Saris, samosas and steel drums - societal integration issues

[Kalis]

50 quid for the application maybe, the actual cost of moving is much more.

No, £50 for the airfare. Might have been more, as I came from Cyprus and not England, can't remember now. Still cheaper than living in England though and Cyprus. I can't imagine Pakistan or Bangladesh is more expensive than England.

Some people leave, some people stay even though they hate it. What can I say?

So they leave, apart from the ones who don't leave and they hate it, apart from presumably the ones that don't hate it. Very informative, thank you.

Being Romani is just like a heritage thing. Thanks for reinforcing the whole Nazi thing though.

My family fought against the Nazis, you can thank me on their behalf if you want, but there is really no need.

Do you act like a fascist in every thread?

I generally don't invade Poland or Ethiopia in any thread.

[Kalis]

Oh for the airfare rofl. So basically to be an illegal immigrant it costs 50 quid.

Why would they be illegal immigrants? I am presuming they would go to a country they come from, or their parents come from, not just pick a random country.

Bangladesh and Pakistan are literally 2 countries. If you're someone with a disability you will not be able to get citizenship in another country very easily. It's far more complicated than you seem to understand.

I am pretty confident that being Pakistani or Bangladeshi is not officially classified as a disability.

People who don't like their country can still live in that country and not like it. It's called Freedom.

Didn't they leave? Or is this some other random group you have invented?

Lol you must be a disappointment.

My mother's and grandmother's favourite, probably my dimples.

Your family would definitely hate you for thinking that this is what fascism is.

I am pretty sure my family would not give a toss about me taking the piss out of you.

[Kalis]

Because in many countries you need a visa which costs money. You can't just buy a plane ticket rofl. Pick a country where their parents come from...

Well if they don't like the UK and come from Pakistani or Bangladeshi communities, then the logical choice is them going to Pakistan or Bangladesh, where they would qualify for a passport, if they don't already have one.

geeze could you at least pretend you're not upper middle class for a second?

"Alright mate, strike a light. Have it you caaaant. Up the 'ammers! You seen the knockers on that bird? Don't get many of them to the pound." Is that good enough pretending? I saw a Danny Dyer film once, not really my thing.

I'm guessing they never saw you grow up huh.

I am pretty confident they did.

They'd probably give a toss about you pretending fascism is no big deal lol.

Saying that I have not invaded Poland or Ethiopia wouldn't really bother them. It is not really a subject that comes up though, I generally don't list all the countries I haven't invaded every time I meet a family member.

[Kalis]

And that's the attitude that gives rise to communities largely populated by immigrants.

The whole "bang goes the neighbourhood" attitude creates ethnic enclaves and all the integration problems that go along.

Then when wealthy people try to move back in, they get bitchslapped with accusations of gentrification.

[serenka]

Well this thread didn't take long to get off topic!

[Nitro Fun]

Without those communities British people would still be eating fried bread, beans and sausages.

You have no clue how the cuisine part of a culture spreads, do you? You can have the cuisine of a culture without having any people belonging to that culture in the country just because people went to a country where they were served that food and brought back the recipe to their country and spread it to their friends and family and they spread it to other people.

[Kalis]

I can't understand you through your racism.

I dunno if your logic is very good.

That doesn't relate to anything I've said.

Well thanks for the confirmation.

Not my fault my father was a professional.

What i mean't by that is would you say what you say here in front of them?

Not the swearing, but apart from that, then yes.

Saying that in order to be fascist you have to invade poland or ethiopa would probably not sit very well with them.

I guess you don't really understand since it doesn't come up.

It was a joke about fascism, I come from a country that had Fawlty Towers, Allo Allo and Dad's Army, we joke about the war. Though it is debatable whether Allo Allo had jokes.

Incidentally, I used to live next door to Herr Flick's mother. She was a fascist.

[Kalis]

Maybe so, but that's not what we are discussing.

It's too easy to say immigrants must integrate but if the locals move out as the immigrants move in, the chances of integration are reduced greatly.

Italians integrated in Scotland and Wales, Greeks and Turks in London. It is up to the incoming communities to make the effort.

[serenka]

Without those communities British people would still be eating fried bread, beans and sausages.

that doesn't sound so bad

[Tijuana]

A bit of background, the UK Government initiated a report on social integration in Britain, this article from the Guardian talks about it;




I have highlighted a couple of parts that non-British people may not readily understand, namely;



This highlights how insular some of these communities are, the actual percentage of the population who are Asian (i.e. Pakistani, Bangladeshi or Indian) in Britain is about 7%.



Cornish is a language spoken by basically nobody - less than 1% of people in Cornwall speak Cornish to any significant degree, roughly 3,000-5,000 people. In contrast, the UK as a whole has a population of 65 million, with English being the de facto official language.


So the problems are lack of willingness to integrate, cultural practices that hinder integration and successive administrations that have failed to address the issues, preferring instead to turn a blind eye, or focus on 'soft' targets such as those who are already integrating.

I am not convinced that "...an “integration oath” to encourage immigrants to embrace British values, more focus on promoting the English language, encouraging social mixing among young people, and securing “women’s emancipation in communities where they are being held back by regressive cultural practices”" will be enough.

We need to get over this culture of calling people racist, and fear of being called racist, whenever problems of integration arise. As Dame Lousie Casey points out in a separate article, "Too often leaders and institutions have ducked these difficult issues. Not because they thought white women were more worthy of help, but for fear of being labelled racist or insensitive. Yet when we do that it isn’t good for race relations or for women. You only have to look at what happened in Rotherham to see that."

Rotherham is a reference to the notorious child abuse scandal that involved 1,500 victims, where fear being labelled racists paralysed the authorities, described by Theresa May as "institutionalised political correctness".

The Guardian is one of the culprits in fostering this climate of calling every attempt to tackle issues within ethnic minority communities racist, but I'll give them a pass this time.

Meanwhile in America....

It's harder than it looked all those years, isn't it? Managing diversity while maintaining your culture? We are kind of laughing at Europe failing hard at this, after decades of being told how terrible we were for struggling with it.

[Tijuana]

I really was hoping this was a thread about those steel drums things they play in Jamaica. More bands need to use those things, whatever they are called.

[Kalis]

Meanwhile in America....

It's harder than it looked all those years, isn't it? Managing diversity while maintaining your culture? We are kind of laughing at Europe failing hard at this, after decades of being told how terrible we were for struggling with it.

We weren't laughing at Americans for failing at integration. Your dress sense, yes.

You had enforced segregation, we didn't have that, people have always been free to integrate into our society and many have done down the years. Apart from Catholics, we were not too keen on them.

[Tijuana]

We weren't laughing at Americans for failing at integration. Your dress sense, yes.

You had enforced segregation, we didn't have that, people have always been free to integrate into our society and many have done down the years. Apart from Catholics, we were not too keen on them.

The problem is the numbers. It's clearly too many, too quickly. That goes for the US immigration problems as well.

Also, I didn't mean with slaves; That goes pretty far back. I was speaking to general issues resulting from the most diverse populace on earth. It's not as easy as it looks.

[Kalis]

Well duh you lack self awareness.

I guess it's not his fault his son turned out as a spoiled brat either eh?

Who is spoilt? I never asked my parents for anything once I left home at 17.

Well either your grandparents didn't know what they were fighting for or they can't tell what modern fascism looks like.

Just because you call something fascism, does not mean it is fascism.

You come from a country that rolled over to Hitler until he was such a big threat the world had to team up to stop him.

And what did your country do? Oh wait, you don't have one, so who the fuck are you to criticise?

Well unsurprisingly fascism is maybe something you should brush up on if you think your views on immigrants are very reflective of policies the Nazi's implemented.

Pretty sure I have never advocated gassing people for their religious beliefs, ethnicity or sexual preference.

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The problem is the numbers. It's clearly too many, too quickly. That goes for the US immigration problems as well.

Also, I didn't mean with slaves; That goes pretty far back. I was speaking to general issues resulting from the most diverse populace on earth. It's not as easy as it looks.

Our problems came from two sources, the huge loss of life suffered in WWII, which meant we needed manpower and the more recent Labour Party policy to bring everybody in to show how cool and multicultural we are, without actually having a vision as to what multiculturalism actually entailed.

[Tijuana]

Who is spoilt? I never asked my parents for anything once I left home at 17.



Just because you call something fascism, does not mean it is fascism.



And what did your country do? Oh wait, you don't have one, so who the fuck are you to criticise?



Pretty sure I have never advocated gassing people for their religious beliefs, ethnicity or sexual preference.

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Our problems came from two sources, the huge loss of life suffered in WWII, which meant we needed manpower and the more recent Labour Party policy to bring everybody in to show how cool and multicultural we are, without actually having a vision as to what multiculturalism actually entailed.

Hint: It's not having a completely separate society living withing your borders but not among you.

[Kalis]

Hint: It's not having a completely separate society living withing your borders but not among you.

The problem is that some just don't want to integrate, we didn't sort out the wheat from the chaff, but we had a cultural attitude of "Don't discuss immigration policy, it's racist to do so". It is only in the last five years or so that it has become accepted to say that attitude is bollocks and discussing immigration is perfectly normal and in fact sensible.

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Ever since the Windrush Generation ethnic enclaves and ghettos have arisen because as the immigrants move into an area the locals move out. If you want to stop these enclaves from appearing the locals have to accept the immigrants as part of the community, and in so doing integration will happen.

No offence but that is not what happens in London, I highly doubt it is the case in other parts of England either. They don't integrate because they don't want to, some do and they integrate, so it is not impossible.

We had this ridiculous notion of a multicultural society, with no plan of what that even meant, beyond some airy fairy utopian nonsense. What we should have done is absorbed those people into our culture and adopted any parts of their culture we liked, which is what we have been doing for centuries.

[Tijuana]

The problem is that some just don't want to integrate, we didn't sort out the wheat from the chaff, but we had a cultural attitude of "Don't discuss immigration policy, it's racist to do so". It is only in the last five years or so that it has become accepted to say that attitude is bollocks and discussing immigration is perfectly normal and in fact sensible.

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No offence but that is not what happens in London, I highly doubt it is the case in other parts of England either. They don't integrate because they don't want to, some do and they integrate, so it is not impossible.

We had this ridiculous notion of a multicultural society, with no plan of what that even meant, beyond some airy fairy utopian nonsense. What we should have done is absorbed those people into our culture and adopted any parts of their culture we liked, which is what we have been doing for centuries.

It's sad when public opinion is based in fantasy ideals, that won't stand up to discussion. Anytime someone is angry about being asked to discuss something, it's because they know they can't defend it, yet are for some strange reason unwilling to mentally address that in their minds.

[Theodarzna]

Cornish is a language....

I still wish to learn more than basic sentences in that one.

Doesn't English have enough incentivized promotion already?

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Ever since the Windrush Generation ethnic enclaves and ghettos have arisen because as the immigrants move into an area the locals move out. If you want to stop these enclaves from appearing the locals have to accept the immigrants as part of the community, and in so doing integration will happen.

Is it not possible the people moved because the newcomers didn't feel like being British, English or whatever they happen to be around?

[Kalis]

I still wish to learn more than basic sentences in that one.

If people want to learn it, then they are free to do so, nobody gives a shit, but we shouldn't be promoting it more than we promote a language that is actually useful outside of some little village where everybody has six fingers on each hand.

Doesn't English have enough incentivized promotion already?

We bend over backwards to accomodate non-native languages and it seems we've gone too far, to the point that some don't even feel the need to speak the language.

[Kalis]

None taken, but London isn't a typical British city and is no reflection of other British cities. They don't integrate because on arrival they are housed in the same area with few cultural reference other than their own.

But it is areas like in London, Bradford, Brimingham, etc. that are the problems, we aren't struggling with integration in places like Bournemouth.

I agree, the notion of multiculturalism is absurd, but you don't encourage integration by creating enclaves and ghettos.

No and we don't encourage it by turning a blond eye to the bullshit those communities are doing either.