[Movie] Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi

[Tijuana]

If there is one thing the prequels did do that I liked, was set up the premise that the Jedi's rigidness and lack of foresight led to the rise of the Empire and Darth Vader. It's a common critique of more "virtuous" philosophies like pacifism, that they don't bend enough for the real world, and thus are easily overcome. I'd like Luke's role in this movie to be about recounting what happened when he was training Ben Solo, and how focusing too much on the traditional Jedi way led to him becoming Kylo Ren, just like Anakin became Vader. Then, Luke goes into meditation to figure out the "balanced" path.

As for when it takes place in the movie, it can be the beginning or the end. I hope they don't go with Rey convincing him to go back to the traditional Jedi thing. I hope what happens is that either 1) Luke agrees to train her as long as she agrees to be trained in a more "Grey" way, with the purpose of ending the Jedi/Sith dichotomy, or 2) Luke agrees to train her in the traditional way, but is secretly trying to manipulate her to his viewpoint, IE they have opposing goals in mind.

I agree with this so much. I think the story telling of this fell short, for various reasons though. It seemed jarring in the end when Anakin flips, and I think it should have been something we saw coming, or rather, understood why it happened. There was a chance there to show that Vader wasn't wholly evil, but he merely chose a side, and that side included working for someone evil.

It's a shame some of the types of conversations that Anakin had with Obiwan in their Marvel comic series, didn't make it in to the prequels. A little bit of chat where Anakin questions the Jedi Order would have told the story better. A certain scene where much frolicking in the meadow was going on, would have been a good place to put that conversation.

I think based on the prophecy of the chosen one restoring balance to the force, Anakin's fall to the dark side, the Bendu in Rebels, and the new trailer, all the talk of balance means they are clearly moving in the direction of abandoning the dogma of both only using the light side, and of the rigid and emotionless lifestyle of the prequel Jedi.

While it may be jarring to some, I think it's sort of necessary, from a story telling stand point. There isn't a lot of character development to be had, for a character that has no emotion. I feel like the very plain light vs dark, good vs evil angle has sort of ran it's course. I think the modern movie goer has changed, and they prefer more complex characters than they did in the 1970's.

Also, when comparing the IP to it's competitors (arguably Marvel MCU and DC), the powers of the classical Jedi are sort of weak sauce. I could not be more tickled by Luke's line in the trailer something to the effect of, "It's so much more than that". I would love to see a great expansion of Jedi capability, because it just looks cool. I also think they did so much more with the force in the EU, than they have done so far in the films. Pretty much everyone gets a saber, a force push, and some ability to land softly from up high. I think the lore has room for a LOT more than that, given force lightning and mind reading are a thing. Plus, the Jedi could just use a visual upgrade, given the newer capabilities of digital effects.

[PACOX]

[I'm with the theory that either Luke has finally realized the flaws of the Jedi Order as it is or he is messing with Rey to push her. She is still a deer-eyed desert dweller who who no grasp on the sxop and the galaxy and its politics. She views the Civil War and story of the Jedi as if they were some grand hero's story. Meanwhile Luke looks all disheveled and grim after being faced with the true evils of the galaxy and the burden of combating them.

Witnessing the evil of the Sith first hand, learning the truth about Vader and the Jedi, his failure to resurrect the Order, see Kylo embrace the dark side. Luke has to be in a deep state of depression. Then we have happy go luck Rey just roll up, he has to be thinking "not this shit again".

[Kokolums]

[I'm with the theory that either Luke has finally realized the flaws of the Jedi Order as it is or he is messing with Rey to push her. She is still a deer-eyed desert dweller who who no grasp on the sxop and the galaxy and its politics. She views the Civil War and story of the Jedi as if they were some grand hero's story. Meanwhile Luke looks all disheveled and grim after being faced with the true evils of the galaxy and the burden of combating them.

Witnessing the evil of the Sith first hand, learning the truth about Vader and the Jedi, his failure to resurrect the Order, see Kylo embrace the dark side. Luke has to be in a deep state of depression. Then we have happy go luck Rey just roll up, he has to be thinking "not this shit again".

I assume Episode 9 culminates with Luke Skywalker vs Snoke in a lightsaber battle PLUS Rey vs Ben Solo in a second lightsaber battle. Currently, Luke has given up on the Jedi and is in self-exile. Connecting the dots suggests Luke decides no Jedi can kill Snoke so Luke expands his knowledge of the Force by becoming some sort of grey Jedi. Rey has to defeat Solo but maybe Snoke kills Luke and then you get Rey vs Snoke and Rey wins.

I'm not sure how to wrap up Ben Solo's story. Having Rey outright kill Solo at the end of episode 9 doesn't feel good because (1) he's Han Solo's kid and (2) he never really accomplished a whole lot in life as a bad guy to make it feel like a huge accomplishment to kill him. However, turning Ben Solo good also doesn't feel like a satisfactory outcome because its a rehash of Vader. Throwing Ben Solo in jail doesn't feel good.

If I was writing this, I think I'd have to turn Ben Solo into a double agent. He'd FAKE following Anakin's path and pretend to turn good. Then when he gains almost everyone's trust, I'd have him turn back to a dark force user, reveal it was just a ruse and have him kill Chewbacca, leading into the final fight with Rey vs Solo with Rey killing him. In this scenario, I'd have Chewbacca be Ben's biggest supporter and believer in Ben's change of heart so when Ben kills Chewbacca it has maximum impact.

[eschatological]

I agree the issue with Ben Solo is interesting.

To me, in TFA, he's already avoided the trap of Vader, and indeed, used Han's past knowledge of Vader's change-of-heart to cruelly manipulate him to his death. One of the best moments in TFA, to me, is the moment right before Han's death, because the lines from Ben can be interpreted two ways. He talks about how he's being pulled apart, and how he needs his father's help to finally resolve the conflict in him, which can mean: A) Help me to turn back to good (like Han interprets it), or B) Help me finally kill the good in me by committing the worst atrocity in mythical stories: patricide. Narratively, the audience is supposedly to shift from Han's viewpoint in A) to suddenly and despairingly realize Ben Solo was talking from the perspective of B). To go back on that, to make some shred of good still exist in Kylo Ren, would be bad storytelling. Even Snoke says something to the effect of "Now his training can be complete," as if Kylo wasn't at full power until he faced his "demon" (IE, his good nature, represented by his parents).

So where does he go from here? I think he has to corrupt Rey. And I think with Luke already pushing her to be Grey, this is going to be surprisingly easy.

Oddly enough, though, I'm not sure where that takes us for Episode IX. If both Rey and Kylo are evil by the end of TLJ (which is the classical 2nd act in a 3 act formula of every trilogy/drama/hero's journey), where does the redemption come from in IX? What, ultimately, saves the Universe? Is it Luke's balanced way? How does his Grey-ness overwhelm pure Sith/blackness? If the Jedi were uncorruptible, but Luke is now corruptible....what then? I think this episode in the trilogy would already be too late to introduce a new universe-saving apprentice. Or is it Rey simply overcoming herself? That storyline seems the obvious one, but as previous posters have mentioned, that would simply be the Vader arc again, except with Rey instead of Kylo.

Wouldn't it be interesting, though, if Episode IX's redemption came in the destruction of "religions" like the Jedi and the Sith, mainly through some sort of science or technology? That would probably be too avant garde for a Star wars aimed at mass audiences though.

[PACOX]

Come to think of it, I'm no longer think they will destroy the Jedi. Change maybe but not completly get rid of them. There is too much fandom behind the Jedi that goes beyond the movies.

[Kokolums]

Odds favor that episode 8 will include time travel, as Rian Johnson was surely hired for his work on Looper, which mixed time travel, super powers, and general sci-fi. Wouldnt shock me to get an appearance by ewan mcgregor, ian mac, sam jackson, or hayden christiansen. Episode 8 director colin trevorrow got his break with a time travel film called Safety Not Guaranteed.

[The Flavour Cat]

Odds favor that episode 8 will include time travel, as Rian Johnson was surely hired for his work on Looper, which mixed time travel, super powers, and general sci-fi. Wouldnt shock me to get an appearance by ewan mcgregor, ian mac, sam jackson, or hayden christiansen. Episode 8 director colin trevorrow got his break with a time travel film called Safety Not Guaranteed.

The SW franchise would suck if it added time travel, even if Johnson did a fine job with it on Looper. If they added that to the films then I bet the filmmakers would triple the amount of references to shove down our throat.
Trevorrow's doing 9, not 8, btw.

[minteK917]

There is no way time travel would be in star wars. You have to remember star wars is not science fiction. The closest thing is the jedi ability to see the future. There will however be flash back, since we can already see one during the trailer for episode 8 and there was in episode 7.

[Archon14]

You have to remember star wars is not science fiction.

Quote worthy of a signature, I say.

[minteK917]

Quote worthy of a signature, I say.

They would have a hard time explaining how shitty their light based weapons suck so much ass. Id say its more of a space fantasy. Even moon sized space station weapons runs on magic crystals.

[Deleted]

Odds favor that episode 8 will include time travel, as Rian Johnson was surely hired for his work on Looper, which mixed time travel, super powers, and general sci-fi. Wouldnt shock me to get an appearance by ewan mcgregor, ian mac, sam jackson, or hayden christiansen. Episode 8 director colin trevorrow got his break with a time travel film called Safety Not Guaranteed.

I dont see time travel happening, maybe flashbacks or some force meditation thing letting them see stuff from the past, but not full time travel.

[Archon14]

They would have a hard time explaining how shitty their light based weapons suck so much ass. Id say its more of a space fantasy. Even moon sized space station weapons runs on magic crystals.

So because they fucked up some things in the movie universe it's not sci-fi? Movies are technically space opera, but that's still sci-fi.

I'm fine with movies having more of a fantasy element to them, but if you're that curious, games explain some of that stuff. Like crafting a lightsaber, for example.

I mean, it has to be sci-fi in order for soldiers that are bred for war to miss all the shots, right?

[Elim Garak]

So because they fucked up some things in the movie universe it's not sci-fi? Movies are technically space opera, but that's still sci-fi.

I'm fine with movies having more of a fantasy element to them, but if you're that curious, games explain some of that stuff. Like crafting a lightsaber, for example.

I mean, it has to be sci-fi in order for soldiers that are bred for war to miss all the shots, right?

Star Wars is not Sci-fi. Don't let the space ships fool you. Even WoW has spaceships.
And it's not because of some things. The entire premise of Star Wars is fantasy. The Force, man. They tried to Sy-fy it up in prequels *cough* midichlorians *cough*. That fact alone is proof enough for any skeptic that SW is indeed not Sci-fi.

Space Opera sure, but space opera doesn't imply sci-fi. It's just an opera, in space a.k.a. nether, void, etc

[Kokolums]

There's evidence time travel is coming:

1. Disney went out of its way to declare a lot of things no longer canon. Seems a bit odd, especially if all of those things hardly influence the films. Unless the films are gonna do time travel in a way which conflicts with Old Republic lore as it once stood.
2. Disney hired sci-fi people who specialize in time travel to run episodes 8 and 9.
3. These people expressly stated they are taking Star Wars to places its never been before.

[Elim Garak]

It's a combination of both.

I.e. Fantasy. Sci-fi cannot contain pure Fantasy that cannot be explained by science. Nothing forbids fantasy to contain science bits, though. Blasters? Please! Make it Blaster +3!

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There's evidence time travel is coming:

1. Disney went out of its way to declare a lot of things no longer canon. Seems a bit odd, especially if all of those things hardly influence the films. Unless the films are gonna do time travel in a way which conflicts with Old Republic lore as it once stood.
2. Disney hired sci-fi people who specialize in time travel to run episodes 8 and 9.
3. These people expressly stated they are taking Star Wars to places its never been before.

Luke's Anakin's father and Leia's (and his own) grand dad. Luke banged his grand ma! Rey is a manifestation of time-force disturbance brought to life to fix the paradox. The jedi must end this practice of coming back in time to bang in violation of Jedi Code.

[s_bushido]

Odds favor that episode 8 will include time travel, as Rian Johnson was surely hired for his work on Looper, which mixed time travel, super powers, and general sci-fi. Wouldnt shock me to get an appearance by ewan mcgregor, ian mac, sam jackson, or hayden christiansen. Episode 8 director colin trevorrow got his break with a time travel film called Safety Not Guaranteed.

Peter Jackson was known for making slasher/gore flicks before doing the most epic fantasy trilogy ever. This means nothing.

[Kokolums]

Peter Jackson was known for making slasher/gore flicks before doing the most epic fantasy trilogy ever. This means nothing.

It does have meaning. Its not 100% though. That's why I'm not guaranteeing time travel. It DOES happen a lot in Hollywood where people are hired for past work to add that same style of work to your project. The odds favor time travel.

[Archon14]

Space Opera sure, but space opera doesn't imply sci-fi. It's just an opera, in space a.k.a. nether, void, etc

Space opera is subgenre of sci-fi by definition. It has spaceships and aliens, therefore => sci-fi.

[PhaelixWW]

Odds favor that episode 8 will include time travel, as Rian Johnson was surely hired for his work on Looper, which mixed time travel, super powers, and general sci-fi. Wouldnt shock me to get an appearance by ewan mcgregor, ian mac, sam jackson, or hayden christiansen. Episode 8 director colin trevorrow got his break with a time travel film called Safety Not Guaranteed.

Odds do not "favor" time travel.

Random internet theories are random.

Doesn't mean it can't possible happen, but it's nowhere near an odds-on favorite.

[Elim Garak]

Space opera is subgenre of sci-fi by definition. It has spaceships and aliens, therefore => sci-fi.

So does wow.