Survival - The Dream

[xZerocidex]

This recent frenzy for specs that are completely distinct is a very recent thing, driven by delusions of "class fantasy". Before 7.0, there was an understanding that there was a base hunter class with its own abilities (steady shot, multi shot, traps, other utility), along with a spec that enhanced certain aspects of that class. So yes, Survival and MM shared a lot of utility and a couple fo damage abilities (Multi-shot, as well as Cobra shot which was pretty much the same as Steady Shot), the ones that differed made the playstyle distinct. Survival was more fast-paced than MM: it's abilities did less damage for less focus and shorter cooldowns. Survival was mobile, MM was not. Survival had to multidot, MM didn't. MM focused on burst, SV focused on sustained.

If they were the same thing, why did vast amounts of people prefer Survival over MM, even at times where MM was stronger?

So no, I have nothing to admit because it'[s a full-of-shit proposition from a full-of-shit poster.

Agreed, Yeah there was an issue is that the two specs had a portion of abilities that were shared between each other but that could've been fixed by separating them and putting them in the spec that ability was suited for.

Arcane Shot never made sense for MM just like Cobra and Kill Shot never made sense for SV. MM should've been a spec that focus on casting while SV was a run and gun spec that had no cd.

I think I recall when Fury could use Colossus Smash but they decided that it should've been only usable as Arms. That's what Blizz should've did with the abilities between MM and SV.

[sabredragon]

Current Survival plays the way I've wanted the Survival spec to play since I started playing wow over a decade ago. My dream is here stop trying to ruin it.

This. While not necessarily Survival being the spec I wanted this fantasy, I've wanted a Beast Lord-esque spec ever since I made the switch from EverQuest to WoW. Survival as it is now kinda satisfies that fantasy that I want, but it's very clunky rn

[Thunderleg]

The dream..since there have been no new mail classes since the dawn of wow.

Survival should have been a healing spec. HoT stings and traps. A pet with AoE effects or what have you. Big hitting Aimed shot style direct heals. Tranq shot for debuffs/decurse. You get the idea. (in pvp the complaining would be so worth it)

BM should of had dual wield melee axes/ranged axes throwing talent choices. (A tank spec perhaps, but would rather see a two-hander Shammy with Earth heavy skills for that).

MM could have old survival choices in the talents tree. Mix and match heaven.

[Bepples]

The dream..since there have been no new mail classes since the dawn of wow.

Survival should have been a healing spec. HoT stings and traps. A pet with AoE effects or what have you. Big hitting Aimed shot style direct heals. Tranq shot for debuffs/decurse. You get the idea. (in pvp the complaining would be so worth it)

BM should of had dual wield melee axes/ranged axes throwing talent choices. (A tank spec perhaps, but would rather see a two-hander Shammy with Earth heavy skills for that).

MM could have old survival choices in the talents tree. Mix and match heaven.

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse than Blizzard's vision for the class, you get ideas like this.

[Gurg]

The dream..since there have been no new mail classes since the dawn of wow.

Survival should have been a healing spec. HoT stings and traps. A pet with AoE effects or what have you. Big hitting Aimed shot style direct heals. Tranq shot for debuffs/decurse. You get the idea. (in pvp the complaining would be so worth it)

BM should of had dual wield melee axes/ranged axes throwing talent choices. (A tank spec perhaps, but would rather see a two-hander Shammy with Earth heavy skills for that).

MM could have old survival choices in the talents tree. Mix and match heaven.

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse than Blizzard's vision for the class, you get ideas like this.

I for once have to agree on this with you. Didnt imagined that i could share your opinion at some point, but this is it. Stuff people come up with is actually complete rework of a class, not just part of it.
In this case.. why not make new class? Something like "Ranger" (which is actually different from hunter.)


Now.. EpicFail and I share different views on survival, our difference is hes ranged player, im melee so we tend to argue about survival a lot.
BUT some of these topics are actually.. pointless?
Even so my intention is not to bash anyone and i do believe in freedom of speech, topic like these, even being constructive in some way, are bound to end up as flame war simply because.. its survival... and survival is atm most subtle said "controversial" spec.
I for once, who mains it as melee player agree on points that melee survival should have been 4th spec, or atleast sane choice pick via talent or passive, switching to from ranged to melee much like "Gladiator Stance" used to work.

Hunter being healer or Tank is kinda.. well funny. We already have an uproar for survival going melee, we dont need more shite for also being two comeptitive roles also.

What you talking about is not any more a hunter. Its a ranger. guy who has special psychic bond with his pet allowing him to get benefits from pet used.
Again, as i said, its a brand new class.. personally which would i like to see introduced. Melee pet class. And leave hunters alone to be ranged as they were.

[xZerocidex]

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse than Blizzard's vision for the class, you get ideas like this.

And asking for a much larger shitstorm at that.

[Queen of Hamsters]

How to fix it: Make it ranged and preferably playing like it did during SoO. Kthx.

[Okacz]

Survival threads are always composed of at least 50% Survival haters talking completly off topic, aren't they.

Anyway, aside of the obvious (fix our incredibly bad talent tree plox), I'd like Explosive Trap removed entirely. Some say Lacerate is redundant, but Explosive is more than that - redundant AND doesn't make sense. It's just a goodie-goodie ability you use on CD because it deals some damage, and what the hell is this - you're arming a trap in the middle of the fight that is supposed to explode at your feet? It should at least be replaced by another hunter-pet ability, Primal Rend or some shit.

[JoshuaNLG]

How to fix it: Make it ranged and preferably playing like it did during SoO. Kthx.

No. A lot of us happen to like the new Survival playstyle, the numbers just aren't there and that's what needs adjusting.

[Deleted]

I posted this suggestion

fail devs be fail devs. corporate shills@blizz. ill expand my thoughts for you in this picture;

[Gurg]

Survival threads are always composed of at least 50% Survival haters talking completly off topic, aren't they.

Anyway, aside of the obvious (fix our incredibly bad talent tree plox), I'd like Explosive Trap removed entirely. Some say Lacerate is redundant, but Explosive is more than that - redundant AND doesn't make sense. It's just a goodie-goodie ability you use on CD because it deals some damage, and what the hell is this - you're arming a trap in the middle of the fight that is supposed to explode at your feet? It should at least be replaced by another hunter-pet ability, Primal Rend or some shit.

As much testing i did on PTR [@cursor] macro works just fine with traps. But the odd thing is.. why would blizzard make spell that NEEDS to be macroed to perform optimally?
Trap should work something like
1. You have a target in melee range, on a button press explosive trap is instantly cast on your current target. (as currently)
2. you have a target but its not in a melee range or you dont have target on button press aiming craicrle would show up

[Nurvus]

"Actual downsides don't count"

Good to know.

So full mobility in exchange for less damage is a characteristic AND acceptable, right?
Good to know.

All right....so they understand that the majority of hunters would hate it if Survival was stronger. What the fuck do you think that says about Survival being melee? If they are aware that it's going to be vastly unpopular from the outset, why bother with the melee revamp?

Survival and Marksmanship always shared most Talents and Abilities because there was little distinguishing them other than Survival requiring less skill and using different damage types.
Blizzard always had a hard time making them both feel different AND meaningful at the same time.
Plus, lots of players you call a minority kept asking for Melee Hunter to come back.
A vast majority cries about Vanilla left and right - but apparently forgot to give Blizzard a list of what they don't want back from Vanilla.

Bllizzard kept your ranged Survival - it's called Marksmanship.

[xZerocidex]

So full mobility in exchange for less damage is a characteristic AND acceptable, right?
Good to know.



Survival and Marksmanship always shared most Talents and Abilities because there was little distinguishing them other than Survival requiring less skill and using different damage types.
Blizzard always had a hard time making them both feel different AND meaningful at the same time.
Plus, lots of players you call a minority kept asking for Melee Hunter to come back.
A vast majority cries about Vanilla left and right - but apparently forgot to give Blizzard a list of what they don't want back from Vanilla.

Talents were shared between most classes during MoP and WoD. I agree that most of the abilities were similar with things like Steady/Cobra, that's where they should've place certain abilities in specs that made sense for it.

As for downside you could also argue that SV never had an actual CD compared to MM(Rapid Fire) or BM(Bestial Wrath).

Blizzard wouldn't have such a hard time trying to make the spec feel different if they listen to some of the feedback the community share, that's what feedback is for right?

Bllizzard kept your ranged Survival - it's called Marksmanship.

No they did not, BA and ES are shells of their former self.

[McJiggles]

Hey all, i realize there is a lively debate going on regarding whether this class should even exist, i do play it for funzies and wanted to know if there was a definitive guide for maximizing dps bonus for M+ versus Raiding considerations.
Icy veins and Wowhead both have light guides but they also differ slightly on what they recommend so was looking for another source.

Thanks!

[Bepples]

So full mobility in exchange for less damage is a characteristic AND acceptable, right?

...yes? Mobility is a characteristic. Balance says that a fully mobile spec should do less damage. I'm not sure why people on your side of the argument are obsessed with hypotheticals on this matter considering we had two fully mobile specs for a number of years and it DIDN'T break the game and those specs didn't dominate all ranged DPS. It's been tried and succeeded.

Survival and Marksmanship always shared most Talents and Abilities because there was little distinguishing them other than Survival requiring less skill and using different damage types.

Considering talents were shared in MoP: then es they shared talents. As for sharing abilities: you clearly ignored my previous post and I'm not inclined to repeat myself time and time again because you're bad at reading comprehension. TL;DR: There were base class abilities and specialisation abilities. There is no need for specs to differ on literally every single ability.

If you seriously think that the so-called similarity was such a significant issue, making Survival melee was a bad solution. They replaced what was at worst a minor issue with a very major issue (a spec nearly no one likes). There was nothing prohibiting them from making a more unique ranged spec. You're exercising a false dichotomy here.

Also, the skill difference between MM and SV has always been minimal. And once again the ease of Survival wasn't an automatic, unavoidable trait of it being ranged.

Blizzard always had a hard time making them both feel different AND meaningful at the same time.

Then it's their problem. They shouldn't make it the player's problem. They need to get better at it.

Worst comes to worst, having more similar specs is a much, much smaller issue than what we have now with SV. Pros and cons.

Plus, lots of players you call a minority kept asking for Melee Hunter to come back.
A vast majority cries about Vanilla left and right - but apparently forgot to give Blizzard a list of what they don't want back from Vanilla.

It absolutely is a minority, and no one would call the amount of people calling for melee hunters "lots" either. Do a google search for "wow melee hunter" with a custom range of November 2004 to July 2016. You mostly get videos of people trying it out in WotLK and Cata for novelty reasons, and a handful of threads expressing support for it. None of those threads pass 2 pages, and to put it kindly the replies are not in support of the OP. There is a WoWhead thread with 10 pages....but once again pretty much none of the replies support the OP.

Bllizzard kept your ranged Survival - it's called Marksmanship.

Did you just not put a justification for this because you knew it was stupid while writing this, or did you think bolding it was enough?

MM now is nothing like Survival before. I didn't have to stand still to cast aimed shot as Survival ever before. There are no baseline DoTs. It's far more reliant on an RNG proc than Survival ever was, even when considering Lock and Load. A couple Survival abilities exist in a butchered state (lol Explosive Shot). It's slower paced than Survival.

Once again you're of the mindset that it must be the same because it uses a ranged weapon. Once again, that's really dumb.

[Nurvus]

Talents were shared between most classes during MoP and WoD. I agree that most of the abilities were similar with things like Steady/Cobra, that's where they should've place certain abilities in specs that made sense for it.

As for downside you could also argue that SV never had an actual CD compared to MM(Rapid Fire) or BM(Bestial Wrath).

Blizzard wouldn't have such a hard time trying to make the spec feel different if they listen to some of the feedback the community share, that's what feedback is for right?

SV didn't have a cooldown because it was about RNG (Lock & Load) and frontloaded damage.
How do you balance a fully mobile ranged spec with mostly frontloaded damage and barely any ramp up mechanisms?
There was a time when Frost Mages could spam mostly instant casts - Blizzard was cornered with no means to balance them without making their damage shit.

Anyway, that's beside the point.
I like that Blizzard gave Hunters a melee spec.
I wish it was a Melee Beastmastery added as a 4th spec, perhaps called Bestiality, and leaving the other 3 specs alone, refining them.

Instead we got Melee Survival, and that's not going away anytime soon, since Blizzard went so far as to categorize Rexxar as Survival.
So I'm making suggestions to improve current Survival.
Some people rather pollute the thread with useless "make Survival Ranged again" whine.
At least Blizzard had the decency of "trying" to add SV abilities to MM.

No they did not, BA and ES are shells of their former self.

I didn't say they did a good job.
I agree ES is a mockery of its former self.
But BA was never really worth its name - just an ability that used the name for the sake of nostalgia. So I can't say we lost something we never really had.

[threads]

As for downside you could also argue that SV never had an actual CD compared to MM(Rapid Fire) or BM(Bestial Wrath).

uhh SV had rapid fire until WoD when they took it away and then gave up trying to add one during the wod beta.

[xZerocidex]

SV didn't have a cooldown because it was about RNG (Lock & Load) and frontloaded damage.
How do you balance a fully mobile ranged spec with mostly frontloaded damage and barely any ramp up mechanisms?
There was a time when Frost Mages could spam mostly instant casts - Blizzard was cornered with no means to balance them without making their damage shit.

Anyway, that's beside the point.
I like that Blizzard gave Hunters a melee spec.
I wish it was a Melee Beastmastery added as a 4th spec, perhaps called Bestiality, and leaving the other 3 specs alone, refining them.

Instead we got Melee Survival, and that's not going away anytime soon, since Blizzard went so far as to categorize Rexxar as Survival.
So I'm making suggestions to improve current Survival.
Some people rather pollute the thread with useless "make Survival Ranged again" whine.
At least Blizzard had the decency of "trying" to add SV abilities to MM.


I didn't say they did a good job.
I agree ES is a mockery of its former self.
But BA was never really worth its name - just an ability that used the name for the sake of nostalgia. So I can't say we lost something we never really had.

Which was a copout on Blizz's end considering he was labeled as a Beastmaster Hunter at first.

There is no decency when you turn an ability into a shitty skill shot. Outside of BA, ES, and LnL we have no Serpent Sting/Spread as well.

And forgive my ignorance but I'm sure Fury Warriors were reliant on RNG as well until they started getting better gear I believe and they had CDs back then.

uhh SV had rapid fire until WoD when they took it away and then gave up trying to add one during the wod beta.

Which was the point I was trying to make about the lack of CD for SV in WoD.

[Nurvus]

Which was a copout on Blizz's end considering he was labeled as a Beastmaster Hunter at first.

There is no decency when you turn an ability into a shitty skill shot. Outside of BA, ES, and LnL we have no Serpent Sting/Spread as well.

And forgive my ignorance but I'm sure Fury Warriors were reliant on RNG as well until they started getting better gear I believe and they had CDs back then.



Which was the point I was trying to make about the lack of CD for SV in WoD.

I agree Blizzard fucked up.
I live with it.
And I make suggestions that I consider reasonable.
Asking Blizzard to undo everything is infinitely less likely than my already very unlikely suggestions.

[TheCount]

Maybe its just me but having a pet seems a bit clunky as a melee class and one that depends on it(flanking strikes, mastery). I think it would be a much bigger qol thing to remove the pet and really make surv a more of a wild man type figure rather then this "rugged trapper" which imo is just kinda lame.