I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Ragedaug]

Dont get me wrong here, I really enjoy to do high M+ with friends. I do not like to feel forced to boost the shit out of bad players to get AP in a fast way.

So what I'm hearing is you want to be on the cutting edge of the competition, and be super geared out (all Titanforged), with a maxed weapon (35+), to put yourself in the top 5% of players, but not actually have to do anything outside of raiding to get there.

I guess I'm confused why you expect to have all the haves without doing any of the things.

Is the counter argument that everyone should just have Titanforged gear and 35+ weapons? I guess I'm confused. I mean, I get it if you don't want to do the things, but the whole point to being able to do world quests and farm AP, etc. is an answer to the lack of anything to do outside of raiding in WoD. Are you saying you want WoD back?

[Nikkej]

If you don't have your 35 traits yet you aren't very far ahead and haven't been consuming content they way you make it seem like you are. Good news once you get your 1 point into your 4th gold dragon the grind comes to a 0.5% crawl and you can let off the gas.

I have 2 chars with 35 traits, or well, almost. One is 35 and one is 34, but iv ben behind on AK since i rerolled late september. Thing is here I dont mind that you can grind a lot to get AP - Some like it and sure thing, they can do.

My problem bottoms in that to prepare for the most, current, endgame content there is, you are forced to grind M+ got get as prepared as possible, rather then perform as good as possible in the raids.

[Jewsco]

No, grinding mats and gold for repair took nowhere near the amount of time grinding AP legendaries and titanforged items does.
I even played warlock back in vanilla so yeah, I know you had to farm thoes damn soul shards.
had my bags filled with them every raid. It was annoying as heck, for sure.

Not something I want to go back to but still, many of the systems in Legion might be just as bad and the AP and legendaries are way worse than anything they came up with for vanilla.

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Again, I don't want a Diablo clone, I want WoW.
The gear is not intresting, AP is just a chore.

It's not fun.

If all that stuff wasn't a grind then you didn't play back then or possibly had more time back then and it didn't seem so grindy did you think of that ?
When has gearing up been "fun"? It was always a grind and luck fest. Winning gear in 40 man raids took lucky rolls or aquiring time in the raid team with things like gpdp

[Darkguyver2020]

Topics like this are why we ended up with an expansion like WoD where there was nothing to do outside of raiding.

Agreed. And if this sort of complaint keeps rearing it's ugly head from players who don't have a clue in their heads, the next expansion after Legion will be WoD 2.0.

[Nikkej]

So what I'm hearing is you want to be on the cutting edge of the competition, and be super geared out (all Titanforged), with a maxed weapon (35+), to put yourself in the top 5% of players, but not actually have to do anything outside of raiding to get there.

I guess I'm confused why you expect to have all the haves without doing any of the things.

Is the counter argument that everyone should just have Titanforged gear and 35+ weapons? I guess I'm confused. I mean, I get it if you don't want to do the things, but the whole point to being able to do world quests and farm AP, etc. is an answer to the lack of anything to do outside of raiding in WoD. Are you saying you want WoD back?

I didnt mind WoD that much, mainly cus the raids was excellent, challenging and rewarding. I liked to do CM;s as well, cus it was allways atleast a lil bit of challange.
I barely spent time outside of the Garrison tho, as everybody else. It was gr8 for alts tho. But yes, WoD was drought empty on content for a long time, i agree on that. But then I could atleast do something else - Now I cant to stay on a relevant artifact skill level - I have to grind everyday to try get upgrades to stay competetive. I am not asking to get everything served, what I do not like is that I feel I have to do a lot of M+ grinding to be as prepared for raiding as possible.


Like this:

Was clearing Mythic EN for 4 resets going to give you enough fot kill M helya?

The answer to that is prob - No. You needed to have grinded the shitload out of M+ 5man content as well.

[Hctaz]

What alternative do you suggest? Please go into detail how the game/endgame should be built to satisfy everybody.

The problem is that there isn't a cap to the rewards in some way. If you farm endless amounts of mythic plus then you are rewarded for doing so which, coupled with the warforge/titanforge system, creates a constant "need" to farm them. If you aren't decked in full 895s then you're not doing enough mythic pluses.

[Eats Compost]

You know, you COULD instead create your own Mythic group using your keystone you get.

Then you can dictate who you bring and go from there.

As a bad player, I appreciate players like you boosting me. The groups I form I'm perfectly honest about my ilvl and that it's a carry going in. You don't have to join my group and I don't have to invite you and we go our merry ways without getting frustrated at one another.

To be fair, I don't think that Blizzard intended for boosting to be such an overwhelmingly dominant proportion of M+ activity. Allowing keystones to be an asset for guaranteed group placement is one thing, but a system that heavily encourages players to repetitively blast through dungeons that they radically outgear and outskill is another.

The granularity of M+ was intended to allow players to push the difficulty up to the most appropriate level for a group at any given time, and while that certainly is happening with a significant chunk of the player base, I'm sure that Blizzard finds it a little frustrating that legendaries and AP farm have pushed most of it in a different direction. M+ Maw of Souls in the dungeon finder is like some kind of parody of itself.

[Bartolo]

No one is forced to do anything. When you feel forced to do something it probably means that you are no longer playing at a level that you can handle, putting too much pressure on yourself. Oh and Legion is among the best expansions so far, good job Blizz.

[Ragedaug]

the problem is that its an endless grind not like in mop or wod where you had caps and you need now luck more then in the past.

i personally dont care i do it when i want it and have time to do it, i have much luck with items i am 890 now and running m+ maybe 3 times a week for the weekly chest oh and 36/34 in artefact.

I don't see it as being as big of a problem as when there is a hard cap. When I had a hard cap, I felt like I had to hit it to be competitive. Now, I just do what I feel like doing. The only cap I feel compelled to make is to complete my emissary quests. Outside of that, I do what I feel like doing when I log on and have more fun because of it. My main is hardly what you would call "geared out" because of it, but like I said, I'm having fun logging in and doing what I feel like doing.

[Deleted]

I will never be happy with a 75% log. I allways aim for 99, things can happen > I mess up, someone else mess up, etc. I allways want to be atleast 90+


But thats not the answer. The answer here is that I do not want to feel entiteled to do endless fo M+ 5man content grinding for AP and Gear to be as prepared i can be for the current raid.

How do you get prepared for something like M ToV? You grind Endless of 5m mythic+. And thats just fucking retarded.

I have 890 equipped and I do maybe 3 m+ per week, I know anecdotal evidence isn't great but you're making it sound like you'll be stuck at 850 forever without grindign 10m+ per day.

[Shammyrock]

Wow has always been a grind. Now the grind is actually rewarded with character development at max level which is much preferable to me personally than grinding out the same quests daily for a reputation gates reward. Or in WoD where there was very little motivation to do anything but wait for rewards and raids.

If you feel you have to rush and complete everything asap after its released that's on you not Blizzard

[Deleted]

The problem is that there isn't a cap to the rewards in some way. If you farm endless amounts of mythic plus then you are rewarded for doing so which, coupled with the warforge/titanforge system, creates a constant "need" to farm them. If you aren't decked in full 895s then you're not doing enough mythic pluses.

i have been farming m+ excessively for the first time since legion came out 2 weeks before ToV opened. I'm now 35 which is sufficient for the content of Mythic ToV. others in the guild have been farmign 24/7 since launch and are level 38. Their advantage is so minor it doesnt matter. And I spent 1/20th of the time they did farming m+. Aritifact knowledge does the job of being the counter to "being forced to play 24/7". If they increase the 5-day boost from 25% to say 50% or more, it will even give less incentive to farm a lot early, and just do the weekly chest.

TL;DR: competitive raiders really only have to farm m+ 2 weeks before new content launches.

[rda]

I just hope they put an end to 54 traits so we that sooner or later can skip this shitty AP clownfiesta thats going on.

This will never happen, that's the entire design of artifacts - a grind that lasts forever. Not defending it, just saying.

[Deleted]

I have spent a lot of time since Legion launch playing different classes and speccs. I really enjoy the leveling and I am 7/7M when it comes to raiding.
Across the years I have spent a lot of time in World of Warcraft and in the first two expacs iv playind in the very best guilds around.

It could be a fair bit of grinding then, I can agree on that, It was time consuming if you did stuff the wrong way rather then the efficient way.


But to compare that to whats going on today, that some people do, is just silly.

At this point, I feel forced to do M+ content not only go pray for good RNG and get the best DPS increase or utility legendaries for my class/role. I also feel like i have to be really lucky getting titanforged proccs on specific items - and id say 90% of the best raiding items comes outside of raids.

Dont get me wrong here, I really enjoy to do high M+ with friends. I do not like to feel forced to boost the shit out of bad players to get AP in a fast way.


I am sent out every day to do extreamly repetative daylies (at times, you get the same daylie two times a day) to get AP. This AP that I feel forced to grind to get thoose 35 traits, and then do even more grinding to get more traits thats coming down the road.


I have to do this grind a lot of hours every day - thats really boring - to do what I enjoy. This has never, ever, been the case before. In any expansion.


What I am against the most aint the time i need to spend on it - its that I am forced to do something that not has to do with raiding at all, to be able to raid in an efficient way.


Before I could choose what I did with my time, even if i spent the same amount of time just socializing on TS, jumped the Orgrimmar roofs or even fucking stood afk in the Garrison in WoD. I could so stuff I enjoyed, or even play another game. But now - Its logon and do AP grind everyday, otherwise you will soon fall behind so much its not even fun - even if you will be taken into raids, how fun is it beeing left behind?

So i spend my hours everyday, grind WQ;s, Grind 6-9 dungeons boosting bad people. I am ahead of most of the people. But I have never ever been this close to quit the game for good.


I just hope they put an end to 54 traits so we that sooner or later can skip this shitty AP clownfiesta thats going on.

So you would rather have very little to do instead of "optional" ways of getting an edge? I agree with you that the TF/Legendary system can be extremely tedious and grindy, but I would rather have stuff to do on my main character besides the weekly reclear of content that can often last for months.

Imo, the AP grind is pretty good. It gives people the option to log in and progress their character; and without getting too far ahead. You are usually never more than 3-4 levels behind the guy in your guild going ham, and post 35 the actual benefit of those levels are very insignificant.

TLDR; The artifact system is a bit rough around the edges but imo is a step in the right direction. The Legendary/TF System needs a MAJOR rework / balance.

[Bigbazz]

You're not really forced but I understand how it can feel that way.

Not forced to be viable, but definitely forced to be competitive. A lot of the best items drop from Mythic plus or Karazhan, the majority of them infact. And with AP farming being key to character progression you really are technically forced to do other content to be competitive. Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily but for sure it kills that large group of high progression players who only logged on to raid, and were able to be optimal because 100% of character progression was done in raids.

[Deleted]

I just hope they put an end to 54 traits so we that sooner or later can skip this shitty AP clownfiesta thats going on.

This will never happen, that's the entire design of artifacts - a grind that lasts forever. Not defending it, just saying.

Yep, they already said that artifact knowledge and progression will continue throughout legion until the end. (was an interview on twitch with watcherDev)

[Xjev]

I still only raid, I do almost zero world quests, mythics, LFRs etc. I'm behind but still viable, perks of being in a friendly but strong guild. I'm just letting artifact knowledge and raid artifact power drops take its course.

[Fiftyonred]

I agree. The old daily system was better. With that you could have something to work towards. The system we have in Legion is just an endless grind.

Like you, I've never felt like giving up on WoW befor but I really do now.

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Well, you have no idea how many have left in Legion already as they won't show you sub numbers... For obvious reasons.
The servers are pretty damn empty right now though. There we more people out in the world in WoD despute the fact that there was very little to do out in the world.

I got no idea where you get this from. This is the best expansion i have ever played, which is a statement shared with all i play with (and we started pre-tbc).
There is always something to do, some way to progress, raids are great and mythic+ content is the fucking best invention ever!

Gearing is perfect, as you are not forced to rely on 19 morons to do hard content, but can do the same degree of difficulty with a small core group, with must more room for using the full utility of your class.

PvP finally got their own talents, classes generally play very well, and if you want to grind, you can do that through the same awesome dailys which gets you power and gear, for reputations and professions.

And, lets not forget the genious of how warforged / titanforged works.

10/10 - and tbh if you dont like it, i think its time to accept you are part of a very minor vocal minority, and needs to play another game.

Basically "everyone" got everything they asked for, but yet some of you still bitch around.

[Deleted]

I'll never be able to understand this.

For years I've been listening to comments how there's nothing to do in the game, except there always was - fishing, archaeology, achievements, mounts, pets, leveling alts... Then people said that's not what they meant, the game just isn't fun. All they wanted to say with that was that they didn't have enough to do to increase character power since most players just play for item level.

Now, when there's something to do every day, all day, as much as you want, without even leveling alts or farming vanity items, people complain again how they have to do stuff they don't want to. Someone always doesn't like something, but you don't have to do it all the time. Sometimes I don't play for a day or two because of other things I have to or want to do - like work, go out or play other games. I also missed a good chunk of September and October because I was extremely busy. And yet now when I finish a few more world quests I'll get my 33rd trait.

Maxing out every single thing isn't for everyone and it's not meant to be. The top players and guilds who push for first kills or top PvP ranks are expected to farm everything all the time. Most (99.8%) other players are not. If someone's raid spot depends on them having 35 traits and farming M+ dungeons for Titanforged gear, then that's what they have to do. If they don't want to or can't do it, then they find a slightly less hardcore guild. We constantly delude ourselves that we're hardcore when we're not. It all depends on your goals and your guild's goals. A different case is if you want to max everything out, but don't have to. Then it's up to you to spend as much time as you want, but there's no pressure to do it. And it's definitely not grounds for complaining about how there's too much to do.

Enjoy this tempo. The game is in an incredible spot right now and it seems like it's just going to be getting better throughout this expansion and hopefully beyond.

+1 Amen!

I guess a lot of this "hardcore raiders" suffer from WoD raid syndrome, where consumbale was cheap and they cuold log for 3 hours to raid and never log again.

(i was like this too, and you know what? i just stopped competitive/organised raiding in Legion, and i enjoy the game anyway!)

The point is that a lot of people around here are not even World Of Warcraft players, but just "raid" players.
While it's their right to enjoy raids, they must not forget there are things outside raiding too.

[MasterHamster]

Last time Blizzard removed the "need" to do stuff outside of raiding in order to gain character power, we lost 6 million subs.
See, a very large part of the playerbase don't raid as the main part of their gameplay, and removing the rewards outside of raids will only be a repeat of WoD.

This plague of people saying they are "forced" to do things to stay at the front in an MMO nearly killed the game as the result of that shit during MoP gave us WoD.