weren't in the same situation of High/Blood Elves or even the Kirin Tor to keep progressing and advancing from an academic standpoint.

That's true, and they fell to ruin, their libraries are pillaged, however their books do return themselves at least. Saying that we shouldn't assume their capabilities as outdated we really haven't seen them in action save for Estulan in Feralas who takes care of the Ogre warlock rather easily. I know some highborne are on the field in Stonetalon mountain battle where the druid school is bombed, but don't see them in action anywhere else.

Utter isolation doesn't mean you're irrelevant or inadequate, look at the nightborne and the moonguard, they are both formidable and both have been in isolation with constrasting fortunes and access to power. Still, when we see them in action they are both portrayed formidably

[Combatbutler]

They are clearly talented, even Stellagosa is amazed at Valtrois' ability, and Valtrois unlike high and blood elves is not awed at all by a blue dragon and actually thinks she is more capable - at the start of that scene you think Valtrois is over her head with stellagosa, but by the end you end up getting the impression Valtrois is incredibly skilled and powerful with magic.

I'd say this has more to do with the fact that she had little to no interaction with blue dragons during her lifetime, while high and blood elves know that the blue dragons are the most knowledgeable about the arcane arts on all of Azeroth.

[ravenmoon]

I'd say this has more to do with the fact that she had little to no interaction with blue dragons during her lifetime, while high and blood elves know that the blue dragons are the most knowledgeable about the arcane arts on all of Azeroth.

While that might be possible, I doubt it, Nar'thalas academy had blue dragons studying alongside night elf scholars as they unravelled and studied the mysteries of the arcane, in the golden age before the night elves went really arrogant. It is likely that Valtrois studied at Nar'thalas since it is in Suramar country and was more like the most prestigious centre for magical study.

Whiles Valtrois is clearly arrogant .. in a cute way .. she does seem to be quite capable and not over-awed by Stellagosa. Valtrois is a 10k year old + ancient (most likely) and a very talented arcanist, she is geekily excited to have a chance to question the dragon about her innate ability once mutual respect is secured. However you do get the feeling Valtrois values her own pedigree more, coming off almost as a brag about her calcualatiions over the dragon's natural ability. Doesn't stop her from being curious though.

[Combatbutler]

While that might be possible, I doubt it, Nar'thalas academy had blue dragons studying alongside night elf scholars as they unravelled and studied the mysteries of the arcane, in the golden age before the night elves went really arrogant. It is likely that Valtrois studied at Nar'thalas since it is in Suramar country and was more like the most prestigious centre for magical study.

Whiles Valtrois is clearly arrogant .. in a cute way .. she does seem to be quite capable and not over-awed by Stellagosa. Valtrois is a 10k year old + ancient (most likely) and a very talented arcanist, she is geekily excited to have a chance to question the dragon about her innate ability once mutual respect is secured. However you do get the feeling Valtrois values her own pedigree more, coming off almost as a brag about her calcualatiions over the dragon's natural ability. Doesn't stop her from being curious though.

Blue dragons simply are the masters of the arcane on Azeroth, always have been, they might hang out with mortal mages ,but at the end of day they are still better. Due to knowledge and pedigree.

[ravenmoon]

Blue dragons simply are the masters of the arcane on Azeroth, always have been, they might hang out with mortal mages ,but at the end of day they are still better. Due to knowledge and pedigree.

not all blue dragons are better than every mortal mage. And the text suggests they were more than "hanging out", dragons had a head start on the mortal races, being sired by aspects who are really old and knowledgeable, however like the night elves and subsequent races have shown, like the Eredar for example, there is no limit to how they can grow, and that's just down to the individual and how they use their time.

Do you think an Aspect could have taken down Queen Azshara?

[Combatbutler]

Do you think an Aspect could have taken down Queen Azshara?

Yes I most certainly believe that, mortals have freak accidents so to speak, but on the general level Dragons are simply better at everything, they have better aptitude, are more knowledgeable, since they catalogue all magic, basically the kirin tor on steroids. Are very long lived and are biologically superior.

The mortals now have a chance to take their spot, because the blue ragons are on the brink of extinction, their secrets are pretty unguarded and they have no future.

[Deleted]

Night Elves have always been hypocrites. They say they love the nature but still they ruined Teldrassil and built a city on top of it. Also there are many night elves working for the Venture Co and back in Zangarmarsh some of the Cenarion Expedition night elves sided with Coilscar Naga while the tauren didn't budge.

Tauren are the real protectors of the nature. Arcane has corrupted the minds of the night elves and they are more demons than anything else. Why did Illidan become a demon? Because he already was one. All the night elves are. Absorbing the fel just made him look like one too.

Night Elves are enemies of the Light and I don't understand why Khadgar and Kirin Tor are working with them.

[Magnagarde]

Blood elves are fel-changed high elves of Quel'thalas which are former night elves, banished by their kin for the way they used arcane magic.

This is why the night elves are as hostile as they are towards them and this is why they were as suspicious of them back during TBC's timeline.

[Aquamonkey]

Blood elves are fel-changed high elves of Quel'thalas

No, they aren't. Even HElves would be fel-changed if they stuck around Quel'Thalas or Outland after the Third War. The difference between H/BElves are entirely political or just ignorance (on the certain HElves' part) about the situation.

This is why the night elves are as hostile as they are towards them and this is why they were as suspicious of them back during TBC's timeline.

The NElves interacted just fine with Kael and the BElves during WC3.

[Magnagarde]

No, they aren't. Even HElves would be fel-changed if they stuck around Quel'Thalas or Outland after the Third War. The difference between H/BElves are entirely political or just ignorance (on the certain HElves' part) about the situation.

No, they are changed by fel, only mildly though, resulting in the green color of their eyes and the clearly more reddish skintone. Didn't you ever ask yourself how they happened to change in appearance.

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The NElves interacted just fine with Kael and the BElves during WC3.

That proves one of my other points that I've made quite a while ago and that is the lack of consistency in Blizzard's storytelling. They created the NE invasion plan on Quel'thalas just so they could justify their OOC plans of tucking the BE into the Horde. They were desperate for a plot to get their change across.

[Aquamonkey]

No, they are changed by fel, only mildly though, resulting in the green color of their eyes and the clearly more reddish skintone. Didn't you ever ask yourself how they happened to change in appearance.

Green eyes is not what defines them, that is game mechanics. HElves are just as affected by fel. The difference is entirely political.

The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. (AskCDev3)

[Magnagarde]

Green eyes is not what defines them, that is game mechanics. HElves are just as affected by fel. The difference is entirely political.

The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. (AskCDev3)

It does define a lot of things. It defines them politically too, though indirectly, because if you look at it, the ones that are still affiliated with the Alliance are the ones that were never exposed to fel. If you look at every single high elf affiliated to the Alliance, then you will notice that all of them still have blue eyes and a pale skin. In turn, all the elves that are part of the Horde were afflicted by fel. All the elves affiliated to the Alliance are unafflicted by fel.

Being afflicted by fel and not being part of the Alliance right now goes hand in hand and as such, fel-affliction is the key indirect affiliation-defining element for high elves, so to speak. The reason why is because being afflicted by fel automatically tells you where that high elf was and where he/she wasn't during these defining moments that lead to the fel-affliction in the first place.

They are obviously the same race, but one that is growing appart, both in appearance and affiliation.

[Zulkhan]

That proves one of my other points that I've made quite a while ago and that is the lack of consistency in Blizzard's storytelling. They created the NE invasion plan on Quel'thalas just so they could justify their OOC plans of tucking the BE into the Horde. They were desperate for a plot to get their change across.

Not really. The only inconcistency is how Night Elves apparently resented High Elves as well for the events of the WotA even though Tyrande got along just fine with them little after they renamed themselves Blood Elves.

However, when it comes to Blood Elves specifically, there's also the matter of their new siphoning practicies which Kael and his Blood Elves had yet to embrace when they met the Night Elves back in WC3. Coupled with the fel radiation caused by the new crystals, a reignited feeling of hostility and distrust towards Blood Elves specifically made quite sense.

Again, it just didn't have much sense how Night Elves apparently held a grudge towards High Elves as well (the ones that joined the Alliance) about the WotA events given their attitude in Frozen Throne.

[Friendlyimmolation]

No, they are changed by fel, only mildly though, resulting in the green color of their eyes and the clearly more reddish skintone. Didn't you ever ask yourself how they happened to change in appearance.

The whole skin tone thing im pretty sure is entierly circulated by you, never has that been stated anywhere and you run into plenty of blood elves just as pale as high elves.