Alt Right leader in DC gives speech "Hail Trump, hail victory"

[May90]

I think you may want to switch "patriotism" with "nationalism". You can be a pragmatic patriot, I'd say.

I don't think patriotism can exist without, at least, a bit of nationalism. Patriotism means putting your nation first and others second, and it is very hard to do so without also putting more value in your nation than others - which is a proto-nationalism.

No this is a lie, for example the UK recently voted to leave the EU. They are developed and doing relatively good.

First, small relapses happen. Second, leaving the EU doesn't mean they've rejected the idea of globalism (just look at how urgently their companies are establishing trade relations with Europe right now, foreseeing the upcoming change), they've just denied its particular implementation.

Even after quitting the EU, the UK still is going to have a very advanced immigration system. Many people don't realize that, but, even given how hard it is to move from poor countries to the first world, countries like the UK still have a much more open system in place than most other places. Try to move, say, to China - they barely have a functional immigration system there, getting citizenship is a nightmare, and likely you will always be perceived as a second-class citizen. The UK is still going to be much closer to globalism than, probably, 95% other countries.

[Mormolyce]

Yes but merely being "formed" is not what makes a society successful. Prosperous societies were made so mostly by people born in that society.

So America is great because of native Americans?

[Slant]

I don't think patriotism can exist without, at least, a bit of nationalism. Patriotism means putting your nation first and others second, and it is very hard to do so without also putting more value in your nation than others - which is a proto-nationalism.

Meh, we've had this debate before on this forum (GenOT that is, not you and me). There is a difference between those too, but I can't be arsed to think any longer tonight. I'm heading to bed. :P

[PC2]

So America is great because of native Americans?

Yes the portion that are native Americans have helped the US. My point is not to minimize the contribution of Americans who moved here from other countries, only to point out that the clear majority of Americans to ever live were born here, they were not immigrants.

[Glorious Leader]

Yes the portion that are native Americans have helped the US.

That's a sick joke. Yea they helped. By being exterminated.

[Macaquerie]

Yes the portion that are native Americans have helped the US. My point is not to minimize the contribution of Americans who moved here from other countries, only to point out that the clear majority of Americans to ever live were born here, they were not immigrants.

In most countries, second and third generation individuals are still considered to be immigrants regardless of whether they were native born or not, do not receive automatic citizenship, and in some cases, can NEVER become citizens either in their country of birth OR the country their ancestors immigrated from. Thanks to helpful laws like the 14th Amendment, we don't have that problem in the USA, but plenty of people born on American soil can and do identify as immigrants and with foreign cultures.

[LilSaihah]

I don't think patriotism can exist without, at least, a bit of nationalism. Patriotism means putting your nation first and others second, and it is very hard to do so without also putting more value in your nation than others - which is a proto-nationalism.

Maybe it's just my interpretation of the words, but I think they're the opposite way around.

Patriots are proud of their country. They don't necessarily put a material priority on it but they do believe it is 'the best' country.
Nationalists do put their country first, & above other countries.

[May90]

Maybe it's just my interpretation of the words, but I think they're the opposite way around.

Patriots are proud of their country. They don't necessarily put a material priority on it but they do believe it is 'the best' country.
Nationalists do put their country first, & above other countries.

I see a problem with it. When one sees their country as special, they inherently see other countries as somewhat inferior - not necessarily inferior as in "worse", but, at least, inferior as in "matter less". This is already a dangerous presumption, and it strongly discourages equal interaction with other nations. Without equal interaction, there are breeding grounds for nationalism.

I think nationalism is only possible to avoid when you see humanity as a whole and don't separate people into "nations", "ethnicities" and other arbitrary divisions. I'm not saying one should ignore these terms completely, but they shouldn't define how one sees the world. However, how can one not separate people into nations, when they are patriotic, as in seeing their country/nation as special? There is an inherent contradiction here.

I don't think minor patriotism is bad; after all, we are all interested primarily in the place we live in becoming better. But there is a threshold beyond which it becomes more harmful than helpful, and, in my opinion, that threshold is much lower than many people believe.

[Damajin]

Speaking of all this beautiful world, you somehow completely forgot the individual and his/her personality. Maybe you think that all people should be, or even are, robots living the whole life the way they were programmed - but nope, you see, some people see the world as wider than only limited to some small community they, by pure chance, happened to be born in. An AI made on a factory to work on the factory can decide that there is more to life than this, and go ahead and expand their life.

If you see collective as supreme over individuality, then I will refer you to Marxist teachings and depart quietly. Personally, I see the world you are picturing as "beautiful" as an abomination, as a society of self-imposed totalitarianism. No, thanks.

Once again, migration is the sole reason all of our modern nations exist. I'm not saying that migration/immigration is the cornerstone of the modern civilization, but without it modern civilization wouldn't exist. Also, I personally see a world with no borders as more solid and stable than a world with self-secluded communities caring only about themselves.

---

I see your reasoning, but I've seen it too many times to realize that it is not based on reality. Feel free to believe in all this, just know that the world you see as beautiful and perfect doesn't appear that way to some other people.

Prosperous societies were made so by people thinking pragmatically. They can be both natives or immigrants, it doesn't really matter. Patriotism, time and time again, has proven to not be pragmatic - hence why all developed nations nowadays move towards globalism and internationalism.

I didn’t forget the individual, my emphasis is on the collective since that’s the basis of the thread. Sorry I didn’t caveat my entire point with this little narrative so you’d feel as I touched all the bases, but it wasn’t really necessary.

I definitely don’t think people should be or are robots, that’s about as far away from what I think and see as you can get. My emphasis in my posts here has been on foundational, societal culture and the necessity of it to act as one of many backdrops and illuminary settings for people both individually and as a group. The individual is important but that is hand in hand with the society, with the culture and ethnicity they represent. It’s simultaneously standing for yourself and for something bigger than yourself.

You think there are limits to some ‘small community’ yet technology has largely removed that and you see in many people an extremely atavistic approach to their everyday lives except where as necessary to interact with the broader world using that technology. Moreover the society and peoples’ obligation to it is to both sustain it and exemplify it, both at home and wherever they happen to go.

I’m not interested in Marxist teachings and if you haven’t figured that shit out by now then you’re really not paying attention at all and everything I’ve said since I started posting to you has gone in one ear and out the other or I can again point to simple memory retention efforts on your part.

That you see the world I’m talking about as totalitarian means you haven’t been listening and can’t comprehend these words at all. That’s your fault as I’ve literally shit all over totalitarianism in countless threads over and over so grats on that.

Migration isn’t the reason nations exist man. People and culture are. Migration is a tool and once you grasp that literally elementary concept maybe you’ll start to get more of what I’m saying. I know you see a world with no borders as more stable, but that’s why you’re wrong in every single one of these threads you post in because you don’t understand the world, its’ people or their requirements. You should stick to factory style efforts which are your thing.

I’m really completely indifferent to what people who are as wholesale wrong as you think about what I think. You continually misidentify and misunderstand what I and others have written about this subject so really there’s no common ground for a discussion here. You’re not even effectlvely participating in the topic.

Patriotism is extremely pragmatic, what it isn’t is utilitarian or in words you can relate to intimately, relative.