Something needs to be done about M+ and its negative impact on the game

[Brewhan]

The solution which might please both hardcore and casual players: remove the freakin' warforged/titanforged/socket RNG nonsense from mythic+ loot.
The higher keystone dungeon you do, the better gear you obtain. But at the same time you can't have a 999 titanforged socket leech avoidance speed from a +3 dungeon.
Seems fair to me.

this also would help titanforge/warforge/socket RNG has made content relevant even something like LFR could drop you an 895 titanforged bis ring. Unlikely yes but possibly to happen. Once you have gotten 2 legendaries then you dont have to run lower end content for legendary chance but I've still gotten 880 ring 880 trinket that are mythic3/4 titanforged...

[Crushima]

I unsubbed because of Mythic+. In my eyes, it made Legion 'diablo4'. The ability to grind 24/7 hoping for Legendaries and other upgrades from these silly 5 man dungeons.

I far preferred it when there were just CM's and leaderboards for those who took them seriously.

Decided to unsub, doubt I'll return unless things go back to normal, even then I'm having a blast playing other games atm

[Fappy]

I just don't like how you are pretty much forced to run them to stay competitive in a raid environment. Although this is an issue they are trying to address in the next patch, as a Fire Mage I require M+ in order to get crit gear. Nearly half of my slots are filled with M+ gear supplementing my raid gear because of this fact.

I am all for M+ offering viable and desirable rewards, but if the system doesn't change I really think they need to look at the gear yield of raiding. I shouldn't have to spam 5-man content in order to raid at higher levels. In my mind, Karazhan is a much better example of how to gear via 5 man. Sure, the gear isn't great for mythic raiders, but for everyone else it's well worth it.

Maybe they can fix this situation with Nighthold. OP trinkets and set bonuses may be the only solution to this issue unless they nerf the number of drops M+ spammers can get.

[ComputerNerd]

This is a personal problem, not a game problem. I also do not have the time to spam M+ and yet I do not feel compelled to whatsoever. I would argue that caps are actually more unhealthy for the game, because then suddenly I WOULD feel compelled to hit the cap each week. At the mo I just pick it up when I get time and have fun. That's better.

Also, what exactly is wrong with rewarding people who spend more time on something? If they put more in they should get more out of it.

A cap indeed does become some expectation that you must meet, because it is something people can define.
We can't say what is or isn't a good amount of AP to get per day now, but were there an upper limit on it then players absolutely would use that upper limit measure players, regardless of the actual requirements.
That has been made clear in organised content where there are player-dictated requirements above what is actually required.

[Deleted]

It's not selfish, it's in line with most other PvE end-game options. Raiding has a weekly lockout, heroic dungeons have a daily lockout, why can't M+ have the same design philosophy?

- - - Updated - - -



PvP is not PvE.

Because it is not designed that way. The very notion if failing your keystones and requiring another run to make it work again should be a hint enough.
It IS selfish. You want to stay near the curve yet want to do it with a lot less time played.
You basically want the people with a ton of time for whatever reason to not run ahead of you. How is this not selfish?
Mythic+ is basically the challenge mode idea turned into a whole system and correct me if i am wrong, there was never a cap in there either so it doesn't go against design philosophies.

You think it has negative impact now?
You know what happen if you put a cap on it? People that can only play at certain times like during the weekend will suddenly have a lot harder time finding others to even get their cap.
Your suggestion would do a lot more harm then you would consider.

Also, while his first example is pvp, his second clearly is not.
I remember grinding for hours on those timbermaw in felwood so i got enough rep to get through the tunnel to winterspring. Anyone remember AQ rep vendors.
What about farming resistance gear for a 40 man raid?
If anything, this is more like TBC where you did dungeon after dungeon just to get revered just to get in the heroic mode.

[Rogalicus]

If anything, this is more like TBC where you did dungeon after dungeon just to get revered just to get in the heroic mode.

Except that grind ended when you received the key, rep grind ended when you hit exalted. Mythic+ grind will end in 8.0.

[Simplex]

Yeah, cap it. I'm sure there won't be complaints like "I can't find a group for my +<11 keystone". What is your reason to stay "ahead of the curve" anyways. Don't you also want to restrict the progress hours (Algalon style) so you can compete for the world first kills?

[weirdman]

Ya sorry bud, normally I wouldn't agree with the flaming however I have to take exception in this case.

Your "complaint" is a prime example of what is wrong with large portions of our society at the moment. The sheer entitlement present in your "complaint" is staggering.

Yes, if someone does something more than you, they will get more than you.

Following your logic if I work 14 hours a day and you only work 2 in your mind it's fair that you should also get 14 hours of pay, or stop me from putting in more work to earn more, that's just silly.

If you only have .5-1 hours a day as you state limiting mythic+ to 14 per week would still FAR exceed your ability to keep up and netting the same end result.

This is a basic law of physics:

Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

This applies here, I took an action of participating more and the reaction was I was rewarded more for it.


I feel like your anger is stemming from something else and you are lashing out like a spoiled bratty child without fully thinking through your argument. It also seems you do not wish to tell us what the REAL problem is because even you think it is foolish so you trumped up this cockamamey bullshit story to try and justify something that even you think is not really a problem.

Sorry bro, gl.

Take your toys and go play in some other sandbox.


P.S. I probably haven't done more than 5 M+'s this whole xpac and I have 4 110's at this point, so this is not coming from someone defending their right to farm M+'s.

[Jarg]

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

i would be bored. there it is

[Archibalde]

I suggested a 14 M+ dung limit per week. I know people that are running 14 a day and it's insane, there is no way that is good game design.

And why is it a bad design? If these people want to do it and they have the free time, it's their choice. The advantage they get is not nearly as significant as you seem to think. They get a better chance at a legendary, sure. It's still just a chance. Some people will run 200 M+ in a week and not get anything, and someone will log in once a week and get one off a boss in LFR. Lowering the amount of content you can do doesn't change the fact that some people will be extremely lucky and others won't.

Same thing with other gear. Chaining Mythic+ for titanforged gear doesn't mean you'll ever get any titanforged gear. It also doesn't mean you'll ever get the item you were actually after. It's a chance to get an item out of the entire dungeon's loot table. You can't exactly target specific things. For all the good pieces you needed, you're likely to have about 20 you just sell/disenchant. Hell you could just queue up for random heroics and still get as much of a chance for titanforged gear, the only difference with Mythic+ is that items start at a higher item level.

Chaining Mythic + is good for Artifact Power, sure, but so is PvP. After you hit that first prestige, you get a monstrous amount of AP every other level, on top of all the AP you get from battlegrounds (whether you win or lose). In fact you get a lot of gear doing that as well, even when you lose there's a chance to get something. Do you also want to restrict the amount of battlegrounds and arena matches people can do in a day?

You can pretend like you're not trying to decide how much people should play, but that's exactly what it comes down to. Everyone gets to decide how much they want to play. The game offers different options and that's a good thing. If you feel like you absolutely have to do the best option, that's entirely on you. It's not a problem with the game. There are plenty of ways to stay competitive without playing 24/7.

[Paulosio]

Yeah there's really no point raiding for gear anymore. M+ is a much better use of your time. Either cap the iLvl at 865 or make sure that you get way less gear.

Mythic raid bosses give guaranteed minimum item level that's higher than high mythic plus minimum item level. You might end up with some items of higher level (or even higher) if you did a mountain of mythic dungeons but you'd probably have to spend more time to do it than the couple of hours it takes the better guild to clear emerald nightmare at this point. When tier sets come into the game soon raids will have another advantage over mythic plus.

[Banquetto]

I don't do Mythic+ nor "compete" with people who do, so I have no personal stake in this.

But I will say that it's rather odd that there is no limit to the number you can do?

We've always had limits like daily lockouts on heroics, weekly lockouts on raids..

Why is Mythic+ so special?

I'm not saying that people who play more shouldn't get more gear than people who play less.. but allowing that "more gear" to scale linearly with time played with no cap or limit isn't something that has been part of WoW's design in the past.

- - - Updated - - -

Following your logic if I work 14 hours a day and you only work 2 in your mind it's fair that you should also get 14 hours of pay, or stop me from putting in more work to earn more, that's just silly.

So I assume you would be in favour of removing raid loot lockouts, so people could clear Mythic EN / TOV several times a day and get dozens of loot rolls from each boss each week, then?

[dcc626]

Mythic raid bosses give guaranteed minimum item level that's higher than high mythic plus minimum item level. You might end up with some items of higher level (or even higher) if you did a mountain of mythic dungeons but you'd probably have to spend more time to do it than the couple of hours it takes the better guild to clear emerald nightmare at this point. When tier sets come into the game soon raids will have another advantage over mythic plus.

will be a moot point once nighthold comes out with tier and much higher ilvl than what you can get in m+ i imagine.

[sponge5307]

yea if there is a limit good luck to the ppl looking for carry groups or wants to do the quest for a keystone but can't coz no one is joining.

[Lplatehealer]

I have never run a M+ and have Ahead of the Curve achieve. And I only play about an hour a day and 2 on my one night a week raid guild. Not sure what the issue is

[MyndZero]

I agree, you shouldn't have to do M+ on TOP of raiding to stay ahead of the curve, and many guilds seem to be having this requirement in some form (be it defined, or just expected) and that's just wrong. I love raiding, and I don't mind M+ either, but doing both is a massive chore and time killer.

[Hyperborean]

but we are locked by keystones.

if you only go by group finder sure youll see people spamming, but my core group of find we run out of undepleted keys usually by saturday. now we can 2 chest a +9 but havent been able to do a 10 in time yet, though we are getting closer (less than 45 of VotW last run), but we still havent "progressed". i do 40 of these a week and i havent got an upgrade in a fair while, so its really ju st been to run with my mates and get AP. The AP if actually really innefficient though, compared to just WQ and daily dungeon. for time and skill required 2-mans are about the same i reckon, BGs maybe a little behind.

the point is that no matter what content you're playing youll probably be getting it at the same pace, and you have exactly the same ch ances of titanforging as I do.

as for Leggo farming: it's RNG. be an active player and get better odds, sure. but there are lots of ways to be an active player, and M+ honestly doesn't seem to make a huge impact. 2 of my dungeon mates still have 1 leggo each, despite the amount of dungeons we run. It's just RNG.

finally, the most important drop you can get is end of eeek cache, which is an example of gating.

i can't take a casual's +2 key and push it to +9 or +10 without a team of monsters, cause we really need all 5 people geard to progress. farming 7s is slower for AP than other content imo, So you just need to step up /played if you wanna be ahead of the curve on traits.

or don't be ahead on traits and youll still get all 35 in a few months. if you dedicate yourself now youll just get to do the content earlier. youre not going to get blocked from artifact traiting because you /played isnt 50 days.

[RobertMugabe]

Because I shouldn't be limited to do things a like because you don't want to or don't have time to do them yourself.

What about raids and normal mythics?

[RobertMugabe]

Yeah, cap it. I'm sure there won't be complaints like "I can't find a group for my +<11 keystone". What is your reason to stay "ahead of the curve" anyways. Don't you also want to restrict the progress hours (Algalon style) so you can compete for the world first kills?

I am sure people will find enough players with lower keys, they just won't get carried anymore, which is a good thing. Personally, I don't really care about people getting carried hard from randoms, but I just think that this is bad game design.

[SirCowdog]

**Edited - see bottom**

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

EDIT:

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

How about this: Who gives an airborne intercourse what other people are doing, or how fast they're progressing? Why not just play at your own pace and do your own thing. Rewards don't go away because some other player did it first. Respawns are a thing that happens...often.

This entire "problem" you're describing is not with the game, but with you and your belief that WoW is about competition. It's not. Even the world first super hardcore progression guilds are a construct of THE COMMUNITY, not the game! Do raids stop dropping loot because someone else did it before you? No. Do mythics stop dropping loot because someone is doing +10 while you're doing +5? No.