Huge Feral Nerfs

[Hobbes0773]

There is some very heavy contradiction in what is being said here. It is quite funny that "preference" is coming up once again as justification for changes. lol

I never said it was a justification for the changes. Stop reading to reply and start reading to listen. DB was a bit OP and it was taken too often. That is the reason for the change. Preference is what should determine this talent tier, except for the situational use of Renewal. Blizzard has stated they like some talents to be taken on preference. This is not a debatable point. This is an objective truth.

Note that one of our overarching goals with Patch 7.1.5 is to increase talent diversity by making some of the less popular talents more attractive, which may open up new styles of play and new ways to approach different situations for all specializations, not just those we've listed here.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...ge=14#post-268

Not a single person is sitting here saying the spec is dead or threatening to reroll over this change.

I never said it was. Don't hyperbolize and put words in my mouth.

Why the hell is this even coming up to begin with? To talk about overblown here it is.

Because you won't stop posting about it. I guarantee if you stopped posting about it that it would disappear. You are the only one blowing things out of proportion with objective falsehoods and misconceptions about the relative strength of DB vs WC.

[Lycanoth]

I never said it was a justification for the changes. Stop reading to reply and start reading to listen.






I never said it was. Don't hyperbolize and put words in my mouth.



Because you won't stop posting about it. I guarantee if you stopped posting about it that it would disappear. You are the only one blowing things out of proportion with objective falsehoods and misconceptions about the relative strength of DB vs WC.

It was clearly implied just like when it came up with your beyond unreasonable logic on why SR should be nerfed.

How is it blowing things out of proportion? Why am I not surprised you took it that way? I am here to discuss the changes and all you have done in this whole thread is say the nerfs were needed, get over it and get on. If you do not want to offer anything meaningful to the thread then you should stop posting.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...ge=14#post-268

Now I know you are trolling.

I have brought that up so many times in this thread. The fact you still continue to ignore is icing on the cake.

The current nerfs to displacer beast is not going to change anything on what is being taken.

[Hobbes0773]

It was clearly implied

Yes. That is why I outright refuted your statement just now. It was not implied. You just want to hear what you want to hear instead of what I am saying.

How is it blowing things out of proportion?

Because the discussion has been exhausted yet you insist on running it in circles. You are essentially Teddabear now. Congrats.

If you do not want to offer anything meaningful to the thread then you should stop posting.

I think you should take a dose of your own advice. Which is the exact advice I gave you one post ago. But you just want to keep beating a dead horse and blowing a tiny nerf out of proportion with blatent falsehoods and ill-conceived perceptions. Someone here has to maintain sanity and calm the waters after you go chicken little over a 10 second CD and 2 second sprint nerf.

[Lycanoth]

Yes. That is why I outright refuted your statement just now. It was not implied. You just want to hear what you want to hear instead of what I am saying.



Because the discussion has been exhausted yet you insist on running it in circles. You are essentially Teddabear now. Congrats.



I think you should take a dose of your own advice. Which is the exact advice I gave you one post ago. But you just want to keep beating a dead horse and blowing a tiny nerf out of proportion with blatent falsehoods and ill-conceived perceptions. Someone here has to maintain sanity and calm the waters after you go chicken little over a 10 second CD and 2 second sprint nerf.

You need to go re-read the several post by multiple people in this thread on why that simply is not going to work. At this point the exact same can be said about you except you have offered nothing in this thread which ultimately makes you worse than teddabear.

Honestly right now this thread has been derailed to beyond saving because you seem to take a large amount of my post as some sort of personal attack. If you paid attention to my post you would have noticed that the nerf to displacer beast is not what I have a problem with.

[Hobbes0773]

You need to go re-read the several post by multiple people in this thread on why that simply is not going to work. At this point the exact same can be said about you except you have offered nothing in this thread which ultimately makes you worse than teddabear.

Honestly right now this thread has been derailed to beyond saving because you seem to take a large amount of my post as some sort of personal attack. If you paid attention to my post you would have noticed that the nerf to displacer beast is not what I have a problem with.

You really need to stop reading to reply and start reading to listen. Not a single thing you pointed out was unaddressed or ignored by me. I have addressed them all. You just have nothing that can convince you that you are being absurd.

The only thing we agree on is that this thread is beyond saving. That started the moment you found it.

Clearly you won't stop replying though. I guess I will just be back periodically to re-illustrate my points every time you repeat yourself.

[Lycanoth]

You really need to stop reading to reply and start reading to listen. Not a single thing you pointed out was unaddressed or ignored by me. I have addressed them all. You just have nothing that can convince you that you are being absurd.

The only thing we agree on is that this thread is beyond saving. That started the moment you found it.

Clearly you won't stop replying though. I guess I will just be back periodically to re-illustrate my points every time you repeat yourself.

You have been doing this the whole time. Acknowledging it with a terrible reply like "Get over it and move on" is just as bad if not worse than out right ignoring it.

You never had any intention to discuss anything in this thread outside of your very first couple of post that got shot down almost immediately.

[Hobbes0773]

You have been doing this the whole time. Acknowledging it with a terrible reply like "Get over it and move on" is just as bad if not worse than out right ignoring it.

You never had any intention to discuss anything in this thread outside of your very first couple of post that got shot down almost immediately.

It has already been discussed. Find a new topic. And they weren't shut down. Saying it doesn't make it true. Sorry Teddabear.

(oh and you can stop with the "no i dont u do" posts. The I'm rubber you're glue strat isn't going to work either.)

[Lycanoth]

It has already been discussed. Find a new topic. And they weren't shut down. Saying it doesn't make it true. Sorry Teddabear.

Back at you once again.
No one is forcing you to post here. If you think there is nothing else to be said here then leave. There is still plenty to be said on the subject of the PTR changes regardless if you think so or not.

[Reiziger]

Where's my goddamn popcorn when I need it

[Hobbes0773]

Where's my goddamn popcorn when I need it

No shit. This devolved into "NO YOU LEAVE" and well...fuck it. I might just do it. Clearly they won't be satisfied without the last word (even if it consists of "NO U R THE CANCER" and nothing more). I have been baited into arguing with a 12 year old troll that can't handle minor changes on an unfinished PTR.

inb4 the kid pumps his chest in victory and rewords everything he did as though I did it and he is some sort of white knight for ferals.

[Lycanoth]

No shit. This devolved into "NO YOU LEAVE" and well...fuck it. I might just do it. Clearly they won't be satisfied without the last word (even if it consists of "NO U R THE CANCER" and nothing more). I have been baited into arguing with a 12 year old troll that can't handle minor changes on an unfinished PTR.

inb4 the kid pumps his chest in victory and rewords everything he did as though I did it and he is some sort of white knight for ferals.

What does this even have to do with anything at this point?

[Zanzha]

Christ all this over a couple of extra seconds on Displacer Veast CD, literally what.

Wild charge and DB have very clearly defined different roles which actually lead to me running WC more often even without this change:

WC gives shorter range mobility that does require a target and has a significantly lower cooldown, along with all the other forms it is generally better when you need to cover shorter distances frequently or stick to a moving target, for example, (especially after DB nerf) it's better for multidotting on odyn during the first two phases where you can charge to your secondary target with combo points ready, unload bleeds then skullbash on the return, then be ready to do the same again for the next refresh, on the same fight you can also make good use of the unshifted charge to move around the room to collect your runic protection buff on mythic.

Displacer has a longer range and a dash attached to the end which helps travelling longer distances and does not require a target at the cost of a significantly longer cooldown, which is typically useful when dealing with less frequent travel over extended distances, like when you are tasked with portal duty on dragons for example.

Both have moments where they can shine, displacer has it's uses but the difference isn't as clearly defined right now as you're looking at a 15 second difference rather than a 40 second difference or whatever it's going to be come the patch. As a result some of the situations where you wouldn't think about what to take, because why not just stick with displacer, as it's never in a position where it can really be the wrong choice, you may now find yourself taking wild charge.

[Hobbes0773]

- - - Updated - - -

stuff

Please god let it die. The first question in any discussion should be "what would it take to change my mind" and that person has their answer at "nothing" making the discussion pointless.

[Lycanoth]

Christ all this over a couple of extra seconds on Displacer Veast CD, literally what.

Wild charge and DB have very clearly defined different roles which actually lead to me running WC more often even without this change:

WC gives shorter range mobility that does require a target and has a significantly lower cooldown, along with all the other forms it is generally better when you need to cover shorter distances frequently or stick to a moving target, for example, (especially after DB nerf) it's better for multidotting on odyn during the first two phases where you can charge to your secondary target with combo points ready, unload bleeds then skullbash on the return, then be ready to do the same again for the next refresh, on the same fight you can also make good use of the unshifted charge to move around the room to collect your runic protection buff on mythic.

Displacer has a longer range and a dash attached to the end which helps travelling longer distances and does not require a target at the cost of a significantly longer cooldown, which is typically useful when dealing with less frequent travel over extended distances, like when you are tasked with portal duty on dragons for example.

Both have moments where they can shine, displacer has it's uses but the difference isn't as clearly defined right now as you're looking at a 15 second difference rather than a 40 second difference or whatever it's going to be come the patch. As a result some of the situations where you wouldn't think about what to take, because why not just stick with displacer, as it's never in a position where it can really be the wrong choice, you may now find yourself taking wild charge.

@Zanzha - First off thank you for actually presenting reasonable points and trying to strike up a proper discussion.

Anyways...

That is not the reason people are upset with this. If you look at it that way then yeah it sounds really stupid to complain about. Blizzard isn't really notorious on paying attention to the trickle down effect or the complete flip flop of a problem they are trying to fix. I am more worried about the fact that this could have been done way better to address the overall problem here (which this change alone doesn't even do to begin with).

Honestly if we are looking at this specific tier of talents I would rather just see Renewal removed and potentially be added to Restoration Affinity for both Feral and Balance. Guardians Guttoral Roars minus the incapacitation roar part would fit way better in that row than some crappy heal for feral druid. Not really sure what Balance could get instead.

If the whole idea of 7.1.5 is to give players more choice in what talents to take then nerfing DB is going to do the exact opposite of that for that specific scenario because it is getting really close to making Wild Charge the only option for that. For example I already swap to Wild Charge on Odyn, Ill'gynoth and sometimes Cenarius because I have that choice to while DB is still a solid choice. Renewal is still terrible there but if we had guttorial roars instead then that whole tier would be competitve in that situation plus a few other fights like Renferal and gathering clouds etc..

All I am saying is there are better ways to making the other choices a reliable pick than making the current park n bark worse to use.

[Zanzha]

I mean it is pretty stupid to complain about because as you mentioned a large part of that problem is renewal, not the other two, it's just out of place on that tier.

Guttural roars would be nice though with only the one roar for it to effect it would be pretty nice to have roar of the crowd baked in.

IMHO Jagged wounds needs to be baseline, opening up room for a utility healing tier similar to what we had in mop with renewal, nature's vigil, and something else as HoTW no longer fits.

I still think that displacer was too much on the strong side and needed to be brought in line so that it isn't something you just have and forget about.

[Lycanoth]

Unless I am missing something really OP with guttural roars then that would be really good.

Make JW baseline
Replace Renewal with Guttural Roars
Move Renewal to where JW was

This would give Feral some great utility in mythic+ as well.

Potentially creating a problem with Sabertooth but other than that Elunes Guidance would start seeing use on fights too.

[Zanzha]

If you make JW baseline you have to scrap the rest of the tier as well, no way could renewal compete with a dps talent like sabretooth or EG, SOTF wouldn't come into it as it's on the SR tier.

Would have to be

Renewal - Natures Vigil (without the damage buff) - Something else

[Lycanoth]

I would rather see those two talents removed for Feral. Renewal has the problem of being out performed while Sabertooth can end up creating problems down the road. I like Elunes Guidance and would use it if JW wasn't a talent in the same tier.

[Glorious Leader]

The gist of the argument you are using here boils down to "Blizzard wanted to nerf it because reasons". Get out of here with that trash right now.

Virtually every change can be reduced to this. Rarely are changes made to the unambiguosly positive or negative. It really comes to developer tastes. Unfortunately we kinda get saddled with that. This is exacerbated by the conceit that the developers are somehow "artists".

[Lycanoth]

Virtually every change can be reduced to this. Rarely are changes made to the unambiguosly positive or negative. It really comes to developer tastes. Unfortunately we kinda get saddled with that. This is exacerbated by the conceit that the developers are somehow "artists".

Yeah and that is really crappy. Looking at the terrible state a few classes were launched with at the start of this expansion really shows there is a major disconnect between developer and player.