I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Jewsco]

And where exactly did i say we raided that much outside of progression ? I am talking about progression because you were trying to be hyperbolic by stating that Vanilla top guilds grinded way more outside of raids than how it is now, and progression races are obviously the ones which would require the most grind out of raids possible, and that was the case back then. And in Vanilla's case, while existed, is no where close to what it is now, mostly because RNG amounts for an almost infinite progression treadmill which didn't exist back then.

And about your questions, please, point me exactly at what part of "grinding very little outside of raids to be able to do raids on a competitive level" did you get lost ?

Because that's the whole point of the thread. Not about how many hours you invest, but how many hours you have to invest doing something else than raids. And the funny thing, is that i don't even care, i like having things to do outside of raids, and i like mythic+, i was just answering to your incorrect example.

So you didn't need consumables, gold, resistance gear or attunements back then?
All that took a lot of time. How guilds got around some stuff like consumables was that some people just to be in said guild to maybe have a shot at raiding one day did that for the guild.
To say we have bigger or more grinds now is a joke.

[avahle]

When NH drops, there is going to be tier sets and trinkets in there that make anything outside raids a lot less desirable. And also, I am not sure why people are rushing their AP farming. There aren't going to be any new traits till 7.2 hits. I just plan to get the 5% passive damage buff before NH drops (meaning 35 traits before middle/end of Jan). Any more AP will increase you output by such a small margin it's just not worth it. I have all of NH to bank up AP for when 7.2 drops.

[Hctaz]

I'm sorry but this is just you failing to adapt to a new design philosophy.

Why should I? It's less fun and I doubt it's any more fun for the majority of the cast. It's not even like I'm saying remove this system. I'm only saying that M+ gear should have a lower cap than raids. Raid gear is capped weekly. It'd be fair that way.

[Nikkej]

First of all, Primals whatever the name for them had a equal drop chance of every high level elemental, secondly, you weren't the only one farming them, there were probably 10 people at the same exact spot farming with you on a medium server mind you. Dailies came in late TBC if i remember correctly (actual dailies not the Daily heroic and Daily dungeon), the only way to actually farm gold was to farm in Tyr's Hand and/or Hearthglen, unless you got lucky and got an epic or whatever. Sure you could sell herbs/ore whatever but even those took a insane amount cause a) no flying b) humongous zones.

Seems to me you don't really remember how grindy those were.

The first daylies was in in Terrokkar Forest iirc. I do not really remember if they came at the same time or before the ones in Blades Edge.

You could farm motes from lesser stuff, and combine to primals. I did build a helli and just rotated nagrand for an hour or so, that was shitloads of gold back in the days.

Point is that you could find different ways to keep up with raiding costs. OK, there was only one way to grind resistance gear , but you could do that together (if you didnt buy it) quick.



Now we are on a totally different page tho. Now we are forced to do other content on a grindy basis, not just do a attunement chain or gear up some, but we have to spend litteraly days of grinding to get as prepared we can for raiding.

Just clear EN Mythic was far from enough to do Mythic ToV, thats for sure.

[Sansnom]

With my guild, people selected the opposite gamestyle to be a part of our guild. They didn't want to spend endless amounts of time in WoW. People wanted to be semi competitive raiding 7 hours a week, and playing maybe another 4-5 oustide of raids.

If people do not want to devote so much time in the game, then they really are in no position to complain about behind others.

Nowadays, people need to play 2-4x that much to stay competitive with other guilds, or even stay competitive within the same guild.

Which leads to this statement. If some guilds or guild members wants to remain ahead, then they will probably do everything as much possible to stay ahead.

If others wants to remain on par, then they either make the same commitment or accept they will fall behind. This is a decision that the individual have to make for themselves.

[Notdev]

No they in fact don't tune the raids for bis. The top players clear it in much lesser gear because they are better and spend more time at it. They wipe 100's if not more times on the bosses. Thing is you need the extra gear to clear it or at least think so. And usually aren't willing to progress or wipe half as much as them.

Thats the way it used to be. Now, the top players START the raid in far better gear than they did ever before thanks to endless M+ farm. And AP farm adds to that, they start the raid far ahead of the more casual raider who reaches mythic a month later.

[Deleted]

Except I'm not? I did it in MoP. I'm pretty sure people did it in WoD. The only time this has been unobtainable is literally this expansion. So... I'm like... 5 months behind the times I guess? Not 5 years lol

Wait you had full warforged gear in WoD ? I highly doubt it. Blizzard made the descision to remove the ability to get full BiS gear. They did this for a reason, not by accident. The reason is to give players a never ending chance of improving their gear, hence make them play for a longer period of time. With bis items, players quit once they had all items they needed.

Now its your turn to realize this and adapt your ingame behavior accordingly

[Deleted]

LFR/nm/hc are all for you.

[Jewsco]

Except I'm not? I did it in MoP. I'm pretty sure people did it in WoD. The only time this has been unobtainable is literally this expansion. So... I'm like... 5 months behind the times I guess? Not 5 years lol

Mop was pretty much the last time one could easily get bis. Wod was the start of it not being possible with warforged and such.
And now with random stats and all it is indeed not the design anymore.

[shonist]

Iv never been a raidlogger.

Maybe I was unclear but - my problem is that when I login, I cant do whatever I want. Do some casual stuff, play some random BG, socialize RP in dalaran or whatever.

I imidietly feel I have to sign up for M+ boosting or start clear all the AP wq;s. I have to do this. Everyday, to keep up with the pace of the game. I do not care about others. But I do care that I want to be as efficient as possible and viable as possible - Yet, I have to play so many more hours then before, otherwise the game runs away from me, and I know a lot more players feels like this.


Its not that they think the expansion is bad or the game is boring - But feeling entiteled to play shitloads of hours in content to perform as good as possible IN RAIDS is just pure BS.

how about dont NEEDING to perform as good as possible? that its your problem, and a big one.
Lets say someone invites you to a football game, you will start training all your free hours until the match day so you go the best trained you could? if you are like that, its a real brain issue without offense. Because yes, if you train 16hs a day and practice all your free time. you will perform better.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Put a cap on Mythic+ at 5 per week. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Raids have a cap of once a week, there's nothing wrong with limiting content. As the OP so clearly shows, unlimited content that has a heavy demand can promote problems quite easily. Anyone who isn't a halfwit should be able to see that.

[araine]

Except I'm not? I did it in MoP. I'm pretty sure people did it in WoD. The only time this has been unobtainable is literally this expansion. So... I'm like... 5 months behind the times I guess? Not 5 years lol

And moving away from that BiS list with i am done with gear this tier i dont need to show up for raids anymore this tier is bad for the game and the subs in this game. Right now every damn boss can drop upgrades for you even a normal boss can do it. does that mean you run LFR each week for the miniscule chance of an 895 BiS to drop? of course you dont run it dont be silly. since the chance is abysmal for it to happen but wannabe's cried about how they are forced to run LFR this expansion as well just since it may that 1 run out of 2000 drop a good item.

[Hctaz]

Wait you had full warforged gear in WoD ? I highly doubt it. Blizzard made the descision to remove the ability to get full BiS gear. They did this for a reason, not by accident. The reason is to give players a never ending chance of improving their gear, hence make them play for a longer period of time. With bis items, players quit once they had all items they needed.

Now its your turn to realize this and adapt your ingame behavior accordingly

Or they could just keep raid gear the best gear by 10 item levels and solve this issue?

[Mizix]

I imidietly feel I have to sign up for M+ boosting or start clear all the AP wq;s. I have to do this. Everyday, to keep up with the pace of the game. I do not care about others. But I do care that I want to be as efficient as possible and viable as possible - Yet, I have to play so many more hours then before, otherwise the game runs away from me, and I know a lot more players feels like this.

If you really feel like this, you have an addiction problem. Get help. People like you don't even realize that if all of you stopped grinding stupid hours for the smallest and most insignificant upgrade, the pace of the game would slow down on itself. There are so many wannabe top world raiders that imitate the insane and stupid things world first guilds actually do, screwing it up for everyone else. You don't need to do what they do... let the wannabe world first be. Stop trying to stay competitive with those people if doing that is ruining the game for you. You mentioned that your guild is supposed to be a casual mythic guild: do that. Get together with your fellow guild mates and decide that "fuck them": you guys won't farm mythic+ ad nauseum just to stay competitive with other mythic guilds. As long as you complete the content while it is current, you are doing great progress and are likely geared for the next content. What do you even care about everyone else? It is ultimately you and your guild that decide the pace of the game, not a ranking website.

[Hctaz]

does that mean you run LFR each week for the miniscule chance of an 895 BiS to drop? of course you dont run it dont be silly. since the chance is abysmal for it to happen but wannabe's cried about how they are forced to run LFR this expansion as well just since it may that 1 run out of 2000 drop a good item.

LOL YES. YES YOU DO. Are you kidding me? Of course you do. LFR has a chance to give you legendary items as well as 895 titanforged. You're 100% encouraged to run LFR and Normal mode on your own time. Heroic too if your guild doesn't do that anymore either.

[jemd13]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the first page, but imo, yes, if you REALLY want to minmax so much that you do each of the AP dailies every day and are in a 7/7M guild, yes, you SHOULD do all the content to get the best gear, including M+s. No, you are not FORCED to. Either you or your guild are forcing you, no one else. If you don't like being "forced" to do all that content, then join a guild that isn't so hardcore.

My guild is 3/7M. I did my first 15 M+ last night on time. But I never do dailies asides from the 4 emissary ones, I don't do LFR and I only raid whatever my guild raids in the week, if one week we don't raid cause, dunno, holidays, I most likely won't raid at all. Am I forced to?. No. Is it possible for me to get amazing titanforged upgrades and lots of AP from LFR/N/H EN? Yes, but I don't do them cause I don't enjoy doing all that just to pray to the RNG that I get a titanforge or a Legendary.

You aren't forced to do anything, but yes, I do agree that if you want to be 7/7M, you SHOULD at least do some M+s during the week, but doing M+ all week? hell no, I have friends in guilds that are 7/7M and they don't even play that much. I personally enjoy 5man progression the most in this expansion.

The only way to avoid all this is to put a weekly cap on M+s, which causes people to be left with nothing to do. So no, I cannot say I agree. The only thing forcing you is either yourself or your guild, and, like I said before, if your guild is so hardcore that you feel forced to do content that you don't enjoy, maybe you should try another guild that doesnt force you to do that. But if you're REALLY looking to minmax so much, then I feel its completly fair that you have to do some content that you don't enjoy as much, as long as its still PvE content. One could argue that you're also "forced" to do any WQ that gives 840 gear just for a chance to titanforge but I don't think its fair to call it "being forced to".

[Deleted]

Or they could just keep raid gear the best gear by 10 item levels and solve this issue?

No, they want raiders to not take breaks because everyone has their bis items. They want them to continue playing even if everyone is fully decked in the raid's items.

Your need to accuire BiS items exists only in your head and is part if a mental illness called OCD. You think you need it, but you don't.

[Deleted]

I'm with you on this one.

I loved raiding from the first raid I've been invited to - I'm talking vanilla here. The very concept (didn't get any loot at the time) was amazing for me.

...but the amount of stupid, repetitive shit you have to do outside of raids is just insane. People who were complaining about vanilla being hard with all sorts of crap (some reputation, some "resist" gear etc) haven't seen Legion. This is 10 times worse, because at least in Vanilla, you could see the light at the end of the tunnel. Eventually, you'd get exalted with that faction. Eventually, you'd get your dark iron or nature resist gear.

In Legion, there's no "eventually". I've cleared 7/7M and, like the OP, I have very little gear from raiding. Most of it is from mythic+. Despite wearing 885 gear, there is no end in sight. I can't just stop doing the daily heroic once a day. I can't stop mythic+. I can't stop WQs. It's not that I'm hoping for another 895 titanforged or a 910 legendary. It's that ... I need AP to level my weapon. More and more and more and more and the only way to stay competitive is to get more AP. And you just have to do it - for that 5% increase. Then for each 0.5%. Then for the 4th trait to be introduced by 7.1.5 or 7.2

I regret buying Legion. Worst expansion ever. I know, some people hated Cataclysm, others hated MoP, others hated WoD. Nah. Those were state-of-the-art by comparison. At least you could reroll in those xpacks when your class proved to be underperforming. But now you can't, because...AP again.

I'm gonna check if I can "freeze" my account (I can't "unsub", because I'm not paying for WoW with money, I just bought 20 wow tokens in WoD) and if I can....see you the next time they trick me into buying an expansion.

No, you can't have my gold - because I've spent it on 5k g flasks, 2k g pots, 30k g enchants and XXXK g repairs mostly, lol.

[Bigbazz]

No they in fact don't tune the raids for bis. The top players clear it in much lesser gear because they are better and spend more time at it. They wipe 100's if not more times on the bosses. Thing is you need the extra gear to clear it or at least think so. And usually aren't willing to progress or wipe half as much as them.

They wipe 100s of times on the hard end bosses maybe, but not "the bosses" as you put it. As someone who raided during progression in Legion we cleared Heroic in the first 2 days with like 3-4 pulls on each boss, Mythic bosses before Heart of Corruption went down after 10-20 pulls each, I was I think ilvl859 when we killed Mythic Dragons in a top 100-200 guild. Method killed that same boss at ilvl869 average raid, They would have walked over that boss in a few pulls at that ilvl, not "undergearing" by any stretch of the imagination.

Top guilds don't wipe 100s of times on most bosses, that's the point they gear the shit out of their characters using the most extreme methods and they kill the bosses with very few wipes before spending time on the final hard bosses, like Heart of Corruption and Cenarius. Do you know how they geared? They boosted peoples Mythic + keys for free, only M+ 2-5 and generally Maw of Souls for the most efficient gear/AP farming, non stop outside of raids.

[Nikkej]

No they in fact don't tune the raids for bis. The top players clear it in much lesser gear because they are better and spend more time at it. They wipe 100's if not more times on the bosses. Thing is you need the extra gear to clear it or at least think so. And usually aren't willing to progress or wipe half as much as them.

This is some what wrong tho. Did you see what kind of gear the russians had when they killed Xavius? Almost all of their players had atleast 3 golden traits and 875-880 ilvl and on top of that, gucci gucci legendaries. This was what some people has now and still cant clear it. Imagine then how much they played?

In the world first interview they did state that they did play arpox 16+ hours a day, grinding M+ content to get the gear they wanted and toget the legendaries.