27% of Europeans say rape may be acceptable in some circumstances

[Chrno]

I am glad im dutch for once ....

anyway, this survey smells ...

[Deleted]

Or I'm just hopelessly stuck in my ways. Growing up on the autism spectrum means you can't trust the body language of strangers and therefore verbal feedback is absolutely vital until a relationship is established.

Aha so you are a special snowflake... noted.

I think Mayhem already provided a quote for consent straight out of a law code. I doubt it's unique.

No he used a US legal dictionary definition. No reference to actual laws.

As for verbal consent - I don't think it needs to be verbal if body language otherwise clearly implies consent. But it has to be clear.

Well done you hit the nail on the head *slowclap*

Your INTERPRETATION of the meaning of consent is your own personal opinion. Everyone answering that bullshit survey have very different INTERPRETATIONS to the meaning of consent.

As i said previously... word the survey "Do you think its ok to rape somebody who cannot give consent in the following circumstances"

Lets see what results you would get then.

[Deleted]

Well... as far a central and western europe goes, those numbers are 100% not representative. Eastern europe i'm not as sure, but i have not met anyone that would even sugest it.

[Deleted]

That's actually not at all the results of the research. It's been misquoted/misinterpreted in newspapers/websites everywhere to push the sensational title.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

Yes, yes it does rape culture does exist, absolutely. Of course I agreee that it is not tolerated and is considered a heinous crime...when people recognise it as rape. The problem is that a lot of rape that happens is simply not recognised as rape. That is the whole reason it is called 'normalised' because society at large considers many acts of rape as simply normal behaviour.



Dude, I have been reading your viewpoint for a long time now. So I know a bit about your way of viewing this topic. Your problem is that you see only the extremist feminist viewpoint and choose, as a result, to write off all feminist opinions. Your use of the word idiocy is somewhat ironic.



Nice strawman. The rape culture "narrative" is not designed to demonise men. It's designed to demonise rapists who successfully masquerade as good people. And that starts by exposing them for what they are. Your problem is that you seem to see this as a battle of the sexes and as such perceive attacks on a specific subset of men as an attack on you. If you don't want to be demonised along with a bunch of rapists then stop being an apologist for them.

No, I don't believe we live in a culture of rape. Some people may think its okay to have sex with someone who is passed out, but that doesn't mean anywhere near the majority think its okay.

I'd even argue that those people that have sex with passed out people know its wrong, but don't care because they think they won't get caught.

[Deleted]

Well... as far a central and western europe goes, those numbers are 100% not representative. Eastern europe i'm not as sure, but i have not met anyone that would even sugest it.

Don't worry it's just the questionnaire and the results which are wrong.

It's sadly quite common in this field of study to fake the data, use loaded questions and other tricks to prove a point.

[Mayhem]

Well done for 100% backing up my point *slowclap*

That definition of rape is worlds apart from the question asked in the article. The author of the article INTENTIONALLY twisted the headline to something not discussed in the survey.

Secondly you might want to check that source... that page you linked is speaking 'generally'. And that means what you have listed is not a law. And ofc my point was talking about legal LAWS.

And thirdly the definition of consent in your link is completely different to way its been used in the article (the Feminist way). Nowhere does it say that verbal consent must be given by both parties before any sex happens. This is a Feminist position thats nothing short of utter bullshit.

I apologise if you didnt understand my point correctly, maybe i couldve worded it better. But hey, im not surprised considering you are attempting to push lies and bullshit as fact. Clutching at straws much?

Ok, how about these sources:
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s...ent-crime/rape
"The revised UCR definition of rape is: Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

http://definitions.uslegal.com/r/rape/
"KRS § 510.040. Rape in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when:

(a) He engages in sexual intercourse with another person by forcible compulsion; or

(b) He engages in sexual intercourse with another person who is incapable of consent because he:

1. Is physically helpless; or

2. Is less than twelve (12) years old. "

There, you have the UCR definition involving the term consent and kentucky law involving the term consent. Now can we stop moving the goal post?

[Lochton]

That's cool and all but what about the 80% of women who would like to have a say in giving consent?

Just as you can ask, what about the 73% of men who would like to have a say in giving consent?

[Holofernes]

is this consens thing some american invention? Never heard of it before.

I think i never asked a girl i was together with for her to consent.

To me it seems if you dont have it written or said before witnees, u are a rapist in this american definition?

I think the problem is Europeans have a totally other definition of what a rape is than you guys. For us, rape is sex against will, with violence and threat for life. Sex against will but not violent / threat is called "coersion", its not the same as rape.

So if u take drugs with a girl and fuck her aftewards, its not seen as rape in most of continental europe.
We had a process where a pornstarlet claimed to have been raped by 3 men (who rented her and they took drugs together), it was on tape. They were fucking like mad, 1 girl 3 guys, she was kind of passed out, but not completely, and in the end she was convicted because of wrong accusation thanks to the video.

So pls americans stop using the word "rape" so easy and often, its a severe crime (and not some fucking with some alcohole and late regret involved).

[Deleted]

Dunno, this sounds so funky, that I can't help and think that they tried to be as vague as possible.

Sounds to me like these people said "it's okay" because they think the scenario is something like this:

Girl/Guy is a bit drunk, flirts, shows willingness to have some hot body on body action - the other Guy/Girl doesn't specifically ask for "are you okay with having sex?" and they proceed to go down that road.

And the survey is like "HAHAAAAAAAAA, you sex offender you, you didn't sign a contract before having sex, you rapist!"

Seriously, I wouldn't call that rape either and say "it's okay". It's their own mistake if they somehow regret it later. Don't fucking drink yourself to a point where you aren't able to judge a situation properly and don't blame the other girl/guy who is probably in the same situation like you.

Fucking victim-culture.

[Lochton]

i would be interested to see the % for each question really. becaise like the example you posted is just stupid and is probably skewing it a lot.

Problem is, I have a feeling it is more or less a flawed survey. I mean, what is their base number? Haven't asked all europeans, reason I don't like threads like this. The number could be from 10.000, 100.000, 1.000 or 1 million to more..

- - - Updated - - -

Wasn't it in the US system someone tried to call out about a 'consent' card? Something about stating full name of both before starting.

[Deleted]

Problem is, I have a feeling it is more or less a flawed survey. I mean, what is their base number? Haven't asked all europeans, reason I don't like threads like this. The number could be from 10.000, 100.000, 1.000 or 1 million to more..

That's one of the lesser concerns, when you poll about 1000 people (chosen smartly) the result should be accurate enough.

Wasn't it in the US system someone tried to call out about a 'consent' card? Something about stating full name of both before starting.

[Raelbo]

Presumption of innocence is not a loophole, it's the basis of a fair trial.

Nice one. First you cherry-pick one sentence, then you twist it around to strawman it into something that clearly it wasn't (you know if you actually consider the rest of the argument I made).

I never said that presumption wasn't the basis of a fair trial. What I said was it could be abused and turned into a loophole. Like for example when people start strawmanning the argument.

I really don't know what your case is, since I actually went to the effort of providing examples of where "presumption of innocence" doesn't apply. Not because I don't believe in the presumption of innocence, but because certain acts are not innocent. You can't get caught with your hand in the proverbial cookie jar and argue presumption of innocence.

If we don't agree on that, then you have no place in our society.

I think you need to look at your own sig again.

[Flarelaine]

[U]As i said previously... word the survey [I]"Do you think its ok to rape somebody

Snip. No matter how you finish that sentence, the answer is no.

[Huulo]

No, no it doesn't, rape culture does not exist, not at all: rape is not normalised, it is not tolerated, it is everywhere one of the worst crimes a person can commit

This feminist idiocy, and people like you that try to argue in favour of it, causes normal people to walk away from the left and vote for Trump

People are tired of paranoid narratives designed to demonise men

We recently had a US presidential candidate admit on tape that he is able to get away with sexually assaulting women. He also admitted, again on tape, to barging in on women and likely girls while changing, and getting away with it. Millions of people were either ok with this or willing to overlook it to vote for him.

I want to foster a better dialogue on this issue, so I have a serious question for you. If we called it something like, "dismissive attitudes regarding sexual assault," rather than rape culture, would that make it easier to discuss? I want to make it clear that this is an issue that negatively impacts men to, as sexual assaults against men are also often dismissed, and it is in no way about demonizing men. This is about facing reality.

[Deleted]

Snip. No matter how you finish that sentence, the answer is no.

So therefore you agree that the survey in the article is disingenuous and biased.

[Deleted]

Nice one. First you cherry-pick one sentence, then you twist it around to strawman it into something that clearly it wasn't (you know if you actually consider the rest of the argument I made).

I understand what you mean and I've read your arguments, all of them, and you did a good job to submit borderline situations where I do sympathize with the accuser.

We must agree however that presumption of innocence is an inalienable right, or we'll always be in disagreement from that point onward.

If that is an inalienable right, then we must accept that in borderline situations we'll side with the accused and dismiss the case.

None of this is specific to rape, or any other crime.

I think you need to look at your own sig again.

Sorry that was an unfortunate way to express myself, I've already changed that shortly after but seems you didn't see the update.

[Flarelaine]

So therefore you agree that the survey in the article is disingenuous and biased.

Absolutely. Disingenious at the least (I'm not looking for malice when incompetence is sufficient explanation). I'm quite ready to argue that there are lots of rape apologists in Europe, but those numbers are staggering. Unfortunately, the article is behind a sodding paywall so I wasn't able to see their sources, but I'm questioning their methods. When it comes to a topic that invites such a mincing of words, surveys need to be worded impeccably.

[Zelorra]

90% don't even know the meaning of the word "acceptable"...

[Huulo]

Except that's a strawman. The objective of highlighting rape culture isn't to re-brand presumption of innocence. It's about changing our culture such that presumption of innocence becomes a far more difficult loophole to hide behind.

For example, someone gets horribly intoxicated and wakes up the next morning and realises someone else had sex with them the night before. The accused claims since the other person slurred something that vaguely sounded like a yes, they assumed that consent was given, and since the person was semi-unconscious and didn't object to anything, then they simply had their way with them in whichever way they wanted.

Now any reasonable person should be able to look at this scenario and recognise that this is fucked up in so many ways. Yet presumption of innocence protects the very obvious rapist. That is not to say that the solution is to simply assume guilt though. A more rational solution is to change the law such that knowingly having sex with a heavily intoxicated person you lose the right to presumption of innocence.

This is hardly unprecedented. If you are walking down the street and happen across a home with it's front door wide open, and you enter the house and see the owner is completely intoxicated and you tell him that you'd like to take his stuff, no judge in the world is going to give you the presumption of innocence when you get caught. Even if you were an invited guest to his house, you still wouldn't be able to argue that it's ok to just take his stuff because (according to you) he said yes while drunk, especially if you were the one who brought the liquor that got him intoxicated in the first place....

This is about changing the presumption of consent, not about changing the presumption of innocence. It's about changing the attitude of people from "hey, there's a 1% chance he/she would have given consent had he/she been semi-sober so it's ok to take advantage" to "unless I am at least 99% sure that consent would have been given it's not ok to take advantage".

This is a very good description of how sexual assaults often happen on college campuses. I can see why some people who haven't thought about this much before might be confused though. A lot of people on this thread are asking questions like, "you mean I have to get some sort of legal contract or else sex is rape?" Not exactly. Going back to the analogy about taking someone's stuff, if they clearly and enthusiastically told you you could, then you have consent. If you're ever unclear about consent, stop and ask yourself, is this person enthused about what they're doing, or are they being pressured or perhaps unaware of what's happening?

Also, might be worth checking out the first chart in this link:

http://www.familyplanning.org.nz/new...sent-look-like