A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Ielenia]

Erm Wrong. You discover stuff that already exists. For example, one of your discoveries is a book about Draenor engineering. Kind of hard to invent a book that was written by someone else...

Another discovery is a shield generator that's also sold at a vendor. A couple of your discoveries are old engineering devices from Cataclysm and WotLK.

You're not inventing anything, hence why its called "Discovery" and not "Invention".

And you completely ignore the fact that it flies in front of your "engineers must use schematics" argument too.

How would they have a schematic if they're inventing the device?

You do know they don't "invent" everything they build, right?

Headcanon at its finest folks! So if its not there we get to make it up as we go along eh?

You do know that, if it's not clearly stated in the lore, you cannot say for certain if a certain scenario happened or didn't happen, right? Yet you, despite admitting you know nothing of the sort being written in the lore:

there's nothing to my knowledge in the lore that says a group of Engineers reversed engineered tech found in Storm Peaks.

You somehow can claim "as a fact" that no one did it.

Um, considering that the canon says that Mekkatorque and Blackfuse invented various things, its safe to say that they're not using schematics.

So engineers don't need schematics. Thanks for clearing that up.

Since you're outright ignoring the evidence, I guess you're going to be waiting a very long time.

"Because I, Teriz, say so!"(tm) is evidence of nothing. You're using software and gameplay limitations to create lore limitations that simply do not exist.

[Teriz]

And you completely ignore the fact that it flies in front of your "engineers must use schematics" argument too.

Yet still shows that they don't invent anything.....

You do know they don't "invent" everything they build, right?

Can you point to something Mekkatorque or Blackfuse use that they didn't invent themselves?

You do know that, if it's not clearly stated in the lore, you cannot say for certain if a certain scenario happened or didn't happen, right? Yet you, despite admitting you know nothing of the sort being written in the lore:

You somehow can claim "as a fact" that no one did it.

I can say for certain that novice engineers never reverse engineered titan constructs since such an event would have a cascading effect on the game itself. Again, as of Legion the only Azerothian who has been capable of reverse engineering titan technology is Blackfuse. If you find another example from lore, please let me know.

So engineers don't need schematics. Thanks for clearing that up.

Engineers on the level of Blackfuse and Mekkatorque don't need schematics. Unfortunately the profession engineers are nowhere close to that level of proficiency, nor will they ever will be. It's like saying one day a Warrior who practices Enchanting will be on the same level of Khadgar or Medivh.

"Because I, Teriz, say so!"(tm) is evidence of nothing. You're using software and gameplay limitations to create lore limitations that simply do not exist.

As I stated before;

It doesn't require an ever evolving computer program to perform. All it would require is for the profession engineer to be able to create complex machines without regrants or schematics, without the need to pay a trainer, those devices to be capable of potentially destroying relevant (at character level) threats, and for those devices to be able to upgrade as the character does.

In short, they would have to become class abilities. For example, the Tinker doesn't need to compile various regrants together in order to construct a turret, he just creates it in a matter of seconds using scrap material. Since that Tinker is a genius level inventor, that device upgrades instantly as the character upgrades. There is no need to collect regrants or learn a new schematic, the Tinker is able to construct new, more advanced devices instinctively. Further their machines/creations would be far more advanced and efficient than the toys and trinkets of the Engineering profession, symbolized by far lower cooldowns, unlimited supplies, and far higher damage levels.

A character like that would be a far closer player representation of Mekkatorque than a Warrior roaming around looking for screws and cogs to put together a rocket belt that has a chance to explode as soon as he uses it.

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tinkers would not prevent engineers from making.

Guns for hunters(and possibly tinkers)
Goggles
Mounts
Pets
Toys
gliders
blingtron,
and anything else i am missing.

Exactly, which is why Ielenia's argument is stupid.

[Thimagryn]

Except I have, when I showed instances of Engineering "discovering" new things to make.

You Discover a Recipe. If you find blueprints for a Sawed-off Cranial Cannon and make one, you didn't invent it. I don't understand how you can confuse this when the lore is right there in the gameplay.

Why not? Are you saying that Magni Bronzebeard has some kind of unique "special snowflake" talent that allows him, and no other blacksmith in the world, to forge weapons of legendary power?

Because crafting legendary weapons is not exclusive to Blacksmithing. A Death Knight who doesn't have Blacksmithing can create a powerful weapon like Shadowmourne. Correlation =/= Causation, as you should very well know. Mekkatorque made the Deeprun Tram and he knows Engineering, but it doesn't mean all Engineers can create the Deeprun Tram. That's something a unique special snowflake character like Mekkatorque can only do, because he's the High Tinker.

If you headcanon your way into saying any engineer can make Deeprun Tram because that's what they do, then why don't the Tauren Engineers have it already? Why isn't technology all around the world considering EVERY race has Engineering profession?

[Traveler Voltin]

Why does Ielenia even care?

[Ielenia]

Can you point to something Mekkatorque or Blackfuse use that they didn't invent themselves?

Blackfuse didn't invent the shredders, for example. Or crawler mines, for that matter. Also, Mekkatorque didn't invent the mech he pilots during the Broken Shore event.

It doesn't require an ever evolving computer program to perform. All it would require is for the profession engineer to be able to create complex machines

You do know that, for us (players) to craft something, we would have to select an item to craft from a list of possible options, right?

without regrants or schematics,

What, you want tinkers to not be a tech class, but actually mages who can literally make things appear from thin air without using reagents?

without the need to pay a trainer,

Discovery!

those devices to be capable of potentially destroying relevant (at character level) threats, and for those devices to be able to upgrade as the character does.

And again you state that because of gameplay limitations, it means that in the lore, engineer items barely even damage critters.

In short, they would have to become class abilities.

Yes, thank you for reminding me that you believe gameplay limitations = limitations in the lore.

[BedlamBros]

+The ability to turn into a mechanical, which grants certain benefits/downsides in WoW such as being immune from Fear, Bleeds, and Drains, and the inability to be healed, yet the ability to be repaired. (Robo-Goblin)
+The ability to pilot a mech during combat. (Robo-Goblin)
+The ability to collect scrap parts from expired machines to restore resources or empower yourself. (Break it Down)
+The ability to rapidly upgrade machines to fit a combat situation and enhance their capabilities. (multiple abilities in WC3 and HotS)
+The ability to instantly construct a factory that produces robots that fight for the Tinker. (Pocket Factory)
+The ability to construct and use a rapidly expanding laser that increases damage over time. (Deth Lazor)
+Gravity Weaponry that pulls targets towards the center, damaging them. (Grav-O-Bomb)

Aren't those Heroes of the Storm abilities?

Why would those abilities exist in WoW?

[Kiradyn]

Yes, thank you for reminding me that you believe gameplay limitations = limitations in the lore.

Isn't gameplay a reflection of the lore itself? Seems kind of odd to argue that gameplay and lore have no connection whatsoever.

[Teri]

Isn't gameplay a reflection of the lore itself? Seems kind of odd to argue that gameplay and lore have no connection whatsoever.

Written lore is usually far more fluid as it has more freedom, but imo a Class in a game is always limited to game-mechanics and balance and viability.

I thought this thread is about a theoritical future class in a game since it's not in a Lore section so game rules will always apply.

As far as the argument of invention, maybe they can follow the new hearthstone Kazakus card (create your own spell) system a bit where you choose a cost and multiple effects out of 3 choices each.

Spells can be fairly unique that way but the many hundreds of possibility would make it hard to balance in terms of avoiding cookie cutter builds all using the few "best" ones for situations.

Even so hearthstone went very far on the whole "mech" aspect of the WoW universe (canon or not) and even had an expansion called goblin vs gnomes in the past, and in that context I see it far more fun to see Blizzard experiment there then pigeonhole a few races into a limited wow class as it will never be as diverse.

And even there it has "limitations" like Flame Leviathan for example is a mech, but mage card, they had to "balance" for that as well as we all know in WoW it has nothing to do with purely mages in Ulduar and far more related to Titan keeper/Iron Dwarf defensive systems instead.

Same reason the new upcoming brawler guild is considered non-canon they can more freely design for it.

[Ginantonicus]

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

I thought something similar before the release of Legion. I thought we would see classes have abilities removed (eg Warlock) and then next expansion we would see DH released. As we know that didn't happen. It sets precedence. Your argument is that there is overlap but we have seen Blizz remove the overlap and release the class at the same time.

Of course it has to be high-tech. Otherwise you can point at a simple wind mill on a backwater Gilnean settlement and say "look, technology!"

In TBC there was pumping stations in Zangermarsh. The Consortium had Greenhouses made with some sort of shield. WolK, Ulduar and the Flame Leviathan as well as the Train and Mimron come to mind. Just a few examples.

Technology is in the game already. Since the release of DH the overlap argument has become unreliable as overlap can be removed at the release of a Tech class. The questions needing to be asked is what dose Blizz gain in releasing a tech class.

[Ielenia]

Isn't gameplay a reflection of the lore itself? Seems kind of odd to argue that gameplay and lore have no connection whatsoever.

Consider that your character can run around, for literally hours, non-top, while carrying a total of five huge backpacks completely stuffed with lead. Plus wearing a full set of plate armor. Now consider that this very character can mount a horse (that suddenly spawns underneath you, no matter where you are, as long as it's open skies) that can take you anywhere without ever getting tired.

Consider that your character never has to drink or eat to live. Consider that your character kill very fearsome dragons, like Nefarian, with a single swing of the weapon, but needs a few weapon swings to kill a simple owlcat. Consider that your character can actually instantly forget a whole set of abilities, while at the same time instantly learning a whole new set of skills.

Gameplay is rarely a reflection of lore itself.

[Teriz]

You do know that, for us (players) to craft something, we would have to select an item to craft from a list of possible options, right?

Not if it's a class. A class would have a toolbar with abilities, not a list of craft able items. For example if the tech class is firing a missile, it just presses the ability button and fires the missile. No need to look for raw materials, no need to craft more missiles.

What, you want tinkers to not be a tech class, but actually mages who can literally make things appear from thin air without using reagents?

No different than Hunters who can fire endless amounts of arrows and bullets without reagents.

Discovery!

Which doesn't occur until you reach level 90+ and effects about 7 items.

And again you state that because of gameplay limitations, it means that in the lore, engineer items barely even damage critters.

Yes, since gameplay is my main interaction with the lore of the game. Since there are NPCs that can use technology that can actually do real damage to other characters, it is clear that the technology my character is getting through the profession is far different than the technology some NPCs are using.

Yes, thank you for reminding me that you believe gameplay limitations = limitations in the lore.

You don't believe that? Warriors can't transform into Storm Crows and fly around the place, or cast Blizzard or Flamstrike on a mob.

Those are gameplay limitations that come from limitations in the lore.

[Teriz]

Aren't those Heroes of the Storm abilities?

Why would those abilities exist in WoW?

There is precedent for HotS abilities appearing in WoW. Because of that it is possible that if Blizzard created this class, they could use abilities from that source.

[Joodoc]

As the poster above me (Ielenia) mentioned, a support class would break the trinity.
As for a Necromancer, it sounds just like the "class fantsy" of demonology warlocks in legion, with some inspiration from Unholy DKs
Besides, it would need 3 specs. I don't see them doing that with Necromancer without basically just stealing from warlocks and dks. (Warlocks don't need another spec stolen)
The specs I see as viable would then be: A. Tank, completely new, tanking with the pet, but then again, pet AI is awful. (Or turning into a giant undead yourself, like meta from dh) B. Summoning-style. Like demonology. C. Spreading diseases like an unholy dk, or affli warlock.

Assuming they need 3 specs is foolish, as we now have DH with only two specs. Thus they likely only need 2 specs. I couldn't see them making necromancer a healer(no sense) but I could see them being a sort of tank, where they summon a monstrosity to tank, and summon smaller minions to absorb hits or w/e, and maybe ome can sacrifice themselves as a sort of armor for the monstrosity. Isn't the main fantasy, but I could see it.

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Consider that your character can run around, for literally hours, non-top, while carrying a total of five huge backpacks completely stuffed with lead. Plus wearing a full set of plate armor. Now consider that this very character can mount a horse (that suddenly spawns underneath you, no matter where you are, as long as it's open skies) that can take you anywhere without ever getting tired.

Consider that your character never has to drink or eat to live. Consider that your character kill very fearsome dragons, like Nefarian, with a single swing of the weapon, but needs a few weapon swings to kill a simple owlcat. Consider that your character can actually instantly forget a whole set of abilities, while at the same time instantly learning a whole new set of skills.

Gameplay is rarely a reflection of lore itself.

Gameplay is OFTEN a REFLECTION of lore, not an exact matchup. There are some things that are ignored because they aren't fun. but the differences in classes, the class fantasies, are a reflection of lore.

Also as for our reference, going back and killing Nefarion doesn't happen according to Lore, we killed him once, back when it was hard. The only reason we can still kill him still is gameplay limitations(game would be very boring if you coudl only kill each boss once).

The backpack issue is simply because it isn't fun to have to worry about weight(though you do forget, our heros are the cream of the crop at this point, running around in plate isn't all that farfetched, we have all sorts of magical enhancements, training, and experience behind us).

As for the mount, the theory is you're calling it to you, but people don't want to wait that long for it to show up, so it is basically instant.

There are limitations to the game based off of what is fun, because after all, it is a game, it has to be fun. But they still reflect the lore as best as they can while keeping it fun.

[PiggyT]

DH is so dull.
Give us a class that use super-long-range-75-yards rockets to bomb the hell out of the enemies.
Or hammer down a giant robot that can take in all the damages, even better, mount on it during the battle.
Or transforming the tinkerer itself into an absolutely destroying helicopter that rains justice from above.

The imagination of tinker is endless!

[Ielenia]

Not if it's a class. A class would have a toolbar with abilities, not a list of craft able items. For example if the tech class is firing a missile, it just presses the ability button and fires the missile. No need to look for raw materials, no need to craft more missiles.

Let me put it in a way you understand: we, the players, would always have to select an item out of a list, right? Whether that list is an ability list of crafting list. "Tech classes" would still have to scrounge up materials to make their arsenal, regardless if gameplay reflects that or not. It's how it happens in the lore. Or are you going to claim, for example, that a Hunter can pull infinite traps out of their pockets?

No different than Hunters who can fire endless amounts of arrows and bullets without reagents.

There is a huge difference between a handful of arrows or bullets, to missiles, "deth lazorz", mechs, etc. And I do mean "huge".

Which doesn't occur until you reach level 90+ and effects about 7 items.

Irrelevant.

Yes,

Then you are just objectively wrong. Gameplay is rarely representative of lore.

You don't believe that? Warriors can't transform into Storm Crows and fly around the place, or cast Blizzard or Flamstrike on a mob.

Those are gameplay limitations that come from limitations in the lore.

So... Two pandaren, lived their entire lives in the Wandering Isle, then leave for Azeroth, but one goes to the Horde, the other to the Alliance, and suddenly they cannot understand what they are saying to each other? How is that possible, in the lore?

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Gameplay is OFTEN a REFLECTION of lore, not an exact matchup.

Actually, quite the opposite. Gameplay is, more often than not, not a reflextion of lore, much less an exact match-up. For every instance where gameplay follows lore, there are two or three examples of where gameplay goes against lore.

Also as for our reference, going back and killing Nefarion doesn't happen according to Lore, we killed him once, back when it was hard. The only reason we can still kill him still is gameplay limitations(game would be very boring if you coudl only kill each boss once).

Another gameplay limitation that doesn't follow lore.

The backpack issue is simply because it isn't fun to have to worry about weight(though you do forget, our heros are the cream of the crop at this point, running around in plate isn't all that farfetched, we have all sorts of magical enhancements, training, and experience behind us).

Isn't it farfetched to imagine a hero going in full plate armor running around? Of course not. Is it too farfetched a hero, in full plate, carrying a backpack full of mineral ores, one backpack holding a full set of armor or two, another backpack full of trinkets and other heavy objects looted from the mobs killed... and still be able to run from Silvermoon all the way down to Booty Bay without stopping even once to drink or eat, and arrives at its destination showing no strain at all? Yes, it's farfetched.

As for the mount, the theory is you're calling it to you, but people don't want to wait that long for it to show up, so it is basically instant.

Another gameplay limitation that doesn't follow the lore.

There are limitations to the game based off of what is fun, because after all, it is a game, it has to be fun. But they still reflect the lore as best as they can while keeping it fun.

It doesn't matter if said limitation exists to streamline boring stuff away, because of technical limitations of the program, or simply because developers wanted to limit players. If a certain gameplay feature or limitation goes against the lore, it goes against the lore.

[Traveler Voltin]

i am starting to wish i actually finished my tinker concept i started back when i was working on an expansion idea.
4 specs. 2 specs had really cool names.

[Jtree]

So my art skills are non-existent, but my imagination has been working for the last few days and I just had to hack together an idea in Gimp.

If Blizz ever does give us a mech-driving tinker class, I can fully see them implementing models at least loosely based on famous mech franchise. Thus, I give you a Goblin ranged DPS "Mad Wolf".

[Teriz]

Let me put it in a way you understand: we, the players, would always have to select an item out of a list, right? Whether that list is an ability list of crafting list. "Tech classes" would still have to scrounge up materials to make their arsenal, regardless if gameplay reflects that or not. It's how it happens in the lore. Or are you going to claim, for example, that a Hunter can pull infinite traps out of their pockets?

Isn't that exactly what Hunters do in the game? Last I checked my Hunter never ran out of traps, arrows, bullets, etc.

There is a huge difference between a handful of arrows or bullets, to missiles, "deth lazorz", mechs, etc. And I do mean "huge".

I would hardly consider an endless supply of arrows, sidewinders, bullets, explosive shots, black arrows, grenades, etc. to be a "handful".

Irrelevant.

Quite relevant, since it isn't a standard within the profession. Further you still have to collect the reagents for whatever you're making. I'm sure the raid group will be quite patient as you transverse the globe looking for materials to build a couple of inefficient land mines.

Then you are just objectively wrong. Gameplay is rarely representative of lore.

So then lore is fairly pointless since gameplay is always king. I'm fine with that line of argumentation, since gameplay-wise there's a clear difference between a class and a profession.

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So my art skills are non-existent, but my imagination has been working for the last few days and I just had to hack together an idea in Gimp.

If Blizz ever does give us a mech-driving tinker class, I can fully see them implementing models at least loosely based on famous mech franchise. Thus, I give you a Goblin ranged DPS "Mad Wolf".

Cool stuff man. Like the spec name too.

[Polybius]

Why are people still having this argument. Tinkers aren't a good class idea. If you want to play a tinker, play a gnome hunter with Engineering and Mining.

Hunter, Engineering, and Mining are mediocre. You can't shoot rockets for the full duration of combat. You can't use jetpacks, and you can't use a ton of abilities related to Tinkers in Warcraft.

[Ielenia]

Isn't that exactly what Hunters do in the game? Last I checked my Hunter never ran out of traps, arrows, bullets, etc.

Ok. You're definitely playing dumb and you can only be trying to troll, here. Because I honestly doubt anyone could claim to believe Hunters have 'infinite traps/arrows/bullets' in the lore, and not be joking.

I would hardly consider an endless supply of arrows, sidewinders, bullets, explosive shots, black arrows, grenades, etc. to be a "handful".

Scale. Hunter's gadgets are much smaller, much simpler, and much more low-tech, therefore easier to manufacture, than what a tech class would use.

Quite relevant,

It is irrelevant because your first claim was that engineers do not invent, and when proven wrong, you moved the goal posts by saying 'not until level 90 and for just a few items'.

So then lore is fairly pointless since gameplay is always king.

Proven wrong again. Otherwise DHs would be open for all races. All classes would be open for all races. Any race could be of any faction. Yet that isn't the case.