Disc Priest. Shadow Covenant. Debate.

[lcs]

I always wonder why 99% of healers in this game are pure shit, seeing this thread I now understand. Not only are they incapable of pressing the right buttons in the right order, they also feel the need to invent new gameplay methodologies that only function in their own head and try to persuade the rest of the community to become as shit as them.

This seems like a misunderstanding on your part with regards to how healing works. Unlike DPS classes there is no set in stone rotation for healers to follow. You need to adapt to the immediate state of the fight. There are general priority lists for healers (Disc for example, try to PW:S on cooldown, or penance on or near cooldown), but what separates a good healer from a bad healer is knowing when to deviate from those lists and do something that is not considered valuable.

A bad healer will read the guide and follow it to a tee. They will push the "right buttons" in the "right order" because that is what some guide told them to do.

This entire thread is just sad. Is Shadow Covenant weaker than the other two talents in that tier? Yes, it is. It removes the ability to effectively use atonement for healing. It has the potential to reduce the effectiveness of other healers and can potentially cause deaths due to the absorb mechanic. As with all threads on MMO-Champion though, instead of someone just saying that it devolved into a set of ad hominem attacks and grand standing about logs.

If you want to play Disc optimally, don't take Shadow Covenant, it isn't going to be the most optimal talent for almost every situation (I say almost because I'm sure you could construct some scenario where it is optimal). If you're doing heroic pugs and you for whatever reason don't want to use atonement healing feel free to take Shadow Covenant, at that level of content you're not required to play optimally. Using that talent effectively in that situation though doesn't suddenly make it the optimal choice, but rather only a sub-optimal alternative to the standard build.

[Helelos]

As with all threads on MMO-Champion though, instead of someone just saying that it devolved into a set of ad hominem attacks and grand standing about logs.

Such is the fate of a circlejerk. I can argue about disc having poor design choices (tons of downtime, ridiculous mana costs, thus strongly needing innervates) and get blue in the face, but the real issue I have is that disc is boring to play. It's just boring in raids because the fights are heavily scripted and you don't have filler spells like in previous expansions.

Shadow Covenant was an afterthought spell though, much like Shadow Word: Void or other spells that serve no purpose.

[Yunzi]

CoW was good in WoD, not only for tank healing for reducing overheal but for healing anyone who's temporarily a "tank" - anyone who takes consistent damage over a short amount of time (such as damage debuffed players), as well as giving them additional effective health to blanket large incoming damage.

Let's modify what the WoD PWS camp is saying to make it more sensible - IF your healing composition is such that tank healing is largely covered (ala one or especially two holy paladins) then CoW isn't needed on the tank and only in rare cases (such as Kilrogg in the other realm) is desirable as an alternative to PWS spam/flash heal triage.

We've actually been through this conversation back in WoD, but the ongoing arrogance of certain people reduces their memory as well as their consideration of the words of others. Therefore that conversation doesn't exist, WoD CoW is terrible and should only be used to cheese mechanics, and PWS spam is the holy grail of WoD Disc gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -

Shadow Covenant was an afterthought spell though, much like Shadow Word: Void or other spells that serve no purpose.

That's not at all true. The major purpose of Shadow Covenant is to provide Discs a reactionary multi-player heal to complement the single-target Shadow Mend. A lesser purpose is to help ease new Discs into the spec, since reactionary healing is the common healing style which most World of Warcraft healers are used to.

Let's be frank about why Shadow Covenant is disliked in this community - what might be called the "play Holy, you fucking scrub" reason - Discs congratulate themselves on their preparatory healing, Power Word: Radiance is the primary tool in that healing style, and Shadow Covenant does not cooexist with that. Shadow Covenant makes Discs like every other healer.

Many Discs on these forums don't want to be like every other healer - they want to be special - PWR allows them to feel special while SC does not.

I'm concerned with the Helya fight, I'm very concerned with Nighthold encounters of which it's highly likely that one or more will be better suited to reactionary healing than preparatory healing, and I don't care whether I feel special or not. I want to know what's optimal not only in general, not 80% of the time, not if I'm raiding with a certain healer spec composition, but the rest of the time as well.

[Gob]

What if Shadow Covenant were changed from "Heal 200k and leave a 100k heal absorb" to "Heal 100k and leave a 100k damage absorb that lasts until healed for 100k, and then after 6 seconds heals up to 100k depending on how few heals they got?"

[Deleted]

shadow covenant is the last remaining spell that is true to the disc philosophy of fucking over other healers and if you don't take it you are probably a legionbaby who doesn't know how to really play discipline

[Supliftz]

I'm concerned with the Helya fight, I'm very concerned with Nighthold encounters of which it's highly likely that one or more will be better suited to reactionary healing than preparatory healing, and I don't care whether I feel special or not. I want to know what's optimal not only in general, not 80% of the time, not if I'm raiding with a certain healer spec composition, but the rest of the time as well.

Have you ever done the helya encounter? Quite literally all the raid damage is on a timer. You know when it all happens. Same with the movement of the phase. The only thing that's truly random is if you have taint of the sea, and need to move for dispels. Once you abuse orb immunity to your advantage, the fight is amazing for disc priest (b4 nerfs).

- - - Updated - - -

Such is the fate of a circlejerk. I can argue about disc having poor design choices (tons of downtime, ridiculous mana costs, thus strongly needing innervates) and get blue in the face, but the real issue I have is that disc is boring to play. It's just boring in raids because the fights are heavily scripted and you don't have filler spells like in previous expansions.

Shadow Covenant was an afterthought spell though, much like Shadow Word: Void or other spells that serve no purpose.

So any counter-argument is a circlejerk? Does this mean from my point of view, you're circlejerking about supposed problems?

[Helelos]

"When a bunch of blowhards - usually politicians - get together for a debate but usually end up agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy, stroking each other's egos as if they were extensions of their genitals (ergo, the mastubatory insinuation). Basically, it's what happens when the choir preaches to itself."

It's the usual "OP says something that goes against the grain of the competitive community and gets shit on" as apposed to "here is why this is incorrect". It can go either way, but mmo-champ is full of circle-jerks.

[Supliftz]

"When a bunch of blowhards - usually politicians - get together for a debate but usually end up agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy, stroking each other's egos as if they were extensions of their genitals (ergo, the mastubatory insinuation). Basically, it's what happens when the choir preaches to itself."

It's the usual "OP says something that goes against the grain of the competitive community and gets shit on" as apposed to "here is why this is incorrect". It can go either way, but mmo-champ is full of circle-jerks.

You seem to be of the belief that someone with a different opinion automatically means they have the correct opinion.

If I went on the druid forum right now and made a post asking for a 20% buff to rejuv because i'm playing sub-optimally who would be right? Me or the good druids telling me that I'm wrong?

[PosPosPos]

It's the usual "OP says something that goes against the grain of the competitive community and gets shit on" as apposed to "here is why this is incorrect". It can go either way, but mmo-champ is full of circle-jerks.

Insinuating that these two must somehow be mutually exclusive. If I called you an idiot then recited the laws of physics, then according to you it's "agreeing with each other's viewpoints to the point of redundancy" and "when the choir preaches to itself", right?

[vertigo12]

Shadow Covenant

Analyzing the talents on the 3rd row of each talent tier, pretty much the third column is solid when in terms of thematic san Halo.
Schism,Masochism, Psychic Voice and Dominant Mind, Mindbender, Twist of Fate, and finally Shadow Covenant.


Discipline Priest like Balance Druid requires deep knowledge of polarities and with that understanding comes mastery of using opposite power. Light and Darkness, of mustering pain either to cause it or enduring it. This has been the theme of Discipline priest and above all class we are the ones who should be familiar with what pain is.

Wielding the shadow comes at a price and need discipline as it would backfire and lash out on you if you fail to master it well. Others become insane and gone out of their minds or complete becomes evil.
This can be seen with Talents such as Masochism Shadow Mend producing a burst heal with hot on yourself producing 7.5 + 3.75 x your Spell Power.

Twist of Fate tests your mettle of understanding pain and acknowledging that the most painful situations rewards intensive healing to be bestowed as an act of Mercy and that we priest must not be conceited of evil doers causing harm for there comes a price that judgement of the wicked will be penalized by penance and smitten accordingly.

Shadow Covenant is a pact with darkness as darkness dims light, it engulfs any shimmer. But used correctly that darkness will be that same cause for light shine brightly once more.

Technically SM's dot is analogous to SC healing absorb both reduces healing throughput but correctly use results optimal gains. One positive side of SC is it prevents overhealing which as well all know is a waste and inefficiency.
, Artifact traits,

[kouby]

This seems like a misunderstanding on your part with regards to how healing works. Unlike DPS classes there is no set in stone rotation for healers to follow. You need to adapt to the immediate state of the fight. There are general priority lists for healers (Disc for example, try to PW:S on cooldown, or penance on or near cooldown), but what separates a good healer from a bad healer is knowing when to deviate from those lists and do something that is not considered valuable.

A bad healer will read the guide and follow it to a tee. They will push the "right buttons" in the "right order" because that is what some guide told them to do.

This entire thread is just sad. Is Shadow Covenant weaker than the other two talents in that tier? Yes, it is. It removes the ability to effectively use atonement for healing. It has the potential to reduce the effectiveness of other healers and can potentially cause deaths due to the absorb mechanic. As with all threads on MMO-Champion though, instead of someone just saying that it devolved into a set of ad hominem attacks and grand standing about logs.

If you want to play Disc optimally, don't take Shadow Covenant, it isn't going to be the most optimal talent for almost every situation (I say almost because I'm sure you could construct some scenario where it is optimal). If you're doing heroic pugs and you for whatever reason don't want to use atonement healing feel free to take Shadow Covenant, at that level of content you're not required to play optimally. Using that talent effectively in that situation though doesn't suddenly make it the optimal choice, but rather only a sub-optimal alternative to the standard build.

Link me a log where you're over 90% percentile and I'll stop laughing. Until then I'll continue considering you a tool trying to justify his lack of performance.

[lcs]

Link me a log where you're over 90% percentile and I'll stop laughing. Until then I'll continue considering you a tool trying to justify his lack of performance.

This implies that there needs to be some kind of justification for their performance. That is really up to them and the people they raid with isn't it?

I don't think you fully comprehended what I wrote, I didn't try to justify anything there. I simply stated that if someone wants to run Shadow Covenant they should feel free to do so, but it won't be as optimal as PtW or Grace.

[Smashley]

This entire thread is about OP theorycrafting in his head and other Disc priests explaining the myriad of reasons *why* it doesn't work like that and then a bunch of diehard contrarians coming in to whine about a supposed anti-imagination circle-jerk conspiracy.

[Melchey]

This entire thread is about OP theorycrafting in his head and other Disc priests explaining the myriad of reasons *why* it doesn't work like that and then a bunch of diehard contrarians coming in to whine about a supposed anti-imagination circle-jerk conspiracy.

do you know what website you're on?

[MendUS]

CoW was good in WoD, not only for tank healing for reducing overheal but for healing anyone who's temporarily a "tank" - anyone who takes consistent damage over a short amount of time (such as damage debuffed players), as well as giving them additional effective health to blanket large incoming damage.

Let's modify what the WoD PWS camp is saying to make it more sensible - IF your healing composition is such that tank healing is largely covered (ala one or especially two holy paladins) then CoW isn't needed on the tank and only in rare cases (such as Kilrogg in the other realm) is desirable as an alternative to PWS spam/flash heal triage.

We've actually been through this conversation back in WoD, but the ongoing arrogance of certain people reduces their memory as well as their consideration of the words of others. Therefore that conversation doesn't exist, WoD CoW is terrible and should only be used to cheese mechanics, and PWS spam is the holy grail of WoD Disc gameplay.

- - - Updated - - -



That's not at all true. The major purpose of Shadow Covenant is to provide Discs a reactionary multi-player heal to complement the single-target Shadow Mend. A lesser purpose is to help ease new Discs into the spec, since reactionary healing is the common healing style which most World of Warcraft healers are used to.

Let's be frank about why Shadow Covenant is disliked in this community - what might be called the "play Holy, you fucking scrub" reason - Discs congratulate themselves on their preparatory healing, Power Word: Radiance is the primary tool in that healing style, and Shadow Covenant does not cooexist with that. Shadow Covenant makes Discs like every other healer.

Many Discs on these forums don't want to be like every other healer - they want to be special - PWR allows them to feel special while SC does not.

I'm concerned with the Helya fight, I'm very concerned with Nighthold encounters of which it's highly likely that one or more will be better suited to reactionary healing than preparatory healing, and I don't care whether I feel special or not. I want to know what's optimal not only in general, not 80% of the time, not if I'm raiding with a certain healer spec composition, but the rest of the time as well.

If anyone wants to feel special, it's you. You're going against the accepted way of playing just because you "feel" it's better. In reality, Shadow Covenant is a terrible spell and we all know that.

[Ahili]

Link me a log where you're over 90% percentile and I'll stop laughing. Until then I'll continue considering you a tool trying to justify his lack of performance.

warcraft logs: /rankings/character/1052239/10/#metric=hps&bracket=-1

I have definitely gotten over 90 percentile. I haven't gone through all of the motions to create my own pug to min-max my healing though.

[PosPosPos]

warcraft logs: /rankings/character/1052239/10/#metric=hps&bracket=-1

I have definitely gotten over 90 percentile. I haven't gone through all of the motions to create my own pug to min-max my healing though.

Did you first remember to cut off all the healing absorbs from your output before you came here showing off your new toy?

[Yunzi]

I'll be testing out Shadow Covenant in fights that should be favorable for it until Nighthold comes out. Once I get enough data I'll post about it.

[MendUS]

Link me a log where you're over 90% percentile and I'll stop laughing. Until then I'll continue considering you a tool trying to justify his lack of performance.

Actually, Shadow Covenant can parse 99th percentile easily, but that doesn't mean it's a good talent.

[Noxiqe]

Technically SM's dot is analogous to SC healing absorb both reduces healing throughput but correctly use results optimal gains. One positive side of SC is it prevents overhealing which as well all know is a waste and inefficiency.

No its not. Shadow Mends DoT gets chipped away if the target takes damage, Shadow Covenants absorb has to either be healed away or the debuff has to be waited out.

Shadow Mend is a "375% SP heal" with an aditional 375% SP "damage absorb" so to speak. If you heal the target and he immidiately takes damage equal to the DoT, you've effectivly gained a 375% SP shield from it.

Shadow Covenant heals for 550% SP but leaves a HEALING absorb, which is the dangerous part.