A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Teriz]

This is the biggest point I feel works against Tinkers. Once you limit to Gnomes and Goblins, you kill the entire class concept. It makes the most sense from a lore perspective, but gameplay has proven that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular despite any design and flavour they're given. Gnomes and Goblins aren't unpopular because of lack of uniqueness or awareness. Gnome and Goblin Hunters are given special access to Mech pets. This still hasn't pushed their numbers very high, and they're most likely being rolled by people who are already Gnome/Goblin players. This severely limits the Tinker's demographic.

The second biggest point is how people generally view these diminutive races. It's not that they're unknown or lack specialness. Hearthstone even had an expansion devoted to Gnomes and Goblins (and yet another one with this latest Gadgetzan theme). It works in Hearthstone though because it's silly and whimsical. The races (and by extension, the class as well) will lack seriousness that gives people incentive to drop their main/alts to roll this new class. It's just unfortunate that the race meta is all about the pretty races, to the point where Elves had to be added to the Horde.

If we get a Gnome/Goblin exclusive Tinker, it will have a tough time breaking the meta and becoming a class that stands toe to toe with the rest. Doesn't matter how fun the gameplay is, it will be wasted if people lack a serious investment in the class due to the limited race options.

http://www.warcraftrealms.com/census.php?class=Hunter

This is why a Demon Hunter works and a (gnome/goblin exclusive) Tinker would not. Even if Tinkers become the most popular class for their respective races, it would be tough to break 30k total players, compared to Demon Hunters which already enjoy 80k for each race. Even Monks, as few as they are, have a total of 100k players; 35k Pandaren, 33k Humans and Blood Elves, and 32k for every other race. Imagine if Monks were Pandaren exclusive.

I'm forced to disagree. People play a class first, and race second. People aren't going to avoid a class simply because of the available races. As I said to Ielenia, out of the top 5 classes in terms of population, 3 of them are highly limited in terms of racial choice. Druids are available to 4 races and is second only to Hunters in terms of popularity, and Druids are nipping at their heels. On the other hand, Monks are available to almost all the races, yet it is the least popular class in the game. If popularity depended on the number of available races, Monks would be among the most popular classes in the game. However, the simple reality is that people play class first, and the race is secondary.

So the more important question is what makes Monks unpopular and Druids very popular?

Well for starters, Monks came in late to the game and had to start at level 1 when the level limit was 90. Secondly, they were difficult to play as, and in the early months of the expansion Blizzard kept overhauling and revamping portions of the class. The DPS spec was never a contender for PvP dominance, and was horribly ranked in raids, so no one saw a need to re-roll except people looking for something new. Third, they didn't really bring anything remarkably new to the table except for melee healing, which was always a mess and constantly getting changed. Many people simply saw them as Rogues with a broken healing spec and a solid tanking spec.

We've already discussed why Druids are so popular; They're versatile, unique, easy to level and have special perks that few other classes enjoy. Hunters are popular for similar reasons. It has very little to do with what races are available to them.

I further contend that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular because their class choices don't jive well with their racial identities, making them appear highly silly and outright corny. People laugh and poke fun at the absurdity of Gnome and Goblin Warriors, Death Knights, Warlocks, etc. However, no one was laughing when Gelbin Mekkatorque popped up in that cinematic blowing demons away with his mech suit. Raiders weren't laughing at Siegecrafter Blackfuse either.

Mechs are cool. People associate mechs in WoW with Goblins and Gnomes and still think mechs are cool. You now have a winning combination, ESPECIALLY if you make them a physical ranged class and give them perks like the Druid class. Congratulations; you have just created a class that has the benefits of the most popular classes in the game. Make them contenders in PvP and in raids and people will re-roll to play that class, regardless of the racial choice.

I would also argue that Gnome and Goblin hunter numbers haven't boosted the population for 2 reasons;

1. While Gnomes and Goblins can tame mechanical pets, all races can, so why roll a Goblin or Gnome Hunter for that when all other races can do it?

2. Hunter still doesn't fit the Goblin or Gnome race. This is enhanced by the fact that the Tinker-style abilities are in survival, but the high-tech gun is in beast mastery, while the gun-based talents are in Marksmanship. So while initially you can pretend to be some sort of Hunter/Tinker hybrid, the talents and abilities quickly bring you back down to the reality that you're really a trapper/outdoorsman/Ranger. Hunters will always be most closely aligned with Elves.

As for Gnomes and Goblins in Hearthstone, everything is silly in Hearthstone. They just had a solo adventure about Medivh and Karazhan, and the entire adventure was absolutely silly and ridiculous despite the fact that it revolved around Mages and Demons. I would argue that the recent Gadgetzan expansion is more serious than Karazhan was.

The point is this; Make the class cool and fun to play, and people will play that class despite what races are available for it.

[Thimagryn]

Futhermore, making an expansion relating to them would be an absolute trainwreck

I don't get why people think this way. All you need is one zone in the South Seas to substantiate a Tech class. Hell, you probably don't even need it if Blizz decided to revamp Gnomeregan and Gadgetzan into class hubs.

[Shammyrock]

Blizz tends to tie all its new classes into the theme of the expansion, its a big selling point for them in the build up.

[Thimagryn]

I'm forced to disagree. People play a class first, and race second. People aren't going to avoid a class simply because of the available races.

Do you honestly think that all 100k Monk players out there would have rolled one if Pandarens were their only choice? I think that number would be substantially lower, considering there is a large chunk of the community who has an outward distaste for Pandarens in general. If you took a class like Tinker and made its identity exclusive to Gnomes and Goblins, its popularity would definitely be reflected in kind.

If Engineering was made race exclusive, there would be far fewer people taking it than there are now. It wouldn't be a catalyst for Gnome and Goblin popularity boost.

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Blizz tends to tie all its new classes into the theme of the expansion, its a big selling point for them in the build up.

All you need is one event where Kezan is under threat and the first thing we do is go there to save it, introducing the Tinker class along the way. I don't see how that becomes an 'absolute trainwreck'. It doesn't even matter what the threat is, be it the Naga, the Old Gods or the Zandalari Trolls. It's no different than how Worgen and Goblins were introduced to an unrelated Deathwing threat, or how Monks were introduced to an unrelated Garrosh threat. Hell, Garrosh using the Sha was written for the sole purpose of having some loose ties to Pandaria. We had a whole other expansion showing how he was able to mobilize a completely different army without any need of the Sha.

[Teriz]

Do you honestly think that all 100k Monk players out there would have rolled one if Pandarens were their only choice? I think that number would be substantially lower, considering there is a large chunk of the community who has an outward distaste for Pandarens in general. If you took a class like Tinker and made its identity exclusive to Gnomes and Goblins, its popularity would definitely be reflected in kind.

I believe that if you want to play as a monk, you're going to play a monk regardless of what the racial choice is. No one says "I want to play as a Druid, but I can't play one because they're not Humans or Blood Elves..." Again, I know people who despise elves, but rolled Demon Hunters anyway because they look awesome.

If Engineering was made race exclusive, there would be far fewer people taking it than there are now. It wouldn't be a catalyst for Gnome and Goblin popularity boost.

Probably not because a profession is for making money and boosting stats. Several professions do that. Some do it better than Engineering does.

[Ielenia]

People play a class first, and race second.

You are wrong. Not everyone plays 'class first, race second'. Case in point, I play both. I've said before how I deleted my old druid because I couldn't stand how the female worgen transformed voice was. To me, race decision trumps class decision. If there is a class I want to play, but it's not available to the races I like, I'm not playing that race. Simple as that, and I imagine a lot of people are like that. It's the race that will decide how your character will look, sound and act like. And if you don't like how a certain race look, sound and/or act like, you're very unlikely to pick said race, no matter the classes available to it, exclusive or not.

Third, they didn't really bring anything remarkably new to the table except for melee healing,

This statement makes me wonder what exactly would a tech class bring, mechanically, to the game that didn't exist before.

We've already discussed why Druids are so popular; They're versatile, unique, easy to level and have special perks that few other classes enjoy.

I'd also claim the vast lore already existent for the class and being quite the popular units back in WC3 with druids of the fang and talon, being present throughout most, if not all, of the Night Elf campaigns, both on the original game and in the expansion, were heavy influences to their fame.

I further contend that Gnomes and Goblins are unpopular because their class choices don't jive well with their racial identities,

And that argument has been debunked when it's pointed out it's one of many reasons why one would not want said race.

making them appear highly silly and outright corny.

Probably because their overall look is "highly silly and outright corny". Ditto for their voices. And their dances. Giving them a 'tech class' won't make them any less silly or corny.

The point is this; Make the class cool and fun to play, and people will play that class despite what races are available for it.

Make the class cool and fun to play, and people will play that class. Give said class to the two most disliked races in the game, and people will avoid that class.

[Thimagryn]

I believe that if you want to play as a monk, you're going to play a monk regardless of what the racial choice is. No one says "I want to play as a Druid, but I can't play one because they're not Humans or Blood Elves..." Again, I know people who despise elves, but rolled Demon Hunters anyway because they look awesome.

Actually, a lot of people do say that about Druids, and also say that about Demon Hunters. As popular as they currently are, they would be even more popular if accessible to other races. If Blizzard opened up access to Orcs and Humans next patch, the numbers will only go up. Of course, that doesn't need to happen, considering they're already popular classes.

And if we made Mages or Warlocks Gnome-exclusive, I know people who would straight up abandon their class.

[Teriz]

You are wrong. Not everyone plays 'class first, race second'. Case in point, I play both. I've said before how I deleted my old druid because I couldn't stand how the female worgen transformed voice was. To me, race decision trumps class decision. If there is a class I want to play, but it's not available to the races I like, I'm not playing that race. Simple as that, and I imagine a lot of people are like that. It's the race that will decide how your character will look, sound and act like. And if you don't like how a certain race look, sound and/or act like, you're very unlikely to pick said race, no matter the classes available to it, exclusive or not.

I highly doubt that. A race is simply the coat of paint. You're primarily playing a character because of their class.

This statement makes me wonder what exactly would a tech class bring, mechanically, to the game that didn't exist before.

Well the problem with Monks is that they were melee at a stage in the game where people were getting tired of the glut of melee classes. Again, their main claim to fame was melee healing, but that aspect failed as Blizzard kept changing the healing spec. The DPS spec never took off in PvE or PvP, and the tanking spec didn't come into its own until the end of the expansion.

At this stage in WoW people really want a physical ranged class, and a class different from anything else in the game. A technology class, especially one utilizing mech combat would fit the bill.

I'd also claim the vast lore already existent for the class and being quite the popular units back in WC3 with druids of the fang and talon, being present throughout most, if not all, of the Night Elf campaigns, both on the original game and in the expansion, were heavy influences to their fame.

I'm afraid it goes a bit beyond that, since Druids are the most popular class in every race where the Druid class is available.

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Actually, a lot of people do say that about Druids, and also say that about Demon Hunters. As popular as they currently are, they would be even more popular if accessible to other races. If Blizzard opened up access to Orcs and Humans next patch, the numbers will only go up. Of course, that doesn't need to happen, considering they're already popular classes.

Well sure it would, because the thing that makes Druids cool and unique would be still in place, provided that Blizzard continued with unique forms for each race. Blizzard could still accomplish that with two more additions to the Druid class.

However, if Blizzard suddenly made Druids available to every race, and forced everyone to have the same bear, cat, moonkin, and flight form in order to save art assets, the Druid numbers would begin to drop rapidly. Part of Druid popularity is that feeling of uniqueness that having a small number of available races brings to the table.

And if we made Mages or Warlocks Gnome-exclusive, I know people who would straight up abandon their class.

Well yeah because Mages and Warlocks are more associated with Humans and Blood Elves, and have been for years. Mainly because of Medivh, Jaina, Khadgar, Kael'theus, and Dalaran. I mean when you teleport to Dalaran, you see Blood Elves and Humans everywhere, so if you want to be a Mage, it makes sense to be a Human or a Blood Elf. The Mage and Warlock population numbers largely bear that out.

Again, I think the major problem is that the majority of prominent Gnomes and Goblins are heavily associated with machines, yet have no class outlet for that association. This isn't helped by the fact that when you start a game as a Gnome or Goblin, you're put into this technology wonderland (or slum if you're a goblin) looking like a medieval cosplayer.

[Ielenia]

I highly doubt that. A race is simply the coat of paint. You're primarily playing a character because of their class.

I'm playing because of both race and class. If I don't like how the race looks, acts and speaks, it doesn't matter if the class I want it's restricted to just said race: I'm just not playing that class.

Also: how dare you be so arrogant and claim you have the right to tell me how I play my own characters?

I'm afraid it goes a bit beyond that, since Druids are the most popular class in every race where the Druid class is available.

Your argument just kind of proves my point. It was the lore and appeal of the class concept, not only being a staple in many table-top fantasy RPG games, but also very prominent in the Warcraft 3 game.

[Thimagryn]

Well sure it would, because the thing that makes Druids cool and unique would be still in place, provided that Blizzard continued with unique forms for each race. Blizzard could still accomplish that with two more additions to the Druid class.

However, if Blizzard suddenly made Druids available to every race, and forced everyone to have the same bear, cat, moonkin, and flight form in order to save art assets, the Druid numbers would begin to drop rapidly. Part of Druid popularity is that feeling of uniqueness that having a small number of available races brings to the table.

No, even if they reused art, the numbers would still go up, not drop. People who play Troll and Worgen Druids aren't simply doing so because of custom art assets, but the ability to do so and play a race that isn't just Night Elves and Tauren. The unique forms is just an added bonus to that. I would actually attribute Druid popularity to your earlier point about classes - the shapeshifting gameplay is arguably the biggest draw of the class. The point is though, how far can the Tinker's gameplay carry it if its choices were limited to unpopular races. I know you think races are just a coat of paint, but half the Horde's entire player base are Blood Elves for more than that reason alone. We know for a fact that without Blood Elves in Vanilla, Alliance populations outnumbered the Horde.

Well yeah because Mages and Warlocks are more associated with Humans and Blood Elves, and have been for years. Mainly because of Medivh, Jaina, Khadgar, Kael'theus, and Dalaran. I mean when you teleport to Dalaran, you see Blood Elves and Humans everywhere, so if you want to be a Mage, it makes sense to be a Human or a Blood Elf. The Mage and Warlock population numbers largely bear that out.

Again, I think the major problem is that the majority of prominent Gnomes and Goblins are heavily associated with machines, yet have no class outlet for that association. This isn't helped by the fact that when you start a game as a Gnome or Goblin, you're put into this technology wonderland (or slum if you're a goblin) looking like a medieval cosplayer.

It depends on what the potential player base of Tinkers will be. If you are correct and we take Druids as the prime example of people choosing the class over the race, then Tinkers could potentially see numbers exceeding that of Monks, reaching 100k total or higher, despite being Gnome and Goblin-centric.

Hoever, Gnome and Goblin populations average 8k and 4.5k per class (respectively) with a height of 16k Gnome Mages and 8k Goblin Shamans. NE and BE average 33-35k per class, with Demon Hunters having a whopping 160k total. Even if Tinkers surpassed the current Gnome/Goblin top classes by 3 times, they couldn't break 75k total players. Hell, even if every Gnome and Goblin of every class rerolled into a Tinker, it wouldn't break 100k.

[Teriz]

I'm playing because of both race and class. If I don't like how the race looks, acts and speaks, it doesn't matter if the class I want it's restricted to just said race: I'm just not playing that class.

Sure you aren't....

Your argument just kind of proves my point. It was the lore and appeal of the class concept, not only being a staple in many table-top fantasy RPG games, but also very prominent in the Warcraft 3 game.

But Tauren, Worgen, and Troll Druids were nowhere to be found in WC3, yet Druid dominates the populations of all three of those races.

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No, even if they reused art, the numbers would still go up, not drop. People who play Troll and Worgen Druids aren't simply doing so because of custom art assets, but the ability to do so and play a race that isn't just Night Elves and Tauren. The unique forms is just an added bonus to that. I would actually attribute Druid popularity to your earlier point about classes - the shapeshifting gameplay is arguably the biggest draw of the class. The point is though, how far can the Tinker's gameplay carry it if its choices were limited to unpopular races.

Like I said, we need to look at why the most popular classes in the game are popular in the first place. It isn't because they're available to all of the most popular classes. Hunters and Druids are different from every other class in the game, and they are very powerful in PvP and PvE. A Tinker class would provide the physical range of the Hunter, and the versatility and uniqueness of the Druid.

I know you think races are just a coat of paint, but half the Horde's entire player base are Blood Elves for more than that reason alone. We know for a fact that without Blood Elves in Vanilla, Alliance populations outnumbered the Horde.

Well again, we should look at WHY something became popular. Blood Elves were the only Horde race to be able to play as Paladins, and Paladins were a very dominant class in early WoW, so clearly that was going to drive up the BE population. However, they were also associated with Mages, and Hunters, which were also fairly popular in Vanilla and TBC.

I mean look at the art from the expansion;




However, I'd be dishonest if I also didn't admit that the fact that they were "pretty elves" also helped their population growth.

It depends on what the potential player base of Tinkers will be. If you are correct and we take Druids as the prime example of people choosing the class over the race, then Tinkers could potentially see numbers exceeding that of Monks, reaching 100k total or higher, despite being Gnome and Goblin-centric.

Hoever, Gnome and Goblin populations average 8k and 4.5k per class (respectively) with a height of 16k Gnome Mages and 8k Goblin Shamans. NE and BE average 33-35k per class, with Demon Hunters having a whopping 160k total. Even if Tinkers surpassed the current Gnome/Goblin top classes by 3 times, they couldn't break 75k total players.

I really think a Tinker class would drive those numbers above what we're currently seeing within the Goblin and Gnome classes. The current classes simply don't reflect either race the way other classes reflect other races.

[Ielenia]

Sure you aren't....

Do not presume you speak for me, nor that you know what I look for in a class or race. You're dangerously close to be considered baiting, Teriz. I'll repeat:

DO NOT PRESUME YOU SPEAK FOR ME, OR THAT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ME ABOUT HOW I PLAY MY OWN CHARACTERS.

But Tauren, Worgen, and Troll Druids were nowhere to be found in WC3, yet Druid dominates the populations of all three of those races.

I am not going to repeat my previous arguments. If you want your question answered, just read my previous posts.

Well again, we should look at WHY something became popular. Blood Elves were the only Horde race to be able to play as Paladins, and Paladins were a very dominant class in early WoW, so clearly that was going to drive up the BE population. However, they were also associated with Mages, and Hunters, which were also fairly popular in Vanilla and TBC.

And, again, you completely ignored the fact High Elves were being requested for a long, long, long time, and 'Blood Elves' were the 'next-best-thing', as they're basically "High Elves for the the Horde"?

[Teriz]

Do not presume you speak for me, nor that you know what I look for in a class or race. You're dangerously close to be considered baiting, Teriz. I'll repeat:

DO NOT PRESUME YOU SPEAK FOR ME, OR THAT YOU KNOW BETTER THAN ME ABOUT HOW I PLAY MY OWN CHARACTERS.

Sorry if I'm not buying your hogwash.

Want a shovel?

And, again, you completely ignored the fact High Elves were being requested for a long, long, long time, and 'Blood Elves' were the 'next-best-thing', as they're basically "High Elves for the the Horde"?

And yet by far the most popular and dominant class among Blood Elves was Paladin (until the introduction of Demon Hunters), a class that had zero lore associated with Blood Elves until WoW.

[Ielenia]

Sorry if I'm not buying your hogwash.

"A person acts in a way you don't approve. Surely the person is lying." How arrogant can a person be to presume to tell others how they should play their own characters.

And yet by far the most popular and dominant class among Blood Elves was Paladin (until the introduction of Demon Hunters), a class that had zero lore associated with Blood Elves until WoW.

Probably because Paladins were already a well-established class in the game already, and was a class missing from the Horde roster until BC?

[Thimagryn]

Like I said, we need to look at why the most popular classes in the game are popular in the first place. It isn't because they're available to all of the most popular classes.

Evidenced by the Monk. One third is Pandaren, should be obvious. One third is comprised solely of Humans and Blood Elves, the most popular races of each faction. The final third is every other race combined. There's no compelling reason why Humans and Blood Elves would represent such a large part of the Monk. It totally makes sense for Pandarens, but there's nothing inherrently Human or Blood Elven about Monks.

I really think a Tinker class would drive those numbers above what we're currently seeing within the Goblin and Gnome classes. The current classes simply don't reflect either race the way other classes reflect other races.

I don't doubt that they would drive those numbers up, but that number can't compete with any other class, even if we tripled the gnome/goblin populations. 'An increase of 1% is still an increase' is pretty much all I can say here.

Of course I could be totally wrong, and Blizzard intentionally designs a Tinker for the sole purpose of equalizing the population, boosting the Gnome and Goblin numbers. I simply don't think it's realistic that they would aim so low. That's a lot of resources dedicated to marketing to the bottom 5% of the audience.

[Teriz]

Probably because Paladins were already a well-established class in the game already, and was a class missing from the Horde roster until BC?

Paladins were also a very popular class, and a very strong class coming into TBC. Blood Elves being the only race that could be Paladins on the Horde was a major factor in driving up their population numbers.

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Evidenced by the Monk. One third is Pandaren, should be obvious. One third is comprised solely of Humans and Blood Elves, the most popular races of each faction. The final third is every other race combined. There's no compelling reason why Humans and Blood Elves would represent such a large part of the Monk. It totally makes sense for Pandarens, but there's nothing inherrently Human or Blood Elven about Monks.

Well there is in the real world, via popular media; Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, Jet Li, etc. are all inspirations for Monk-style classes. So people choosing Human or BE Monks are simply choosing a more human looking avatar for the Monk class instead of Pandaren. However, the Pandaren win out because in Warcraft, Chen Stormstout is the most visible avatar for the Monk class, and the Pandaren starting zone is very Monk-friendly.

I don't doubt that they would drive those numbers up, but that number can't compete with any other class, even if we tripled the gnome/goblin populations. 'An increase of 1% is still an increase' is pretty much all I can say here.

Of course I could be totally wrong, and Blizzard intentionally designs a Tinker for the sole purpose of equalizing the population, boosting the Gnome and Goblin numbers. I simply don't think it's realistic that they would aim so low. That's a lot of resources dedicated to marketing to the bottom 5% of the audience.

Everything depends on the actual class itself. If the class is strong, unique, and awesome to play as, people aren't going to avoid it simply because its Gnomes and Goblins.

I suppose Ielenia would, but I doubt the majority of players would.

[Thimagryn]

Everything depends on the actual class itself. If the class is strong, unique, and awesome to play as, people aren't going to avoid it simply because its Gnomes and Goblins.

People avoided an entire expansion just because of Pandarens. Just saying.

[Ielenia]

Everything depends on the actual class itself. If the class is strong, unique, and awesome to play as, people aren't going to avoid it simply because its Gnomes and Goblins.

No, it doesn't. It also depends on the races allowed to pick said class.

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People avoided an entire expansion just because of Pandarens. Just saying.

QFT /10chars

[Teriz]

People avoided an entire expansion just because of Pandarens. Just saying.

According to this MoP sold on par with other expansions.

[Rhamses]

This statement makes me wonder what exactly would a tech class bring, mechanically, to the game that didn't exist before.

Ranged tanking?