how are enh shamans doing in raids

[JonBeMerkin]

How is my opinion invalid just because you have a different one? I am not seeing any glaring issues with our survivability. I am not advocating spamming HS over and over again, but a quick self heal for 20 MS can be the difference between life and death.

I consider everything in our kit part of our survivability. Need to get out of shit? Sprint, feral spirit or feral lunge will help you with that, thus taking less damage. Have you taken some damage, and are taking some more? Use Astral Shift for a free 30% heal and a 30% reduction on the damage coming in. Healers panicking and your health drops low? That's when you start healing yourself.

I have no idea what AS even have to do with this. If you can't do an instant Healing Surge, then you have exhausted all of your Maelstrom, and that should never happen unless you have everything under control (and in that case, you wont need to heal yourself). I will purposely never drop below 50 Maelstrom, so that I know that I can react to sudden damage and get myself back up in case I need it.



It's worth noting that at no point in that fight did I have to run away because I was focused by the charge. That means I only had to stop DPS when he charged a different target, but I never had to run away and not DPS at all - at any point in the fight. If I had been targeted, it's safe to assume that my damage would be brought in line with everybody else.

Never said your opinion is invalid just what you are saying is flat out wrong.You honestly have no idea what you are talking about...You are making it seem like Enhance has a survivability kit which is the furthest thing from the truth since someone said that cows can fly. A perfect example of a class with a survivability kit is Ret paladins.

Survivability isn't 30% movement speed first of off because not everything you can run from and not everything you can feral lunge to especially with the range being so short. The only form of true survivability enhance has is AS which isn't enough compared to other melee dps that have way more.Survivability on world of warcraft is largely considered by the pro players to be something that helps you MITIGATE damage, not avoid it. Feral lunge/wolf falls under the category of MOBILTIY.

You don't understand because you are still doing normal EN. You are a casual player, the damage you take is lower in your raids you don't need survivability the content is easy people are solo healing it. In your last heroic raid on all 7 bosses you only casted AS 5 times and healing surge 3 times...So where are you doing this insane survivability mechanics you speak of at? Go do some mythic raiding, go do some 10+ keystones were taking damage is an actual problem then come back and tell me that Enhance survivability isn't a problem. You ever do scorpions on a +11 and you don't have AS up so you have to substitute crash lightning in your filler for healing surges? You haven't seen that level of damage yet for it to become a problem. Period.

[plato13]

Yes enhancement shaman survivability is ass. Does it matter for raids? Not so much. Its more of an issue in high mythic+. I run mythic+ with a Ret Paly in my grp. Glad he can give me bop from time to time w/o i would die like every 3rd pack during skittish. Whenever the paly has to tank for a few seconds he just tanks it and doesnt care that much, while i get chunked to 10% with a single hit with no cheat death mechanic. There is alot more unavoidable grpdmg in mythic+ then in raids.

[ehxy]

Just that we are absolutely balanced ST-wise. If you really think that we are "overtuned", I'll refer to a lot of other classes that do better than us.
Our Damage is COMPLETELY proc based. Have fun with no procs during a fight and you'll see yourself in the lower middlefield.

Also, your Shaman got 2 BiS legendaries? Even with those BiS legendaries, it shouldn't be possible for him to be over 50 - 100k over anything else. Its just not. That sounds more like an L2P or LEGENDARY issue in your guild if anything.

Edit: also boss mechanics.

Pretty much. The only boss fight we excel at is where we never have to move and stop attacking we get great procs. That's maybe 2 fights in all of EN. Their guild needs to look at their performance in any case.

[SwayOfTheAbyss]

Yes enhancement shaman survivability is ass. Does it matter for raids? Not so much. Its more of an issue in high mythic+. I run mythic+ with a Ret Paly in my grp. Glad he can give me bop from time to time w/o i would die like every 3rd pack during skittish. Whenever the paly has to tank for a few seconds he just tanks it and doesnt care that much, while i get chunked to 10% with a single hit with no cheat death mechanic. There is alot more unavoidable grpdmg in mythic+ then in raids.

The biggest bummer is our selfheal costs maelstrom, however instant heals is a very nice advantage. The ghost wolf helps gets us outta crap, so does the windjump. Astral shift is also quite nice. You have to micromanage your own survival, but its quite good once you get the hang of it

[plato13]

The biggest bummer is our selfheal costs maelstrom, however instant heals is a very nice advantage. The ghost wolf helps gets us outta crap, so does the windjump. Astral shift is also quite nice. You have to micromanage your own survival, but its quite good once you get the hang of it

there is no counterhealing oneshots. and i would also say its more a problem that the selfheal takes too many gcds and not the maelstrom cost. you also dont have a windjump as enhancer wich shows how much can contribute to the topic.

[Ktperry]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=129179/fighter-chow

Problem solved.

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=129179/fighter-chow

Problem solved.

How will that help in combat ? :P

[Gunwolf]

Point 35/36/37.

Yes and I think Enhance need a bit more AoE and a bit less ST.

I'm entitled to my opinion.

I have to disagree. Enhance's niche in the past was exactly that, higher aoe and lower ST.... and I HATED that. I did not like our FN mechanic, esp the annoying setup relying on single target.... but it also meant that we didn't do well unless it was trash or a raid boss with adds. By having strong single target, we are always good on any fight.... same with PVP too. I wouldn't mind improvements to our aoe, maybe a burstier option or something.... but not at the tradeoff of our single target. Perhaps as a talent choice, like on the L75 tier Tempest is good single target, they could have a different talent choice that improves your aoe as a tradeoff if you want that option... L60 tier could prob have that choice as well if they get replace the LS talent for example with something more aoe oriented.

Never said your opinion is invalid just what you are saying is flat out wrong.You honestly have no idea what you are talking about...You are making it seem like Enhance has a survivability kit which is the furthest thing from the truth since someone said that cows can fly. A perfect example of a class with a survivability kit is Ret paladins.

Survivability isn't 30% movement speed first of off because not everything you can run from and not everything you can feral lunge to especially with the range being so short. The only form of true survivability enhance has is AS which isn't enough compared to other melee dps that have way more.Survivability on world of warcraft is largely considered by the pro players to be something that helps you MITIGATE damage, not avoid it. Feral lunge/wolf falls under the category of MOBILTIY.

You don't understand because you are still doing normal EN. You are a casual player, the damage you take is lower in your raids you don't need survivability the content is easy people are solo healing it. In your last heroic raid on all 7 bosses you only casted AS 5 times and healing surge 3 times...So where are you doing this insane survivability mechanics you speak of at? Go do some mythic raiding, go do some 10+ keystones were taking damage is an actual problem then come back and tell me that Enhance survivability isn't a problem. You ever do scorpions on a +11 and you don't have AS up so you have to substitute crash lightning in your filler for healing surges? You haven't seen that level of damage yet for it to become a problem. Period.

Enhance survivability is a little low, but that has been a problem for Shaman for a while. You mention Pally, which is the exact counter of our class.... we are "offensive support" while pally is "defensive support" so naturally they have more defensives. We have self heals, ranged interrupt, offensive dispel, aoe stun, hex, ect. Lots of tools to reduce damage and help make a dungeon run easier. We also have better mobility then pally with a charge, sprint, and GW..... I am sure Pally's are jealous of our mobility like we are of their defensives.

AS is good for what it is, tho I do wish we had our old 1min cd SR back. The instant self heals are clutch and can be great for offheals in a group even if they are weak. I wouldn't mind some more passive defenses tho.... something like this:

Shaman armor: You have 10% more HP and take 10% reduced damage from all sources.

That is just an example, but Shaman have always had such low HP compared to other classes (since vanilla honestly) and I think its kinda ridiculous how much more damage we take as a mail class compared to some of the leather ones, and the leather classes usually have more cd's to deal with stuff too.

As far as active defenses go... would love another CD but I doubt they would give us one since we have so many other tools. Perhaps lower cd on AS, unlikely tho, or add some defensives to an existing ability like Spirit Walk.... or maybe a passive where if we have <50% HP our HS heals for double or something.

[JonBeMerkin]

I have to disagree. Enhance's niche in the past was exactly that, higher aoe and lower ST.... and I HATED that. I did not like our FN mechanic, esp the annoying setup relying on single target.... but it also meant that we didn't do well unless it was trash or a raid boss with adds. By having strong single target, we are always good on any fight.... same with PVP too. I wouldn't mind improvements to our aoe, maybe a burstier option or something.... but not at the tradeoff of our single target. Perhaps as a talent choice, like on the L75 tier Tempest is good single target, they could have a different talent choice that improves your aoe as a tradeoff if you want that option... L60 tier could prob have that choice as well if they get replace the LS talent for example with something more aoe oriented.




Enhance survivability is a little low, but that has been a problem for Shaman for a while. You mention Pally, which is the exact counter of our class.... we are "offensive support" while pally is "defensive support" so naturally they have more defensives. We have self heals, ranged interrupt, offensive dispel, aoe stun, hex, ect. Lots of tools to reduce damage and help make a dungeon run easier. We also have better mobility then pally with a charge, sprint, and GW..... I am sure Pally's are jealous of our mobility like we are of their defensives.

AS is good for what it is, tho I do wish we had our old 1min cd SR back. The instant self heals are clutch and can be great for offheals in a group even if they are weak. I wouldn't mind some more passive defenses tho.... something like this:

Shaman armor: You have 10% more HP and take 10% reduced damage from all sources.

That is just an example, but Shaman have always had such low HP compared to other classes (since vanilla honestly) and I think its kinda ridiculous how much more damage we take as a mail class compared to some of the leather ones, and the leather classes usually have more cd's to deal with stuff too.

As far as active defenses go... would love another CD but I doubt they would give us one since we have so many other tools. Perhaps lower cd on AS, unlikely tho, or add some defensives to an existing ability like Spirit Walk.... or maybe a passive where if we have <50% HP our HS heals for double or something.

If you read what I said i was replying to the person that was making it seem like Enhance was a survivability class which is why i told him Paladins are an example of a survivability class.

I like the idea of the passive that gives us more HP and reduced damage because Earth is supposed to be part of our Element theme that is supposed to be one of the tank elements. So a passive that would reflect that would fit nice.

I also think on top of that passive we should have a earth version of flametongue that allows us to take less damage but it doesn't stack with flametongue. So basically you would substitute a little DPS for damage reduction.

[Ghrog]

thining about rolling a shaman. Heard their is a survivability issue. Any truth to that

In raids? No it's not an issue. Don't stand in shit and you'll be fine. Occasionally pop Astral Shift on high damage situations to make your healers like you more and that's really about it. We have some nice tools to help out (Instant cast self heals for Maelstrom and Mana, AS, Ghost Wolf to get out of fire quicker, Feral Lung to get back into melee range quick and out of more fire quickly)

Several other classes have more damage mitigation tools, true, and when questing survivability can be a bit touch and go, but in raids where you have tanks and healers and the ability to get out of fire yourself quickly... not a problem.

[Arachnofiend]

How will that help in combat ? :P

You have to be a troll shaman, obviously. All other races are scrub tier because they don't get fighter chow benefits.

[Deleted]

Never said your opinion is invalid just what you are saying is flat out wrong.You honestly have no idea what you are talking about...You are making it seem like Enhance has a survivability kit which is the furthest thing from the truth since someone said that cows can fly. A perfect example of a class with a survivability kit is Ret paladins.

Survivability isn't 30% movement speed first of off because not everything you can run from and not everything you can feral lunge to especially with the range being so short. The only form of true survivability enhance has is AS which isn't enough compared to other melee dps that have way more.Survivability on world of warcraft is largely considered by the pro players to be something that helps you MITIGATE damage, not avoid it. Feral lunge/wolf falls under the category of MOBILTIY.

You don't understand because you are still doing normal EN. You are a casual player, the damage you take is lower in your raids you don't need survivability the content is easy people are solo healing it. In your last heroic raid on all 7 bosses you only casted AS 5 times and healing surge 3 times...So where are you doing this insane survivability mechanics you speak of at? Go do some mythic raiding, go do some 10+ keystones were taking damage is an actual problem then come back and tell me that Enhance survivability isn't a problem. You ever do scorpions on a +11 and you don't have AS up so you have to substitute crash lightning in your filler for healing surges? You haven't seen that level of damage yet for it to become a problem. Period.

You are right. I don't raid Mythic. Heck, I've only ever cleared HC EN once - that was the log you looked at. And I have no plans on stepping into Mythic anytime soon.

But why are you just assuming that OP is re-rolling a shaman to do mythic raids? Not *everyone* does mythics, or are even interested in putting in the effort. I daresay that there is a larger percentage of the player base that does normal/heroic, compared to how many do mythic.

Unless you know for sure that this guy is only interested in mythic-level raids, then there is no point in telling him that our survivability is crap, because it will most likely be perfectly adequate for the content he is playing.

[JonBeMerkin]

You are right. I don't raid Mythic. Heck, I've only ever cleared HC EN once - that was the log you looked at. And I have no plans on stepping into Mythic anytime soon.

But why are you just assuming that OP is re-rolling a shaman to do mythic raids? Not *everyone* does mythics, or are even interested in putting in the effort. I daresay that there is a larger percentage of the player base that does normal/heroic, compared to how many do mythic.

Unless you know for sure that this guy is only interested in mythic-level raids, then there is no point in telling him that our survivability is crap, because it will most likely be perfectly adequate for the content he is playing.

I could say the same thing back to you...How do you know he wants to settle for just normal/heroic and low level keys? Clearly you weren't just talking about easier content you were talking about the spec as a whole because if you were just talking about easy content you woulda said that from the start. You woulda said well i'm a casual player and I clear normal EN and i have no issues with survivability but you didn't do that your direct quote was "Survivability isn't an issue, no more than it is for other melee classes" which btw is 100% completely false and an ignorant statement to make.

You were wrong, thats ok. Move on. Just in the future let people know you are a casual player clearing EN so they can get a better idea of your POV for what you are talking about.

[Deleted]

Why top guilds bring the shaman if they dont add anything special beside great dmg? Even better dmg! And this "other specs are better at everything"... It's single target dmg is overpowered. Dont look at heroic logs please where everyone will pad, even mythic ones are broken. Anyway, there are some overpowered specs that needs to be "slightly" nerfed. Doesnt matter if you agree or not, spec is great at this moment.

[Arachnofiend]

Why top guilds bring the shaman if they dont add anything special beside great dmg? Even better dmg! And this "other specs are better at everything"... It's single target dmg is overpowered. Dont look at heroic logs please where everyone will pad, even mythic ones are broken. Anyway, there are some overpowered specs that needs to be "slightly" nerfed. Doesnt matter if you agree or not, spec is great at this moment.

It's because of the target switching. Absolutely no one in the game is better at rapidly picking up a new add than Enhancement, we have practically zero build up time.

[Deleted]

Enh st is not overpowered. People who say that are plebs. simple as that.

[Deleted]

I could say the same thing back to you...How do you know he wants to settle for just normal/heroic and low level keys? Clearly you weren't just talking about easier content you were talking about the spec as a whole because if you were just talking about easy content you woulda said that from the start. You woulda said well i'm a casual player and I clear normal EN and i have no issues with survivability but you didn't do that your direct quote was "Survivability isn't an issue, no more than it is for other melee classes" which btw is 100% completely false and an ignorant statement to make.

You were wrong, thats ok. Move on. Just in the future let people know you are a casual player clearing EN so they can get a better idea of your POV for what you are talking about.

And what's your POV? Face down on the floor in all mythic fights, because of our poor survivability?

You spend a lot of time talking smack to other people on this board, but I would love to see if you actually have the experience you claim to have

[Deleted]

Enh st is not overpowered. People who say that are plebs. simple as that.

Yeah. With the right legendaries, we are midpack on single target. Ive beaten the dh on single target easily. He did 430k last week on mythic ursoc, i did 490k. This week i did 483k -and he did 490k with bis legendaries. If i had bis ring id be up to him.At best. But hes sooooo much stronger on AOE...

And DHs arent even strong. Arms and rogues are the best on single target. Some classes like DH just need the right legendaries to beat us even on ST.

[Dadpool]

Your outlaw rogue sucks

If only your opinion was worth the time it took to read and reply.

[Kidies]

Is DH in a good place in terms of dps?
My guild is 7/7 M and the funny thing is that there's no DH in the raid lol