Something needs to be done about M+ and its negative impact on the game

[Vargur]

So people who put effort into the game are ahead of people who don't play much?? wtf that is so unfair!

Effort =/= no life

[SirCowdog]

I don't do Mythic+ nor "compete" with people who do, so I have no personal stake in this.

But I will say that it's rather odd that there is no limit to the number you can do?

We've always had limits like daily lockouts on heroics, weekly lockouts on raids..

Why is Mythic+ so special?

I'm not saying that people who play more shouldn't get more gear than people who play less.. but allowing that "more gear" to scale linearly with time played with no cap or limit isn't something that has been part of WoW's design in the past.

- - - Updated - - -



So I assume you would be in favour of removing raid loot lockouts, so people could clear Mythic EN / TOV several times a day and get dozens of loot rolls from each boss each week, then?

Removing raid lockouts would be worse than Mythic+, because mythic+ is at least limited by keystones. Raids currently are not. If they applied the M+ mechanics to raids, now you'd have a legitimate point. And that...man...that would be epic, IMHO. Blizzard should do it. Mythic+ raids.

[Inci]

This is a personal problem, not a game problem. I also do not have the time to spam M+ and yet I do not feel compelled to whatsoever. I would argue that caps are actually more unhealthy for the game, because then suddenly I WOULD feel compelled to hit the cap each week. At the mo I just pick it up when I get time and have fun. That's better.

Also, what exactly is wrong with rewarding people who spend more time on something? If they put more in they should get more out of it.

This guy says it all.

[MoanaLisa]

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.[/B]

No. Your problems are not necessarily a problem for the game. People are free to run M+ as little or as much as they like. That's perfectly acceptable.

[Hyperborean]

Honestly if you want AP that bad get to 850 and join a heroic spam group. It's useless for gear, but you get an Adventurer's Glory each, some Jewels of Victory, and lots of enchanting mats and Blood of Sargerus. Fast Heroic spam is without a doubt in my mind the fastest way to accumulate currencies across multiple bands, and you can even roll titan-forges or Leggos if youre a sack. You want AP, inf blood for flasks and food, and ench mats to top it off? do 6 random heroics with a dope 5-man every hour, and just dodge violet hold.

Is it fun? well so long as you enjoy the company, definitely. Are you ever gonna be excited by the game like when you *just* nab an extra chest on M+ or land sik jukes for a 2v1 in PvP? no. it wont be fun AT ALL, unless you relaly like the peeps in your team. But if you wanna get ahead, you know the drill.

[Jaigar]

Capping would screw over guilds. I think its safe to say that tanks are in short supply for M+, and having your tanks locked out of getting loot because they have to help multiple groups run is bad design.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Yeah I also don't really like the idea that you can simply spam mythic+ like forever. It is so efficient to farm gear (and legendaries) in mythic+ that raids are almost useless (the gear is even better than mythic). Boosting is also a big deal.

The cap is when you burn yourself out by doing something stupid like 70 mythic+ runs a week.

[SirCowdog]

So many people just stating "X is bad game design" like it actually means anything, especially coming from them. How do you know "good" game design?

Long time experience with MMOs, and gaming in general. Some of us even have programming or engineering backgrounds. A few of us have also have been gaming longer than some people on these forums have even been alive.

And, as always, it doesn't take a master chef to know when the toast is burnt.

[MoanaLisa]

Long time experience with MMOs, and gaming in general. Some of us even have programming or engineering backgrounds. A few of us have also have been gaming longer than some people on these forums have even been alive.

And, as always, it doesn't take a master chef to know when the toast is burnt.

"I don't like it" = bad game design. "I like it a lot" = good game design.

Neither is true. It's all subjective and personal.

Personally the very last person I'd ask to design an entertainment product/game would be an engineer for fuck's sake. Build a game after it's designed? Absolutely.

[Deleted]

OP is like

"B-Blizzard doesn't tell me how often I'm supposed to run these. I-I just have to run these endlessly if there's no limit, don't it? Someone help me and stop me - ahhhh
W-why are people getting "ahead" of me when they invest more effort/gametime. Outrageous, this has to stop!"

[Advent]

haha, this is great! "your premise is stupid" brilliant response man! Glad you have a brain.

THIS is how I know you're not interested in discussion. Out of all the more constructive posts, you decide to reply to the one that fits your flimsy argument that no one is refuting your point. This whole notion of capping people because you don't want to put in the time they do is ridiculous and selfish. You haven't answered the counter-question: Why should MY time be hampered because you're behind? That's like telling professional running athletes to slow down because it makes the casual joggers feel left out.

[Alaira]

OP, nothing about M+ is broken. People who are willing and able to devote time to the system can progress on an alternate path from raiding.
You can't expect to play for a handful of hours per week and keep up with people who play that many hours in a day.
Blizzard has replaced Challenge Modes with M+. The objective is to push to the highest level. You can't do that without upgrades.
There's no good reason to time-gate a system for everyone just because you can't keep up.

I don't do M+. I raid instead. Do I feel hindered? Nope. 7/7 H EN and 2/3 H ToV. I'd be doing mythic raids if my roster was large enough.

[Super Kami Dende]

So your complaint is "Limit other people because i don't want to/can't put the same time in".

Yeah nah, Would rather you just quit the game since we don't need people that want to limit content due to selfish reasons.

[Sithalos]

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

Uhh, okay.

that can only play .5-1 hour a day

Stopped reading there. M+ is fine.

[Extremities]

Yeah there's really no point raiding for gear anymore. M+ is a much better use of your time. Either cap the iLvl at 865 or make sure that you get way less gear.

No, they clearly stated that Mythic+ was for those who didn't want to or have the time to raid yet still acquire gear that was somewhat on par. Raid gear will still be better but M+'s have a chance at being somewhat on par. It's a way for non-raiders to stay relevant.

As for the OP, am I reading this correctly? You're upset that people who invest more time into the game are rewarded for it and those who don't invest the same time are treated unfairly? That's like crying that someone invested 4 yrs of their life to get a degree, who busted their asses to get it should be on par with someone who just spent 1 year at a junior college. Logic is tough.

[Hyperborean]

THIS is how I know you're not interested in discussion. Out of all the more constructive posts, you decide to reply to the one that fits your flimsy argument that no one is refuting your point. This whole notion of capping people because you don't want to put in the time they do is ridiculous and selfish. You haven't answered the counter-question: Why should MY time be hampered because you're behind? That's like telling professional running athletes to slow down because it makes the casual joggers feel left out.

Yeah I agree. There have been multiple posters who DO run multiple M+ explaining that the EV isn't actually that high, and thay you're view from the bottom has removed all depth perception. Since the argument that M+ should be capped is apparently based on this notion of "carry spammer's get ahead than all other content" is demonstrably incorrect (Strong PvP players get ahead the most efficiently, and by definition World First guilds get ahead the fastest = earliest in the xpac).

So are you going to reformulate or clarify you argument? Or change your argument in anyway to match the evidence being proposed by those players you use as examples to make your point?

It's okay to change your opinion about something when demonstrated new information. In fact, it's preferable that you do re-evaluate your stance to incorporate new information. It's called learning.

So do you simply not like M+ for personal reasons? Cause that's okay if you do, it just doesn't merit you interfering with the people that do like it. Are you just crap at your rotation and get flamed by people in M+ when you go? Cause there's solutions for that too: do lower levels more suitable to your skill and gear. Also, there's no way that your experience with flamers is going to change by reducing the number of dungeons they can run; if anything by removing the hard-core M+ runers earlier in the week your ability to put together a relevant team will be seriously hampered, and you will literally never get to progress as the difficulty stratas separate the player-base in an incredibly efficient manner. Literally the only expected outcome from limiting M+ will be the complaint "I can't run M+ ever because I don't have Keystone conqueror". This is exactly the complaint that casuals have about raids. Now, I'm actually all for raids getting unlocked runs, but the effect on the world-first meta would definitely be detrimental, so it might only be possible to unlock raids 2 or more tiers below, and only in this xpac (or gold will seriously devalue as people run Cata over and over.; FUN!). So yeah, if when Nighthold is unlocked EM-Normal and Heroic gets unlocked, I'd love it. Get my x-mog, get my trinks, it'd be great.

But the claim that M+ is currently "Badly designed" that resides on the way it separates the player base by AP is only partially correct: there are lots of other ways to get AP just as fast.

The claim that limiting M+ runs would improve the experience is wrong, as it would make the Keystone system work against itself; Players that want to progress higher would have to 3-chest everything to level up their keys before they hit the lockout. That is literally the most straight forward example of bad design you can come up with: to make your system literally work against itself.

Finally imagine that system in an MMORPG where players are incentivised to progress... I guarantee you you will never get into a relevant keystone with a player better than you ever again. Even when you make a group, if you're not +12 material, nobody worth their salt will join. They only have 15 attempts, and 10 of those are going to go into leveling relevant keystones, so why would they waste any on a filthy casual like OP?

Your suggestion would literally destroy the system you're trying to "improve", all because you're angry you have responsibilities and can't sit around playing video games all day. If it's that important to you maybe you should let some of that responsibility go, and if you can't maybe you should look for some help. Hire a baby-sitter, or a deputy manager. Get a social worker to help with your disabled kid so you can play a video game once a month. work it out.

[Heladys]

There is no reason to protect addicts against themselves.

[SandmanActual]

I can only work 40 hours a week according to my job, but independent contractors can work as much overtime as they want.

I think the government should enforce a 40 hour a week cap on independent contractors as well. I don't like that they can make more money than me due to personal life choices.

[Osinin]

Wow this blew up fast.

I can't do countless M+ a week either. Some guildies can and yep, they have better gear then me. Good on them, they did more and deserve more. I personally don't see a problem here.

But I am curious, OP says they are behind, behind for what? Behind for tackling what content? What can't they do that they could do if everyone was limited in how many M+ they could run a week?

[Regalbeast]

THIS is how I know you're not interested in discussion. Out of all the more constructive posts, you decide to reply to the one that fits your flimsy argument that no one is refuting your point. This whole notion of capping people because you don't want to put in the time they do is ridiculous and selfish. You haven't answered the counter-question: Why should MY time be hampered because you're behind? That's like telling professional running athletes to slow down because it makes the casual joggers feel left out.

I've replied to a lot of posts, but I had to call this person out for only calling me stupid and offering no response. I can see that you didn't read through the thread or just wanted to cherry pick my posts to make you feel better.