A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Ielenia]

And it's defenitely how tinkers have been portrayed in the Warcraft universe on multiple occasions:

First picture is not Warcraft. It's Heroes of the Storm.

[Thimagryn]

First picture is not Warcraft. It's Heroes of the Storm.

Which is still Warcraft, just not canonical. It's still relevant to the core image and presentation of a class. Even the current Demon Hunter gameplay is heavily influenced by Heroes of the Storm Illidan's gameplay, especially the dashing attacks.

[Louz]

You didn't actually read anything, did you? Do you just irrationally hate the word "MoP"?

Tinkers won't happen because there won't be a tinker-themed xpac, and they're not going to design an expac specifically just to introduce tinkers. There's the really simple version that even you could understand.

Nah, pandas were my favorite expac next to legion.

However, to claim "they won't do that cuz this and that" is sheer bullshit. Tauren paladins were out of nowhere just as pandas - literal memes until their introduction in the game, when they suddenly made sense soloely based on a story that was made up to rationalize them.

Just make my point clear - if blizz wants to add something, they will make up a story to make it fit. Even if it means retconning half of the lore that was established decades ago.

The argument that "they have no place" is invalid. Period.

[Deleted]

We don't need a new class period

[Pull My Finger]

Okay, let me put my skills as an amateur writer to use and try and sell you this.

OK that's cool stuff, but you can't call it Tinker. It needs a non-sissy name.

[-Joker-]

We don't need a new class period

We didn't need pandas either... but

[Knyx]

So the main reasoning behind not introducing the Tinker class is because it's roll is filled by the engineer profession, right? But in my opinion the two are not one in the same. Take Warriors, for instance. Warrior class fantasy is all about two things: Armor and Weapons. Yet the Warrior doesn't forge their armor and weapons, the Blacksmiths do. A warrior CAN be a blacksmith, but it isn't necessary. The engineers only supply the gear and tools tinkers use and modify, its up to the tinker to use those tools effectively in the heat of battle.

So a Tinkerer is a class that, in fact, does not tinker, but uses things they buy from other people? At that point you might as well just call it a Consumer.

[-Joker-]

So a Tinkerer is a class that, in fact, does not tinker, but uses things they buy from other people? At that point you might as well just call it a Consumer.

Should just call it a pilot since the Tinkerer pilots a suit with tons of gadgets most of the time.

[McNeil]

I think a tinker is perfectly possible, and I don't think that the sillyness or not having to fit the theme of an expansion is a good excuse to dismiss the idea. You can very much play them in both WC3 and HotS, using unique abilities being produced by their mech suits. Even in WoW you've seen how badass Mekkatorque looked like during the assault on the Broken Isles, although player suits should be a lot smaller.

I'd say that a South Sea expansion would fit the best to include this race, considering that all the goblin tradeports like the Undermine would be released and they would be the ones inventing new suits. Its a cool idea, I'd prefer it over demon hunters any day.

[Selastan]

So a Tinkerer is a class that, in fact, does not tinker, but uses things they buy from other people? At that point you might as well just call it a Consumer.

"To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" ~Carl Sagan

You can't make EVERYTHING. Just because you didn't make the bolts or the welder doesn't mean that you didn't make it. You can build yourself a decent gaming PC but you don't have to make the processor or motherboard from raw materials.

[FelPlague]

i dont like how people want more classes, when blizz allready has hard enough time balancing 10, 11, then 12 classes

[Ravingmad]

This topic is getting old. Do we really need another class in WoW?
Im not saying it wont be cool, but the Survival Spec already have the "trap/engineer"-ish touch.
But I think people have more Robot/Turret/Bombs in mind when thinking about the Tinker.

And theres no "famous" tinker in WoW, all other classes are represented from Warcraft 1-2-3 series.
RiP Tinker class. I'd rather balance/change the existing classes better than having a new class.

[Kaneth]

i dont like how people want more classes, when blizz allready has hard enough time balancing 10, 11, then 12 classes

Difficulty to balance isn't a reason to not add more classes into the game. It's pretty much a myth that class balance, at least the way we want it, can ever truly happen. Especially since Blizzard insists on basically reinventing each class and even specs with every expansion pre-patch. Which is one of the ways Blizzard can keep folks logging in for over a decade now.

Aside from the Demon Hunter, I don't believe there has been a more asked for class outside of the Tinker. Shadow Hunter/Dark Ranger might be pretty close though. It's actually a little surprising that the Tinker still doesn't exist as a playable class considering the massive amount of steampunk like tech that has been featured in the game, and how much access we've had to it via different quests/events since WotLK.

[Kolvarg]

Comparisons with IRL modern-day things like that doesn't work because, unlike in WoW where technology access is sparse, here in the real world you have ready access to technology anywhere. Each city has, at the very least, a dozen or so places you can take your car to be fixed, for example.

And again, your assumption that technology and access to tecnology gadgets and repairs is sparse is just that, an assumption. Who's to say that with the addition of Tinkers there won't be workshops built on settlements (just like blacksmiths and what not)?

Honestly, they don't even need to. Following your in-game logic style, let's use your own numbers: "14% of WoW's character population uses engineering". There's thousands of characters in the world. Statistically speaking, if there are 8 characters in one city, 1 of them will be an Engineer. And access to cities is very easy and quick, as there are several means of transportation and teleportation to towns.

So you're saying that Fury Warriors should be able to pick any profession? Ok, maybe mining, but that's it? On a more serious note, you do know you don't stop to craft gems and trinkets in the middle of a battle, right? And Fury Warriors, just because they're ones that rely on brute force and rage in battle, can't do work that requires calm and patience and precision outside of battle.

No, I'm saying exactly that Fury Warriors CAN pick any profession, even if it doesn't match their combat style or temperament their lore tells us. Lore-wise, they are described as berserkers and known to have in general a rough temperament.

That's irrelevant.

No, it's not irrelevant. If the lore is relevant to deny the possible existance of non-engineer tinkers, it's also relevant to deny or prove the possible existance of a fury warrior jewelcrafter.

I suppose it could be that, but, to me, that would kill much of the potential epicness of the class.

How, exactly? Laser machinery, explosives, guns, exoskeletons, steam/mecha suits, defense turrets... all these can be done in a way that are not engineer-exclusive, and in fact exist in the game to be used by non-engineers one way or another. What engineer-specific gadgets specifically do you suggest would be that more exciting and epic, and why?

I am not forgetting that. But I'm also not naive enough to imply that swords, guns and other white weapons out there are at the same technology level as a mech, or a guided missile, or a smart explosive mine, etc.

From the WoW official website:

Warriors combine strength, leadership, and a vast knowledge of arms and armor to wreak havoc in glorious combat.

Obviously, a vast knowledge of arms and armor does not mean warriors know how to craft arms and armor. It means they have a vast knowledge on how to use them effectively, and on how to deal with their shortcomings.

Yes, they are at a different technology level. But both of them have very different usage/operating knowledge to crafting knowledge.

That doesn't counter my point, because you still get the blacksmiths and other vendors, very rarely seeing an engineer vendor, which greatly implies, especially when coupled at how the world is presented to us, that while technology does exist, it's nowhere near as common as magic nor as easy to understand/acquire.

It does, because it means that scale is not represented accurately. There are many blacksmiths and repair traders in-game because it is useful for the players, not because it accurately represents the density of blascksmiths and repair traders in the lore.

Because lore-wise, it doesn't make sense that a lowly skilled blacksmith in the Valley of Trials knows how to repair my legendary armor. It doesn't make sense vendors have infinite ammounts of gold and most items. It doesn't make sense Hunters don't have any need to carry or replenish their stocks of ammo, be it by buying or crafting. It doesn't make sense that a bag that can fit 24 warhammers can only fit 24 different gems.

That kind of "lore" and "realism" logic doesn't apply to WoW, especially not to stop gameplay changes and additions from happening.

Untrue assumption? I explained in great detail, in the very lines you quoted, why they would have to know how to build technology, and all you have to counter that is "you have an untrue assumption"? Seriously?

You explained many things of what you think, but you haven't proven yet that to use technological gadgets such as explosives, guns, lasers, exoskeletons, mechasuits and whatever else you also have to know how to craft them, especially not in any way that IMPOSES that on WoW gameplay or design.

Your comparison fails because you're comparing Azeroth to our real-life world, here, where technology is in each and every aspect of our every-day lives.

Nope. Technology is in each and every aspect of our every-day lives, indeed. That means most people know how to use said technology (even then, many still don't). It doesn't mean most or even a lot know how to craft or even repair the technology.

... Flavor text is lore. You know when you open a quest text? Everything that is shown in the 'Description' section is just that: flavor text. All that matters in the quest window is the objectives.

Items flavor text are not the same as quests text.

[Complicated Wood]: "It's just not that simple."
Doesn't look like amazing and deep lore to me. Flavor text CAN contain lore. It also can contain jokes, references to pop culture, and many more. It's not necessarily reliable, especially not with logic jumps that mix in error messages to make a point.

And one more time: Just because the "restriction" is there (you still haven't provided any proof to back your claim that "the majority of eng items required eng skill"), doesn't mean it cant be removed. You say it's because of lore and "realism", but I still only see gameplay purposes: Making the profession more interesting/unique. And honestly you can't prove otherwise, not by "connections" to the "lore" through basicly "clues".

If you find me any real quote from a reliable source of lore (one of the books or comics, for instance), then I'll agree with you. Until then, gameplay restrictions do not equal lore.

- - - Updated - - -

First picture is not Warcraft. It's Heroes of the Storm.

Heroes of the Storm INCLUDES part of the Warcraft universe, as in franchise, which is what I mentioned it was portraying. Gazlowe in HotS IS part of the Warcraft universe, despite the game being a spin-off that mixes multiple universe.

[Thimagryn]

This topic is getting old. Do we really need another class in WoW?
Im not saying it wont be cool, but the Survival Spec already have the "trap/engineer"-ish touch.
But I think people have more Robot/Turret/Bombs in mind when thinking about the Tinker.

And theres no "famous" tinker in WoW, all other classes are represented from Warcraft 1-2-3 series.
RiP Tinker class. I'd rather balance/change the existing classes better than having a new class.

Gazlowe and Mekkatorque.

We have a Monk class that is represented by Chen, the optional ally in Rexxar's DLC campaign. This is a total non issue.

[Knyx]

"To make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" ~Carl Sagan

You can't make EVERYTHING. Just because you didn't make the bolts or the welder doesn't mean that you didn't make it. You can build yourself a decent gaming PC but you don't have to make the processor or motherboard from raw materials.

Yeah, I get what you mean. The problem from a gameplay standpoint is that you basically relegate the Engineer profession to being just a fabricator to make supplies for a specific class. Not to mention that Engineering sort of then becomes a "mandatory" profession for that class. Plus it would be the only class whose class progression requires buying trade goods from other people, assuming the OP's scenario. It just seems like a whole lot of trouble to go through to squeeze a new class in a game that doesn't really need a new class.

[barrsftw]

The same people who said there is no reason to get DH and we will never get DH are saying the same thing about Tinker. WoW will have tinker as a class as long as the game lives for 4+ more years.

[Pantalaimon]

I love the idea of tinkers, but at the same time I'm not naive enough to think adding yet again another class and playstyle that isn't needed won't negatively affect PvP & raid balance.

Ignore the lore of it all I want someone to actually present a very solid argument on what you think adding a Tinker class will do for pvp & raids that isn't already more or less already present by the other handfuls of classes. Adding a pretty cosmetic label on a class that really does not stand out or offer much of anything unique or doesn't provide something needed is waste and simply introducing something new and shiny for the sake of having a new class.

[Ielenia]

And again, your assumption that technology and access to tecnology gadgets and repairs is sparse is just that, an assumption. Who's to say that with the addition of Tinkers there won't be workshops built on settlements (just like blacksmiths and what not)?

You don't get it. Just because engineers suddenly decide to take up arms, that doesn't we'd see a gigantic boon on technology use, so widespread that makes technology become as commonplace as magic is, today, especially not in a matter of just a few days. And again, technology classes' arsenal isn't comprises solely of low-tech stuff you could buy reasonably anywhere, like a hunter's traps, guns and ammo. They'd use very high-tech weaponry, the kind you don't find anywhere other than the secluded laboratories of mad scientists.

No, I'm saying exactly that Fury Warriors CAN pick any profession, even if it doesn't match their combat style or temperament their lore tells us. Lore-wise, they are described as berserkers and known to have in general a rough temperament.

You do know that being a "furious berserker" doesn't mean you are a "rabid, irrational animal", right? They're not furious all the time.

No, it's not irrelevant. If the lore is relevant to deny the possible existance of non-engineer tinkers, it's also relevant to deny or prove the possible existance of a fury warrior jewelcrafter.

It is irrelevant. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You cannot say "there are no fury warrior jewelcrafters" just because you can't see any.

It does, because it means that scale is not represented accurately.

Oh, so the scale is not represented accurately? Why? Because it doesn't fit your idea that technology is widespread? In short, the scale is not accurate because you want it to be.

There are many blacksmiths and repair traders in-game because it is useful for the players, not because it accurately represents the density of blascksmiths and repair traders in the lore.

For crying out loud. Just look at the game. Unless it's a goblin or gnome settlement, you rarely see technology anywhere (war machines notwithstanding). And if "scale" is your issue, just read the books! Look how they describe the towns the MCs go through. Look how they describe the world. Technology is, at best, very slightly present, unless it's part of an important plot point. But other than that, towns are described like any "normal fantasy" town would be: with little to no technology. Accept it: technology is not widely spread, and is a very niche thing, outside of goblin and gnome cultures. That is the reason why a technology-based class would have to make their own arsenal: what they use cannot be bought anywhere.

You explained many things of what you think, but you haven't proven yet that to use technological gadgets such as explosives, guns, lasers, exoskeletons, mechasuits and whatever else you also have to know how to craft them, especially not in any way that IMPOSES that on WoW gameplay or design.

Read above.

Nope.

Actually, yes. Again, technology is very, very restricted in Azeroth.

Items flavor text are not the same as quests text.

Because you say so, or because you got a statement from Blizzard stating so?

[Thimagryn]

Yeah, I get what you mean. The problem from a gameplay standpoint is that you basically relegate the Engineer profession to being just a fabricator to make supplies for a specific class. Not to mention that Engineering sort of then becomes a "mandatory" profession for that class. Plus it would be the only class whose class progression requires buying trade goods from other people, assuming the OP's scenario. It just seems like a whole lot of trouble to go through to squeeze a new class in a game that doesn't really need a new class.

It's easy enough to distinguish a Tinker from an Engineer the way you'd distinguish an Enchanter from a Mage.

Engineering is a profession. Anyone can make or use technology, which you learn and train from having Plans or through a trainer. You follow a blueprint that someone else made, your profession is about having the aptitude to read and follow those instructions. Everything you make, from a dragonite whelpling to a giant steam mech mount, comes from learning it through trainers and plans.

A Tinker can be seen as a tech specialist of sorts, designing their own creations and specializing in their use. Unlike the Engineer, they develop their skills through practice and experience; they invent new skills as they level up. While anyone can learn to make and use a bomb (as long as they receive the right training), a Tinker specializes in their use for demolitions and sustained combat. Anyone can throw a bomb, but it takes a specialist to know how to properly blow up a building. A demolitions expert wouldn't necessarily use the same home-made pipebombs that engineers use to demolish a building, even if the technology comes from the same (cultural) source. They'd use their own brand of weaponry, engineering only supplements their existing armory.