I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Deleted]

This is a key skill to learn, balance. Is it worth damaging your opinion of the game attempting to stay just ahead of the curve on artifact power? Will you really lose a substantial dps or healing by not running 9 dungeons a day?

[klaps_05]

Unless you are competing for first page of wowprogress you arent really forced to do these things. You can take your time, play at your own speed and progress through m+. Outside of top20, it doesnt really matter if you are #50 or #300 or #2000. And yes, there are people who are willing to clean 500+ mythics to get the best legs/TF/35traits/etc. So you just need a guild which doesnt go that way.

Even tho the system might seem like it is giving too many rewards, im currently a casual player, but I have 3 legendaries, 890 ilevel and 36 traits and I have about 200 mythic+ done and have not stepped in a mythic raid. In the past, raiding was the only way to get better gear, now I can do so without even raiding. And i like it, because i dont have the time to commit to a raiding schedule.

so the situation now is that if in wrath/cata 10% of the people had gear to be hardcore, now 50-75%(made up numbers, u get the point) of the people have gear. You can have your average Joe with 0 xp but fully geared up ready to join a mythic guild if he wants to. So the competition is a lot stronger.

So what you dont like is that with the old system you had unique access to a gear source, but now everyone does, so any random guy from trade can replace you if they can play as good as you can.

[Deleted]

How selfish can you be? It is partially thanks to people with your mentality that WoD happened; raid or do nothing. Seeing how many subscribers that expansion lost during its course, I say you are the minority...

[Aggrophobic]

I have spent a lot of time since Legion launch playing different classes and speccs. I really enjoy the leveling and I am 7/7M when it comes to raiding.
Across the years I have spent a lot of time in World of Warcraft and in the first two expacs iv playind in the very best guilds around.

It could be a fair bit of grinding then, I can agree on that, It was time consuming if you did stuff the wrong way rather then the efficient way.


But to compare that to whats going on today, that some people do, is just silly.

At this point, I feel forced to do M+ content not only go pray for good RNG and get the best DPS increase or utility legendaries for my class/role. I also feel like i have to be really lucky getting titanforged proccs on specific items - and id say 90% of the best raiding items comes outside of raids.

Dont get me wrong here, I really enjoy to do high M+ with friends. I do not like to feel forced to boost the shit out of bad players to get AP in a fast way.


I am sent out every day to do extreamly repetative daylies (at times, you get the same daylie two times a day) to get AP. This AP that I feel forced to grind to get thoose 35 traits, and then do even more grinding to get more traits thats coming down the road.


I have to do this grind a lot of hours every day - thats really boring - to do what I enjoy. This has never, ever, been the case before. In any expansion.


What I am against the most aint the time i need to spend on it - its that I am forced to do something that not has to do with raiding at all, to be able to raid in an efficient way.


Before I could choose what I did with my time, even if i spent the same amount of time just socializing on TS, jumped the Orgrimmar roofs or even fucking stood afk in the Garrison in WoD. I could so stuff I enjoyed, or even play another game. But now - Its logon and do AP grind everyday, otherwise you will soon fall behind so much its not even fun - even if you will be taken into raids, how fun is it beeing left behind?

So i spend my hours everyday, grind WQ;s, Grind 6-9 dungeons boosting bad people. I am ahead of most of the people. But I have never ever been this close to quit the game for good.


I just hope they put an end to 54 traits so we that sooner or later can skip this shitty AP clownfiesta thats going on.

I agree. The old daily system was better. With that you could have something to work towards. The system we have in Legion is just an endless grind.

Like you, I've never felt like giving up on WoW befor but I really do now.

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How selfish can you be? It is partially thanks to people with your mentality that WoD happened; raid or do nothing. Seeing how many subscribers that expansion lost during its course, I say you are the minority...

Well, you have no idea how many have left in Legion already as they won't show you sub numbers... For obvious reasons.
The servers are pretty damn empty right now though. There we more people out in the world in WoD despute the fact that there was very little to do out in the world.

[Kauko]

They could ease off a bit with that AP grinding for offspecs, legendary drops, Titanforged... especially last two. I haven't met yet a person that likes it...

But, if you want to be the best and to play with the best? You have to do things the way you do it. Just accept the fact as I did. I don't have time to do all this so I do things at slower pace and still enjoy it. Thats just how it is now. Still prefer current situation than WoDs where even I (most casual of casuals) had nothing to do most of the time... To much stuff to do >>> nothing to do

[tikcol]

Blizzard and their chains

Nowadays it's pretty much assured they will force you into something. This RNG expansion called bloody Legion is nothing but a casino exansion that actually forces you to partake on their roller coaster of randomness.

It's actually very sad that you're forced, more than ever, to interact with other players in order to be successful. A guild, now more than ever, is needed in order for you to succeed as a good player. Very sad.

I share the opinion of many that they should just remove all of this non-sense development shackles they've put around their game and remove all sort of RNG progression mechanism and social interaction that is plaguing WoW.

[RyanEX]

Such a stupid comment. OP isn't asking for the other content to go away, just for the loot system to stop giving the best gear in the game outside of what is supposedly the hardest group content in the game.

This is in and of itself a stupid comment. You want them to STOP giving away the BEST gear in only the HARDEST content. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't doing harder stuff to get better stuff the correct way of doing things.

And...as has been stated numerous times...the only ones that would be FORCED to do things like this are those gunning hardcore for Mythic, like those going for rankings (whether it be raid on dungeon times). I'm not gunning for either so I don't feel forced cause I don't do them hardcore. If you're complaining about feeling "forced" then neither race is for you.

[Jewsco]

I agree. The old daily system was better. With that you could have something to work towards. The system we have in Legion is just an endless grind.

Like you, I've never felt like giving up on WoW befor but I really do now.

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Well, you have no idea how many have left in Legion already as they won't show you sub numbers... For obvious reasons.
The servers are pretty damn empty right now though. There we more people out in the world in WoD despute the fact that there was very little to do out in the world.

Who says one has to be maxed AP 3 months into the expansion? We have all to get maxed out. It is YOUR CHOICE as to how much you do or do not collect AP. If your friends or guild are "forcing" you to collect more AP than you want/like to it means one thing. Time to find friends or a guild that meet your play style. No thank you for the raid or die play style of wod.

- - - Updated - - -

Blizzard and their chains

Nowadays it's pretty much assured they will force you into something. This RNG expansion called bloody Legion is nothing but a casino exansion that actually forces you to partake on their roller coaster of randomness.

It's actually very sad that you're forced, more than ever, to interact with other players in order to be successful. A guild, now more than ever, is needed in order for you to succeed as a good player. Very sad.

I share the opinion of many that they should just remove all of this non-sense development shackles they've put around their game and remove all sort of RNG progression mechanism and social interaction that is plaguing WoW.

Look who is at it again calling for a single player game in a MMO.
How shocking

[Accendor]

You are not forced. The more content the better. Stop whining and develop some self discipline.

[Sinte]

I agree. The old daily system was better. With that you could have something to work towards. The system we have in Legion is just an endless grind.

Like you, I've never felt like giving up on WoW befor but I really do now.

- - - Updated - - -



Well, you have no idea how many have left in Legion already as they won't show you sub numbers... For obvious reasons.
The servers are pretty damn empty right now though. There we more people out in the world in WoD despute the fact that there was very little to do out in the world.

Lol, Sargeras went from no one being in the world because of garrisons, to bumping into 5-10 people anywhere I go about on broken isles. Yeah, definitely empty.

[Deleted]

Heres hoping i still have to do wq in 18 months time.

[Jtbrig7390]

You want to gut everyone elses content because you can't be asked to do it to stay competitive.

Ether accept you are not as "hardcore" as you think you are or find another game to play. When blizzard catered to only rewarding decent or the best to top content we got WOD.

The more rewarding content the better.

[tikcol]

Look who is at it again calling for a single player game in a MMO.
How shocking

I consider myself a revolutionary that will help push this game forward instead of it being shackled in place by archaic systems and development that lacks any vision.

[Aggrophobic]

Who says one has to be maxed AP 3 months into the expansion? We have all to get maxed out. It is YOUR CHOICE as to how much you do or do not collect AP. If your friends or guild are "forcing" you to collect more AP than you want/like to it means one thing. Time to find friends or a guild that meet your play style. No thank you for the raid or die play style of wod.

What a silly funing comment.
My "play style" has always been high end raiding. Not world first or even server first but still clearing the hardes content and an ok pace.
Anything else is just not fun.

The only other option is not playing at all.

WoW was never about this mindless grinding befor and I don't see the point of it now.

[Biowned]

With the current AK, it would take 40 hours of nonstop +7 mythics (3 m+ per hour) to get trait 35 from scratch. Most top guild players had to get it with 16 AK instead of 18 (Or is it 19 now, can't remember).

On earlier xpacs, I was able to log in 1 hour before raid and still play at a competitive level, right now it's impossible.

Ahh those nebulous concepts of "feel forced" and "viable"

What a joke.

You're forced to do them if you want to play on a competitive level, like it or not (Top 50 guilds).

I myself am getting benched in Mythic Helya because I don't have 35 traits on Fire (Mage) nor good legendaries for it. I've done every single Daily Chest and cleared every single Raid in each difficulty since release, but I'm still subpar because I don't have either the 5% dps increase nor a damage legendary.

Players with 35 traits have around 350 m+, which translates into 116 hours, or 1.3 hours a day every single day from release. If you add farm time, WQ time and Raid time to it, it gets pretty retarded.


I understand that playing on a competitive level requires dedication, but that dedication should be focused on mastering your character and raiding instead of mindless m+ boosting which at least for me, is one of the worst experiences I've had in this game. And don't get me wrong, m+ is fine if you're playing with your friends or pushing to +15, it's being "forced" to boost the same 2 dungeons over and over again, every day, every week, what's awful.

[tikcol]

You want to gut everyone elses content because you can't be asked to do it to stay competitive.

Ether accept you are not as "hardcore" as you think you are or find another game to play. When blizzard catered to only rewarding decent or the best to top content we got WOD.

The more rewarding content the better.

WOD was great. What was your argument again?

[Aggrophobic]

Lol, Sargeras went from no one being in the world because of garrisons, to bumping into 5-10 people anywhere I go about on broken isles. Yeah, definitely empty.

I doubt that and most are probably put there thanks to cross realm anyway. You're all funneled into the same area as well, thanks to world quests so thoes 5 people are pretty much every damn player in the zone.

[Deleted]

I'll try to drop my 2c as a former progress raider that quit mid tier (5/7M).

About us: Contender for server second; server first english guild. Semi hardcore 4d/wk 4hr/raid schedule.
About me: Played several classes in endgame content (warrior wotlk/cata, hunter wod, mage legion) in guilds ranking anywhere from 5000th to 200th worldwide.

Major game design issues in Legion IMO:

1) At least for the first raid, the best gear is not obtainable by raiding or other reasonably achievable sources.
If you want the best stats, and no item is itemized that way outside of M+ dungeons, you'll be "forced" to run that specific M+, hoping for a TF version of your item to drop. The chances are abyssmal, considering you hope for the one item to be picked for the chest, as well as it being WF/TF.

TL;DR: If you want the best stats, grind your ass off in 5-mans or go for another worse itemized alternative. For a high-end raider this is a bad deal either way.

2) Legendaries
You already know about this. There was an initial bug allowing some people to get X legendaries in no time, then there was a uncircumventable cap for 4 legendaries.
To make things worse only 2-3 legendaries per class are desirable to begin with, because for whichever reason DPS-effects were introduced on them. You'd imagine that going all out DPS was the obvious approach to Blizzard (considering that's how it works in other games like diablo, and that's also how it worked in WoW forever), but they apparently really though you'd use that shield neck.

TL;DR: Legendaries were initially buggy, are still mostly trash, and getting the good ones is too much of an upgrade for a purely no-prerequisites-RNG based item.

3) The endless AP grind and the death of the 0.1% wipe

I think an endless "content creation" (grind objective) tool like AP isn't a bad deal.
Even in Diablo-like games you'd basically level forever, and continue to grow more powerful. Does that mean a level 85 character is vastly less powerful than a level 93 character? No. What's the playtime difference? Probably dozens to hundreds of hours. Overall this is a good solution to keep people playing by offering small rewards for big time investments.

In Diablo-like games however, there is no real gameplay challenge to overcome in the lategame. It's designed primarily as a grind.

In games like WoW where the challenge of PVE content comes from making bosses as tightly tuned as possible, this system begins to favour people (or guilds of people) that play A LOT. In the Diablo analogy this means that the level 85 character has to play with every single trick in the books (possibly even exploiting) to beat the act-boss, while a level 93 character can just walk over him spamming the normal rotation simply because he unlocked a passive 10% damage increase; thus allowing him to easily beat the enrage mechanic.

TL;DR: You can't make tightly tuned PVE bosses when everyone's powerlevel is so fluctuating through AP, Legendaries, max-upgraded dungeon drops, etc. This leads to counter intuitive solutions like capped ilvl drops, people leveling several characters of the same class, people playing WAY too much and burning out, etc.

Overall I think Legion did well however. It had many cool things to offer that were a lot of fun for a while. The most problematic thing is, that too many too good rewards were offered in return for RNG (WF/TF, Legendaries) and straight up grinding (AP, to some degree Alchemy). Both of which, you can only improve on by playing a lot, basically.

On the other end of the spectrum, raiding costs a boatload of gold (lol potions), and offers very little reward.
Namely: sub-par items, mediocre trinkets, little AP, and the off chance for a legendary drop.

Combine that with the fact that the fairly easy heroic mode regularly drops Mythic or higher ilvl loot, and you'll end up with a lot of burnout within the Mythic raiding community; which is exactly what we're seeing.

[Jtbrig7390]

WOD was great. What was your argument again?

Ya so great its total subs dropped lower then Class Wow levels and blizzard stopped reported them from that point onward.

Only thing great about WOD was the WoW Token system that came out.

[mingarrubia]

WOD was great. What was your argument again?

No, for most of the playerbase it wasn't.