I like to raid - I do not like beeing forced to do other content to be viable

[Fiftyonred]

ROFL

The biggest reason Legion is not praised universally and is usually viewed as "good, certainly better than WoD, but ..." is class design / ability pruning. Talk about a completely unnecessary turmoil that took tons of development resources and made many things worse instead of better.

And the second biggest reason is PVP not just being in ruins as is usual in the first patch of every addon, but being such crap that the ladder is now about 60% of what it was during WoD. Yes, really. I figure you don't really PVP and are talking about things like PVP talents just because you heard something about them and thought that they should be good. Surprise - PVP talents are perhaps not a bad thing, but they are a small nit in a sea of changes, and other big changes which affect PVP were terrible.

Not sure you could be more anecdotal if you try but....give a wizz, brother§

- - - Updated - - -

Odd, everyone I play with says it's the worst expantion or at least in the same league as WoD and large parts of my guild are made up of people I played with since vanilla.
To be honest, the only people I've seen that actually like Legions gearing and AP system is this small group of white knights here on MM-C. Like you.

Guess we know different groups of people out of the millions of millions of players currently playing the game.

[rda]

Not sure you could be more anecdotal if you try but....give a wizz, brother§

My post is the antithesis of anecdotal. Ie, when I say that the PVP ladder is now about 60% of what it was during WoD, that's straight from the stats. See arenamate.com, for example.

You obviously aren't following anything regarding PVP, so stop saying how it is and start asking.

[Daefish]

To be fair, I don't think that Blizzard intended for boosting to be such an overwhelmingly dominant proportion of M+ activity. Allowing keystones to be an asset for guaranteed group placement is one thing, but a system that heavily encourages players to repetitively blast through dungeons that they radically outgear and outskill is another.

The granularity of M+ was intended to allow players to push the difficulty up to the most appropriate level for a group at any given time, and while that certainly is happening with a significant chunk of the player base, I'm sure that Blizzard finds it a little frustrating that legendaries and AP farm have pushed most of it in a different direction. M+ Maw of Souls in the dungeon finder is like some kind of parody of itself.

Fair enough, I can see your point. I felt this week like it was almost like old school D2 runs. "My Forge for your Carry" type things.
Honestly I'd be fine with them changing the system in some way to make carries less prevalent. But I guess as long as it's in the game, I'm going to take advantage.
My end game is to gear my tank spec up with the M+ runs so I can start running them myself and take them in the direction that was originally intended - moving up the ladder and becoming progressively better as time goes. I'm pretty close to that point but even at 860 tank spec I feel like at this point I'm always going to be passed over for M+ unless I form my own group.

[Sting]

Mythic+ is a shit system and I'm sick of grinding AP too.

[rda]

So, about as popular as WoD then? Seems about right, yeah.

Well, not yet, but if they delay 7.1.5 (or, later, 7.2, or if any of these will significantly underdeliver, etc), it can get to these levels, yes.

In other words, the apathy of WoD has NOT been cured and is far from being cured. It is completely premature to be talking about comebacks. There are positive signals, yes, but they aren't all that big, it all depends on what they are going to do in the next year, it is not like they set themselves up in a great position already, the current position is pretty flakey.

[Deleted]

It's a video game people, unless you are a member of, I don't know say top 200 guilds, YOU DON'T HAVE to do anything. It's very much possible to only gear up through raids if you don't wanna spam M+ and WQs. Will it be slower compared to someone spamming M+/WQs outside of raid times, most definitly yes (except some RNG ). Will you have all BiS items? Probably not since some drop in M+, but you will sure as hell have enough to progress raiding.

In Legion right now you have a shortcut to gear equal to raiding gear with the legendary & TF system. Don't like it? Don't take it. It's not harder than that. And if your guild is forcing you to, well hate to break it to you, then maybe your not as hardcore as you think you are.

I for once much rather have Legion style where contents stay relative over WoD and traditional style, where you do content A until your ready for content B and so on.

[Superbriggs]

I don't post much (obviously) but I tend to agree with this post. I thought M+ was supposed to be an "alternative to raiding" not "by far the best and if you raid competitively you basically have to spam the hell out of these." The gear is better, the AP is better, and there is basically no end to how many you can do. It's not like you can raid over and over and over or there are endless world AP quests or that the AP from PVP is as good as M+. Just look at raiding profiles from high parses or advanced guilds...probably 2-4 pieces of their gear are from raids and all the rest mythic+, just feels backwards to me. I think the tier sets will help, but this is frustrating. I get some people love them, just stating my opinion...

[Deleted]

its not that if people dont agree with me their wrong, its the fact that only you and your "so called guildies" for some reason think legion is on par with WoD when really if that was the case i wouldnt be playing wow again, and enjoying it as much as i have been in all sorts of aspects of the game.

nearly twice as popular as WoD seems about right yea christmas coming up and all that people taking time off to do other shit, wich happens in Every mmo every seasonal occasion, obviously you know that tho.

[Deleted]

Im pretty sure alot of old veterean raiders is feeling the exact same way as you do OP.

Lets just hope blizzard will see it their failures and learn from it (even tho, im pretty sure they already have admittet alot of mistakes already. I wonder how they couldnt see this current system would faill)

[Ham on Rye]

Dont get me wrong here, I really enjoy to do high M+ with friends. I do not like to feel forced to boost the shit out of bad players to get AP in a fast way.

I raid Mythic EN, am iLevel 880, and have only done Mythic Plus with my small group. Not once have I ever boosted a baddie just for AP, or felt like I had to or was forced to. I have 32 points in my artifact, which is perfectly acceptable. And I'm getting along just fine. Completely viable and a valued contributor in our raids.

Seems like the only problem here is you.

[Deleted]

You are not forced to do anything. If you want raid semi-casualy choose guild where you can raid like that. If you want to play hardcore go to HC guild. If there is problem for you to do world Q each day and do M+ then HC guild is not for you. There are guilds with nice progression even without being HC and do all the things around and where 1-2 traits or few item lvls doesnt matters.

Im not HC raider. i do AP WQs only (+pvp for honor) because i like them. 3 raids a week (3 hours) and 1 max 2 (3 hours) runs of M+ with friends and i am 35 trait on my main weapon. and 882 ilvl.

[tratra]

OP a lot of threads coming on saying that M+ should be limited in times.

E.g run 10 successful m+ a week and thats it ur capped, cant loot anymore.

Very easy fix. Blizzard has been burning people by making those stupid dungeons relevant. What they don't get is that a raid like EN for example runs for 3-4 months and thats it. Dungeons are going to get old and imagine a year running them on the pace you run them now to stay in touch with AP... I see a greater number o sub drops than any other expansion tbh.

[Bigbazz]

So you want wod's design back? Because that is what you are describing the raid or die system we had last expansion. How did that work out for the game overall? Pretty bad as the game lost the most subs at the quickest rate ever.
So no, that was not a good system nor good for the game

You mean the system that was in the last 4 expansions? And where did I say I wanted it? Don't put words into my mouth.

[pmkaboo]

Nope, the only people placing those requirements are players themselves. You could pick the sources of AP you want to gather, but if you're determined to get the maximum you'll have to do content you personally may not enjoy.

im afraid youre only looking at the extreme here. consider this: youre very casual(in sense of time played) mythic raider, and you just do the bare minimum, you know, to not feel bad about holding your team back. this bare minimum is daily cache and heroic, and maybe picking up some flowers here and there, this takes you about 1.5 hour a day, so 10.5 hours a week. your guild raids 3 nights for 3 hours, total of 9 hours per week. do you see the problem or should i go into more detail?

[tratra]

I raid Mythic EN, am iLevel 880, and have only done Mythic Plus with my small group. Not once have I ever boosted a baddie just for AP, or felt like I had to or was forced to. I have 32 points in my artifact, which is perfectly acceptable. And I'm getting along just fine. Completely viable and a valued contributor in our raids.

Seems like the only problem here is you.

you are a casual obviously thats why. The other guy's guilds might have different requirements.
And mythic EN is made for casuals tbh, when you enter TOV M you need at least 15+ people with 35 on their weps to get passed by. And don't go on and tell me method did helya with 14 people on 35 just fine... because method are method etc and top guilds will always do things that you cant like beating M EN at 865ilvl while you struggling at 880ilvl. So ye the OP has a fair point, for people that want to participate into actual progress its a nightmare gathering all that AP and you are forced out of your way.

[Hctaz]

i have been farming m+ excessively for the first time since legion came out 2 weeks before ToV opened. I'm now 35 which is sufficient for the content of Mythic ToV. others in the guild have been farmign 24/7 since launch and are level 38. Their advantage is so minor it doesnt matter. And I spent 1/20th of the time they did farming m+. Aritifact knowledge does the job of being the counter to "being forced to play 24/7". If they increase the 5-day boost from 25% to say 50% or more, it will even give less incentive to farm a lot early, and just do the weekly chest.

TL;DR: competitive raiders really only have to farm m+ 2 weeks before new content launches.

It literally has nothing to do with AP. I specifically said "if you aren't fully decked in 895s then you're doing it wrong."

If you don't have your two BiS legendary items and full 895s you should still farm mythic pluses 24/7 until you get them.

[Glorious Leader]

Actually, the best gear is not at all in raids.
And yes, you're forced to do it.

Once tier comes out yes it is!

[Ham on Rye]

you are a casual obviously thats why. The other guy's guilds might have different requirements.

I don't think you know what "a casual" means. And if the other guy's guild has different requirements, then that's his fault entirely, not Blizzard's. He knowingly joined a guild that would require him to go out of his way to do content at a breakneck pace because they think they're good enough to participate in the entirely unimportant World First race. When you voluntarily put yourself in that position, you don't get to bitch about it and blame Blizzard. Blame your own damn self and nobody else.

[Hctaz]

Once tier comes out yes it is!

Oh boy! Four pieces of gear that are 100% better than anything you can titanforge in mythic plus. I'm so excited.

[Glorious Leader]

Oh boy! Four pieces of gear that are 100% better than anything you can titanforge in mythic plus. I'm so excited.

You should be. As far as im concerned the monopoly thtlat raiding has on the best gear should die. Tier should be on a vendor.