Most Americans Don't Want Undocumented Immigrants to Leave

[Vash The Stampede]

Instead of wasting money and effort in deportation, why not just grant them citizenship? BOOM! They pay taxes and no longer become an economic drain. The main difference between an illegal and legal citizen is the paperwork. Being a South Florida resident, I have witnessed many hispanic immigrants that prove how inefficient out citizenship process is.

#1 Many would rather not become citizens. There are a lot of benefits to not being a citizen.
#2 We're about to legalize a lot of unskilled workers. Do we really want to do that? Unskilled workers who would have to get paid minimum wage, who rarely are able to speak English. A lot of them would just end up using our social programs.
#3 Doesn't this just open our borders for anyone to come in? Most countries are extremely selective of who they bring in. Usually only someone who can contribute can come in.

[NineSpine]

No, you are trying to put words into my mouth. I'm simply stating what I see to be the most possible freedom, something I support. I never said you had to be a part of it, merely pointed out that you shouldn't force others to be a part of your system.

Capitalism is not synonymous with freedom. Capitalism is a form of economy created by and regulated by governments. It is as artificial as socialism, just with different sets of rules. The minute you tell me that I need to respect your set of property rights, you have forced me to live under your system, under threat of violence.

[Machismo]

Capitalism is not synonymous with freedom. Capitalism is a form of economy created by and regulated by governments. It is as artificial as socialism, just with different sets of rules. The minute you tell me that I need to respect your set of property rights, you have forced me to live under your system, under threat of violence.

Free markets are synonymous with freedom, and it's the purest form of capitalism.

You keep intimating that I'm saying you need to do anything... show me where I'm trying to force anything upon you. I believe the only actions that should be restricted are those that cause actual harm. Anything pat that is a net reduction in freedom, and inherently unnecessary.

[Adolecent]

Despite Donald T.'s campaign promise to crack down on illegal immigration, a majority of Americans would like to see undocumented immigrants stay in the country and get a chance to become citizens, according to a new poll from Quinnipiac University.

And Clinton got more votes in the election. There is still hope for the USA.

[NineSpine]

#1 Many would rather not become citizens. There are a lot of benefits to not being a citizen.

Not really.

#2 We're about to legalize a lot of unskilled workers. Do we really want to do that? Unskilled workers who would have to get paid minimum wage, who rarely are able to speak English. A lot of them would just end up using our social programs.

Using social programs does not make someone a net negative effect on the economy. All people generate economic activity. Reducing their impact to taxes or social programs is silly and ignorant.

#3 Doesn't this just open our borders for anyone to come in? Most countries are extremely selective of who they bring in. Usually only someone who can contribute can come in.

Which is a good reason to streamline the immigration system so that we can more easily get everyone on the books and filter people in or out. As long as the system is lengthy, expensive, and complicated beyond reason, there is a lot of incentive to come here illegally,

[Flatspriest]

Anyone with a brain in their heads should know that statistics are bent to make them say whatever the person doing the polling wants them to say. MSN/NBC have shown they are anti-conservative and always have polls to back up what they say. It is just really sad when those polls are proven wrong time and again.

As for polling size, 1000 people out of 300M is not a good size to get an accurate poll. You need at least .01% which would be 3000 minimum to get even close to an accurate read, and then it should be random people from all over the country, not just from the west or east coasts where a majority of the polls are done.

[NineSpine]

Free markets are synonymous with freedom, and it's the purest form of capitalism.

It's a fantasy. You can't have capitalism without government.

You keep intimating that I'm saying you need to do anything... show me where I'm trying to force anything upon you. I believe the only actions that should be restricted are those that cause actual harm. Anything pat that is a net reduction in freedom, and inherently unnecessary.

Great, so you don't believe that we need to define and protect any property rights, so when I come and take things you believe are yours, you won't use violence to stop me?

[IntellectuallyChallenged]

If they leave, who's going to wash my car and mow my yard? Who's going to prep the food at my favorite restaurants so I can continue to sustain my life without putting any work into it? Who is going to construct our homes and buildings we run our businesses out of? Who will do the things that we Americans think we are too good to do but actually aren't?

WHO, I ASK YOU, who?

[Machismo]

It's a fantasy. You can't have capitalism without government.



Great, so you don't believe that we need to define and protect any property rights, so when I come and take things you believe are yours, you won't use violence to stop me?

Yes, you can have capitalism without government. You simply cannot manipulate capitalism (and have corporatism) without it.

I don't think one needs government to protect property. That doesn't mean I personally won't use violence against you. If you choose to harm me or my family, I will use violence. If you think you can take what is mine, I welcome you to try.

[BannedForViews]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/m...l-says-n688056



Great to see. Let's hope we can create a path to citizenship sooner than later.

Lets not and say we did.

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If they leave, who's going to wash my car and mow my yard? Who's going to prep the food at my favorite restaurants so I can continue to sustain my life without putting any work into it? Who is going to construct our homes and buildings we run our businesses out of? Who will do the things that we Americans think we are too good to do but actually aren't?

WHO, I ASK YOU, who?

You realize illegals aren't doing all those things right? Immigrants maybe, but not illegals.

[NineSpine]

Anyone with a brain in their heads should know that statistics are bent to make them say whatever the person doing the polling wants them to say. MSN/NBC have shown they are anti-conservative and always have polls to back up what they say. It is just really sad when those polls are proven wrong time and again.

As for polling size, 1000 people out of 300M is not a good size to get an accurate poll. You need at least .01% which would be 3000 minimum to get even close to an accurate read, and then it should be random people from all over the country, not just from the west or east coasts where a majority of the polls are done.

That's not how statistics works. 1000 people, provided that it is a sufficiently randomized sample, is absolutely acceptable for a total population of 300M. That's not an opinion. That's math. Statistics has no such rule as .01% of the population. Furthermore, if you think most major polling organizations don't realize that the country needs to be polled all over, you are committing the classic error of assuming that everyone else is a complete fucking idiot, without actually verifying it. It's standard practice to randomize a national poll throughout the country.

[Machismo]

Lets not and say we did.

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You realize illegals aren't doing all those things right? Immigrants maybe, but not illegals.

Yes, illegals are doing those things.

[IntellectuallyChallenged]

Lets not and say we did.

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You realize illegals aren't doing all those things right? Immigrants maybe, but not illegals.

You must be one of those very few people that does things for yourself. Kudos. You are my hero today.

[NineSpine]

Yes, you can have capitalism without government. You simply cannot manipulate capitalism (and have corporatism) without it.

I don't think one needs government to protect property. That doesn't mean I personally won't use violence against you. If you choose to harm me or my family, I will use violence. If you think you can take what is mine, I welcome you to try.

So unless I respect YOUR version of property rights, you will use violence to stop me, but when other people say that they will use violence to protect THEIR version of property rights, you say they hate freedom and liberty. Do you know what hypocrisy is? You seem to believe that "I will use violence to enforce the rules I want society to work by" is alright for YOU but not for anyone else.

Capitalism is an invention of governments. Anything else is a fantasy.

[Mormolyce]

I am sure that if the US had stopped those 60% of illegal immigrants who did cross the border, then Trump wouldn't have been able to use it so effectively. It is hardly an insignificant percentage.

As I posted in the other thread, net migration from Mexico is actually negative. Facts were irrelevant to the Trump campaign.

[Machismo]

So unless I respect YOUR version of property rights, you will use violence to stop me, but when other people say that they will use violence to protect THEIR version of property rights, you say they hate freedom and liberty. Do you know what hypocrisy is? You seem to believe that "I will use violence to enforce the rules I want society to work by" is alright for YOU but not for anyone else.

Capitalism is an invention of governments. Anything else is a fantasy.

If you try to cause harm to me or my family, then I will use violence... personally. I won't demand that a government do it, nor will I demand that someone else pay for it. You want the government to be violent for you. I have no desire to force my rules on you, merely stop you from forcing your rules on me, or harming my family.

Government is nothing more than the threat of force. It's doing things that people are unwilling to do themselves. I'm willing to do it myself, so no government is necessary. That's not hypocrisy, it's merely an acceptance of personal responsibility.

[Flatspriest]

That's not how statistics works. 1000 people, provided that it is a sufficiently randomized sample, is absolutely acceptable for a total population of 300M. That's not an opinion. That's math. Statistics has no such rule as .01% of the population. Furthermore, if you think most major polling organizations don't realize that the country needs to be polled all over, you are committing the classic error of assuming that everyone else is a complete fucking idiot, without actually verifying it. It's standard practice to randomize a national poll throughout the country.

Thank you for making my point for me. It proves that statistics are a load of shit when you say statistics work one way and they don't. That has been proven time and again with how the media polls slant the results to say what they want them to say or they simply ask the people they want to ask rather than an actual cross-section of the actual population. Yeah, the exit polls showed Shillary winning. That is due to the fact the pollsters went to areas known to predominantly vote democrat to conduct their poll.

[NineSpine]

if you try to cause harm to me or my family, then I will use violence... personally. I won't demand that a government do it, nor will I demand that someone else pay for it. You want the government to be violent for you. I have no desire to force my rules on you, merely stop you from forcing your rules on me, or harming my family.

You just said you will use violence against me if I don't obey your rules, then you tell me you have no desire to force your rules on me. That's what forcing rules on someone means.

Government is nothing mroe than the threat of force. It's doing things that people are unwilling to do themselves. I'm willing to do it myself, so no government is necessary. That's not hypocrisy, it's merely an acceptance of personal responsibility.

Capitalism doesn't exist if people can just kill you and take your things without consequences, not to mention that capitalism can't exist without currency and currency requires government as well. You are just describing a situation where the person with the most power (such as the biggest military force) owns everything due to their ability to take it at will.

[Blobfish]

They will probably hide them in their Attics
when Trumpys immigration squad come a knocking.

Can;t wait for the "Diary of Anne Francisco"

[NineSpine]

Thank you for making my point for me. It proves that statistics are a load of shit when you say statistics work one way and they don't. That has been proven time and again with how the media polls slant the results to say what they want them to say or they simply ask the people they want to ask rather than an actual cross-section of the actual population. Yeah, the exit polls showed Shillary winning. That is due to the fact the pollsters went to areas known to predominantly vote democrat to conduct their poll.

Exit polls are widely considered very ineffective and nobody takes them more seriously than "That's interesting".

I've actually studied statistics at the graduate level. You just don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Statistics is a field of mathematics. It is not opinion. It is math. Read a fucking book.