Trump just pissed off Beijing in a major way

[Scathbais]

I think the day will come when he will be much more trouble than he's worth. Trump's purpose, such as it is, is to put on a grand show and sign Paul Ryan, the actual most powerful person in Washington's budget. If he becomes a distraction, Republicans will create an excuse to remove him.

Let's not forget how Nixon's resignation happened: he called Congressional Republicans, who had turned against Nixon and liked Gerald Ford, who was House Minority Leader. When they made clear they would not protect him, he realized the jig is up, and resigned.

The Trumpkins are dishonest people intrinsically and will never admit to it, but Trump is a serially lazy, sloppy, dishonest man. It's going to catch up with him in this job. The fact that Romney/Paul Ryan people seem to be everywhere all of a sudden indicates that Trump is effectively being compartmentalized as a guy who stages rallies and rubber stamps things that Ryan and Mitch McConnell will create.

Someone needs to throw his goddamn phone out of a moving car though.

Sounds like someone is still mad that their candidate lost!!!!! Why else would you trash Trump so badly with such jaded maliciousness?

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Source: http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/02/donal...iwan-call.html

So yeah Trump just managed to piss on 40 years of US policy, piss off Beijing, and it was probably on accident....

Hypocrisy at its best:

Obama opens up relations with brutal dictators in Iran and Cuba. Liberals cheer and anoint St. Obama.
Trump has a conversation with a democratically elected leader of Taiwan and the left cries for his head.

[Scathbais]

Spoken like someone with absolutely no fucking idea how politics on a national / global scale works. Also, Trump isnt president yet, and he seems to be doing a damn good job of proving that he is completely unsuited for the job.

Here is a hint: Fuckups like this can and have lead to a lot of people ending up dead due to political muscle flexing turning into goddamned wars.

Any yet Obama's foreign policy (that you probably worship) gave us ISIS, a resurgent China building islands in the China Sea, Russia taking territory from it's neighbors, Syria gassing its citizens and crossing our "red line in the sand" and giving Iran hundreds of millions in cash exchange for US hostages. But yeah, Trump is the "fuckup".

[Garnier Fructis]

Hypocrisy at its best:

Obama opens up relations with brutal dictators in Iran and Cuba. Liberals cheer and anoint St. Obama.
Trump has a conversation with a democratically elected leader of Taiwan and the left cries for his head.

Wow, it's almost as if there's more to international politics than 'democracy / dictator.'

[Nasuem]

Why would we go to war with China? Because they're trying to destroy the world order as we know it. They're competing with us to be the strongest economy, and the strongest military. They are trying to take control of trillions of dollars of FREE trade in the south and east China seas illegally. China actively works against US interests.
"
Typically those are good reasons for countries to go to war. And are you kidding me? The people would support a war with China. People in the states hate China. And boo hoo. Fucked up elections my ass. Trump won fairly, get over it. Can't believe someone would actually make the argument that that would be a good reason to have an oppressive, tyrannical Government that rules over it's people with an iron fist.

No one in the US wants a war with China, other than you apparently. And they aren't close to competing with the US military, 19 air craft carriers I think to their 1.

[Belize]

Wow, it's almost as if there's more to international politics than 'democracy / dictator.'

Psh, the world is black and white, you're either on our side or against, and right or wrong!

Nuance is not accepted here

[Surfd]

Exactly. Hold onto your Pussys. America is back, and we have a guy who'll be in charge who can play the game masterfully.

Trump is utterly fucking clueless when it comes to global politics. This man wont play the game, the game will fucking play him like a fiddle.

[Kallisto]

Hypocrisy at its best:

Obama opens up relations with brutal dictators in Iran and Cuba. Liberals cheer and anoint St. Obama.
Trump has a conversation with a democratically elected leader of Taiwan and the left cries for his head.

Obama talks to two groups and essentially brings them into world diplomacy where both are basically neutered from where they were before hand. (Look at the Iran deal, it basically is "Do as we say and we'll let you have some treats.") Also by talking basically pushed the hardliners to the sidelines while if Trump reverses it then the hardliners could regain influence and push back progress decades.

Trump by talking to the Taiwan leader threatens to piss off a nation whose actions can make 2008 look like a tiny blip if they are pushed far enough. A nation which considers the island a rebellious breakaway region while the Island considers said nation as occupied by an illegitimate group which said Island desires to replace and become head of said country.

Meanwhile the status quo is the best situation for everyone. The US gets to have an ally in the region and sell it out of date weaponry enough to keep it too fortified if a hardline Chinese leader takes over. China gets to send a complaint which is more to please its own hardliners more than anything, knowing it means nothing. Taiwan gets to be independent in all but name and bides its time for the inevitable political liberalisation of China 20/30/40 years down the road. Where it might be open to more dialogue and reintroduction to mainland politics.

[Surfd]

Any yet Obama's foreign policy (that you probably worship) gave us ISIS, a resurgent China building islands in the China Sea, Russia taking territory from it's neighbors, Syria gassing its citizens and crossing our "red line in the sand" and giving Iran hundreds of millions in cash exchange for US hostages. But yeah, Trump is the "fuckup".

I'm Canadian btw. I don't, and have never, worshiped any US foreign policy. That being said, it is incredibly sad that you actually believe that Obama is actually responsible for any of those things except for maybe the last one. (Obama created Isis. There are not enough LULZ.) It is almost like global politics is more complex then simply going "every time somebody does something the US doesn't like, we threaten them with violence". Who would have thought?

[Nadiru]

Meanwhile the status quo is the best situation for everyone. The US gets to have an ally in the region and sell it out of date weaponry enough to keep it too fortified if a hardline Chinese leader takes over. China gets to send a complaint which is more to please its own hardliners more than anything, knowing it means nothing. Taiwan gets to be independent in all but name and bides its time for the inevitable political liberalisation of China 20/30/40 years down the road. Where it might be open to more dialogue and reintroduction to mainland politics.

'Inevitable political liberalization,' my ass. The Chinese economy will stagnate long before it gets to the point where it can safely liberalize. China is already experiencing massive currency outflows into the North American real estate and equity markets, and once the average schmuck realizes that the party's over, you can forget the image of Asia as a tranquil region of the world. Shit's going to get realer there than we've ever seen; nobody's ever seen what it looks like when 1,300,000,000 people realize they're absolutely fucked.

Trump was wrong to take the call, but only because he's about a decade too early.

[bewbew]

The DPP* was willing to risk pissing of China.

Spilling blood in order to tell the world that you have what you already have is idiotic. Taiwan is autonomous and has been autonomous for a really long time. It is, quite literally, trading lives for pride. The DPP didn't win because they're pro-independence. They won because people were pissed off that the economy was not getting better for them under the KMT. It's the same reason we ended up with Trump.

Other countries tended to spill blood to gain actual autonomy. That's why this is different. Because it would be spilling blood for no good reason at all.

The point is they don't have it.

Taiwan, internationally, is still treated as not a real country, just a rogue state of China.

While for a strict utilitarianism approach, it doesn't matter, as other countries trade regularly with Taiwan, it's clear that what is "useful" isn't enough.

Hell, when my country declared independance, it's metropolis (Portugal) had already allowed it to freely trade as an autonomous country.

Pride in it's own group (in this case, nation) is a constitutive part of many's people own identity, and they are willing to fight for it.

More power to them.

[Garnier Fructis]

More power to them.

Ideally we'd live in a world where the people who want to bleed and die for something inane like this can do it without dragging the rest of us with them.

Sadly, that is not our world. Utilitarianism is fine. Weighing pride more than lives is the source of a lot of unnecessary death in the world.

[bewbew]

Ideally we'd live in a world where the people who want to bleed and die for something inane like this can do it without dragging the rest of us with them.

Sadly, that is not our world. Utilitarianism is fine. Weighing pride more than lives is the source of a lot of unnecessary death in the world.

Too bad. This world doesn't operate on idealism.

And I fundamentally disagree. Having pride on one's identity is a far more higher calling for Man than bowing their heads down and being satisfied with "free trade".

[Garnier Fructis]

Too bad. This world doesn't operate on idealism.

And I fundamentally disagree. Having pride on one's identity is a far more higher calling for Man than bowing their heads down and being satisfied with "free trade".

I don't know if you've ever actually been or lived there, but nobody bows down to China. Aside from being a chip on the political axis and a source of annoying tourists, there isn't even a hint of socialist China in Taiwan. They didn't settle for free trade. They have their own government and hence their own politics. Their own military. Their own unique blend of mainland and indigenous culture.

A conflict with China is the fastest way to end all of this.

And I can't get past the irony of how fighting and dying for pride alone is actually idealism.

[Tsar Bomba]

'Inevitable political liberalization,' my ass. The Chinese economy will stagnate long before it gets to the point where it can safely liberalize. China is already experiencing massive currency outflows into the North American real estate and equity markets, and once the average schmuck realizes that the party's over, you can forget the image of Asia as a tranquil region of the world. Shit's going to get realer there than we've ever seen; nobody's ever seen what it looks like when 1,300,000,000 people realize they're absolutely fucked.

Trump was wrong to take the call, but only because he's about a decade too early.

Truth. Also in this "tranquil region of the world" you get get an extra side with the full course like this...

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/e...tTP/story.html

No worries however, mmoc general will set the record straight and spend 25 pages worth of calories hating a phone call (as long as an American makes it) while abuses such as the one I've posted never get mentioned.

[Deleted]

No one in the US wants a war with China, other than you apparently. And they aren't close to competing with the US military, 19 air craft carriers I think to their 1.

I don't want a war but see it as inevitable, and when the time comes it's better to prepared and ready. China and the US are enemies. Eventually something will give and war will happen. You're underestimating the Chinese military, though. It would be extremely costly. With that being said, I'd rather that war than have China in command of the world while we would end up being second class. That's something our country will never allow without a fight.

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Obama talks to two groups and essentially brings them into world diplomacy where both are basically neutered from where they were before hand. (Look at the Iran deal, it basically is "Do as we say and we'll let you have some treats.") Also by talking basically pushed the hardliners to the sidelines while if Trump reverses it then the hardliners could regain influence and push back progress decades.

Trump by talking to the Taiwan leader threatens to piss off a nation whose actions can make 2008 look like a tiny blip if they are pushed far enough. A nation which considers the island a rebellious breakaway region while the Island considers said nation as occupied by an illegitimate group which said Island desires to replace and become head of said country.

Meanwhile the status quo is the best situation for everyone. The US gets to have an ally in the region and sell it out of date weaponry enough to keep it too fortified if a hardline Chinese leader takes over. China gets to send a complaint which is more to please its own hardliners more than anything, knowing it means nothing. Taiwan gets to be independent in all but name and bides its time for the inevitable political liberalisation of China 20/30/40 years down the road. Where it might be open to more dialogue and reintroduction to mainland politics.

If China tried to attack our economy we'd just blow their economy up. We'd get wounded sure, their country would collapse.

[unfilteredJW]

Too bad. This world doesn't operate on idealism.

And I fundamentally disagree. Having pride on one's identity is a far more higher calling for Man than bowing their heads down and being satisfied with "free trade".

If you did this on purpose, you get a gold star.

[Deleted]

Ideally we'd live in a world where the people who want to bleed and die for something inane like this can do it without dragging the rest of us with them.

Sadly, that is not our world. Utilitarianism is fine. Weighing pride more than lives is the source of a lot of unnecessary death in the world.

No. Instead you live in a world where people rather fight for their freedom and independence than be a coward hiding away. Sorry, you live in a world full of brave people willing to fight and die for those things.

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Too bad. This world doesn't operate on idealism.

And I fundamentally disagree. Having pride on one's identity is a far more higher calling for Man than bowing their heads down and being satisfied with "free trade".

This is why there are dictatorships. You have people who'd rather bow down like a coward than fight for freedom. There is nothing ideal about being a coward.

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I don't know if you've ever actually been or lived there, but nobody bows down to China. Aside from being a chip on the political axis and a source of annoying tourists, there isn't even a hint of socialist China in Taiwan. They didn't settle for free trade. They have their own government and hence their own politics. Their own military. Their own unique blend of mainland and indigenous culture.

A conflict with China is the fastest way to end all of this.

And I can't get past the irony of how fighting and dying for pride alone is actually idealism.

The only reason you have a single right is because someone, long ago, fought and died for it. Because they had the pride to stand up to those that threatened their lives, freedom, and independence.

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Circle-jerk is this way.


Because everything was working fine for everyone.
The China-Taiwan relationship was like the US' policy on homosexuality in the military: Don't ask, don't tell.

You misunderstood me. I really don't care about Trump much, personally just preferred him to Clinton. Lesser of two evils in my opinion. I just don't care about your opinion when it comes to our country, because frankly your opinion doesn't matter. You don't get a say in America.

[Hexian]

Exactly and when China decides enough is enough already USA will crash and burn from within due to all those unfunded taxcuts that had to be financed with loans from China

Rofl...

Somebody doesn't understand the US national debt.

[Garnier Fructis]

No. Instead you live in a world where people rather fight for their freedom and independence than be a coward hiding away. Sorry, you live in a world full of brave people willing to fight and die for those things.

Oh come on. Taiwan already has freedom, and it already has independence. The only thing they don't have is international recognition of that independence. That's it. In every other respect, it is it's own free country. They'll be fighting and dying for recognition, and in the end lose both their freedom and independence.

You all seriously need to stop pretending like Taiwan is some sort of oppressed state yearning for freedom. I've lived there, and all this Braveheart stuff is really, really misplaced.

The only reason you have a single right is because someone, long ago, fought and died for it. Because they had the pride to stand up to those that threatened their lives, freedom, and independence.

The only ones threatening all three of those are people who want to risk a conflict with China.

[kyoloco]

he is just trolling them

what did you expect of him?