Electoral College voted Trump

[Tijuana]

I've asked you for evidence every time I've seen you bring up this stupid little theory of yours, on other threads. But go ahead: show me something that proves your point. Any kind of real, non-anecdotal evidence that Trump supporters being called mean names actually influenced the election.



Yes, fake news polls including the ones done by Breitbart and the GOP.

Sure, this is easy. Look at the polls. Look at the votes. Boom. Done.

What is your explanation of the disparity, if it's not that Trump voters were reluctant to admit it? You keep telling me I'm wrong, why not tell me what you think the cause was? Why attack my ideas, when you can simply provide your own, better ideas?

[Jeezy911]

I've asked you for evidence every time I've seen you bring up this stupid little theory of yours, on other threads. But go ahead: show me something that proves your point. Any kind of real, non-anecdotal evidence that Trump supporters being called mean names actually influenced the election.



Yes, fake news polls including the ones done by Breitbart and the GOP.

So you telling me that establishment GOP had it wrong too? Wow that's amazing.

[Tijuana]

So you telling me that establishment GOP had it wrong too? Wow that's amazing.

Come on man...

Everyone's polls were wrong. The Turtle even said he expected the GOP to lose seats in the Senate.

[LaserSharkDFB]

Sure, this is easy. Look at the polls. Look at the votes. Boom. Done.

What is your explanation of the disparity, if it's not that Trump voters were reluctant to admit it? You keep telling me I'm wrong, why not tell me what you think the cause was? Why attack my ideas, when you can simply provide your own, better ideas?

...dammit, Tijuana, I know you're smarter than this. Your post-hoc justification is not proof, and is hugely unlikely on the face of it. And I already gave you my ideas, which are in fact better, but sure, let's go through the possibilities.

1) The polls did not show all of Trump's support, because Trump lied about the election being rigged, and that made his followers avoid being polled.

- Trump definitely said the election process was 'rigged', by which he apparently meant it was being manipulated by the media. This was a lie, or at best something he had absolutely no evidence to support, and one he pounded in repeatedly, to the point that 73% of Republicans believed it. Is it reasonable to assume that this would have an effect on polling, as people who think a system is being manipulated are less likely to engage in said process? I would say yes.

2) The polls showed more support for Clinton than actually voted because:
2A) Documents hacked from the DNC and Podesta were released via Wikileaks, and even though they did not reveal anything illegal or much that was particularly substantial, they were enough to drive down enthusiasm for Clinton, and
2B) The FBI broke with tradition and declared they were investigating emails that may have been (but ultimately were not) related to the Clinton emails, which also drove down enthusiasm.

- With these happening right before an election, with an already unappealing candidate and a historically low predicted turnout, the damage done to Clinton was fatal. Trump only won by a very narrow margin in most states, and in several cases the votes for third party candidates would have meant a win for Clinton if they had gone her way. Anything that drove voters to another party or to stay home was something that would most likely be in Trump's favor. And before anyone starts blubbing about how the emails were legitimate, this isn't about that; this is about why the polls were wrong.

So, those are my ideas, and they are based in evidence and logic. Your theory, however, appears to be this:

"People who would normally support Trump or already supported Trump didn't like being called names, so they supported Trump as hard as they could until he won."

There isn't really a logical line between 'Clinton said half of Trump's supporters are deplorable' and 'I'm not going to answer this anonymous poll.' The emotion that drove people to not answer polls wasn't shame, it was spite.

[Tijuana]

...dammit, Tijuana, I know you're smarter than this. Your post-hoc justification is not proof, and is hugely unlikely on the face of it. And I already gave you my ideas, which are in fact better, but sure, let's go through the possibilities.

1) The polls did not show all of Trump's support, because Trump lied about the election being rigged, and that made his followers avoid being polled.

- Trump definitely said the election process was 'rigged', by which he apparently meant it was being manipulated by the media. This was a lie, or at best something he had absolutely no evidence to support, and one he pounded in repeatedly, to the point that 73% of Republicans believed it. Is it reasonable to assume that this would have an effect on polling, as people who think a system is being manipulated are less likely to engage in said process? I would say yes.

2) The polls showed more support for Clinton than actually voted because:
2A) Documents hacked from the DNC and Podesta were released via Wikileaks, and even though they did not reveal anything illegal or much that was particularly substantial, they were enough to drive down enthusiasm for Clinton, and
2B) The FBI broke with tradition and declared they were investigating emails that may have been (but ultimately were not) related to the Clinton emails, which also drove down enthusiasm.

- With these happening right before an election, with an already unappealing candidate and a historically low predicted turnout, the damage done to Clinton was fatal. Trump only won by a very narrow margin in most states, and in several cases the votes for third party candidates would have meant a win for Clinton if they had gone her way. Anything that drove voters to another party or to stay home was something that would most likely be in Trump's favor. And before anyone starts blubbing about how the emails were legitimate, this isn't about that; this is about why the polls were wrong.

So, those are my ideas, and they are based in evidence and logic. Your theory, however, appears to be this:

"People who would normally support Trump or already supported Trump didn't like being called names, so they supported Trump as hard as they could until he won."

There isn't really a logical line between 'Clinton said half of Trump's supporters are deplorable' and 'I'm not going to answer this anonymous poll.' The emotion that drove people to not answer polls wasn't shame, it was spite.

So your first point agrees with my entire point. Do you even rebuttal, bro? Yeah, people lied to the pollsters. This is my point. We can disagree WHY they did this, but we can never really know. I think my notion that it was due to being excoriated when they did, is stronger than yours, however. We are both welcome to our own opinions.

Also, I agree that I'm better than this. I'm too sexy for this forum, too sexy for this forum...

The one problem with what you say, is that Hillary was still up in the polls on election day, and exit polling was predicting a landslide as well.

You seem to be giving reasons for why she lost, not why the polls were wrong. That's pretty strange...

[sgthotrod]

Democrats have lost 900 seats in state legislatures since Obama has been in office. Clearly this goes beyond who won the presidency.

[Tijuana]

Democrats have lost 900 seats in state legislatures since Obama has been in office. Clearly this goes beyond who won the presidency.

The last figure I heard was 1500 for all levels of government. But yeah, having no state power will not lead to gaining power in Washington. The young politicians have to come from somewhere.

[Fugus]

Democrats have lost 900 seats in state legislatures since Obama has been in office. Clearly this goes beyond who won the presidency.

It does, it goes well beyond it.

You also have to look at what Obama had done, he attacked whistleblowers and their protections while most the DNC sat back and refused to do anything about it.

Then you have to look at what the Republicans have done, they filibustered over 500 times during his term and shut the entire nation down twice. They did everything they could and sold this nation out multiple times putting their party politics above the best interests of this nation multiple times like sniveling spiteful children wanting to destroy something if they can't have it or at the very least damage it so they could blame the other guy. They also blamed him multiple times for the stuff, most of which is stuff they did or stuff Bush did that he wasn't able to clean up between their filibustering everything no matter if it helped the nation or not. That gave you a few uninformed who honestly drank that koolaid and blamed Obama and the Democrats for those actions and responded by voting for the party who was actually responsible for them.

Then you had this election where Clinton basically threw a grenade down ballot trying to become president where she took both the funding of the DNC where they couldn't fund as much for the local stuff while at the same time doing everything they could to run off Sanders supporters and even disgusted a section of her own supporters with her actions which lead to millions staying home killing not only the presidential votes but also the down ballots as well.

There is plenty of reason for the seats but almost all of them still revolved around either Clinton screwing the voters and also the other democrats taking all the funding and diverting it to her campaign and screwing the voters trying to chase donors instead and the Republicans playing scorched earth with the nation and blaming it on Obama and the Democrats.

[LaserSharkDFB]

So your first point agrees with my entire point. Do you even rebuttal, bro? Yeah, people lied to the pollsters. This is my point. We can disagree WHY they did this, but we can never really know. I think my notion that it was due to being excoriated when they did, is stronger than yours, however. We are both welcome to our own opinions.

Also, I agree that I'm better than this. I'm too sexy for this forum, too sexy for this forum...

The one problem with what you say, is that Hillary was still up in the polls on election day, and exit polling was predicting a landslide as well.

You seem to be giving reasons for why she lost, not why the polls were wrong. That's pretty strange...

Funny how you changed your point from 'Trump supporters didn't answer polls because of mean words' to just 'Trump supporters didn't answer polls' as soon as I pointed out how nonsensical the former is. I'm sure that means you'll stop pushing that useless and wrong line of reasoning from now on.

[Tijuana]

It does, it goes well beyond it.

You also have to look at what Obama had done, he attacked whistleblowers and their protections while most the DNC sat back and refused to do anything about it.

Then you have to look at what the Republicans have done, they filibustered over 500 times during his term and shut the entire nation down twice. They did everything they could and sold this nation out multiple times putting their party politics above the best interests of this nation multiple times like sniveling spiteful children wanting to destroy something if they can't have it or at the very least damage it so they could blame the other guy. They also blamed him multiple times for the stuff, most of which is stuff they did or stuff Bush did that he wasn't able to clean up between their filibustering everything no matter if it helped the nation or not. That gave you a few uninformed who honestly drank that koolaid and blamed Obama and the Democrats for those actions and responded by voting for the party who was actually responsible for them.

Then you had this election where Clinton basically threw a grenade down ballot trying to become president where she took both the funding of the DNC where they couldn't fund as much for the local stuff while at the same time doing everything they could to run off Sanders supporters and even disgusted a section of her own supporters with her actions which lead to millions staying home killing not only the presidential votes but also the down ballots as well.

There is plenty of reason for the seats but almost all of them still revolved around either Clinton screwing the voters and also the other democrats taking all the funding and diverting it to her campaign and screwing the voters trying to chase donors instead and the Republicans playing scorched earth with the nation and blaming it on Obama and the Democrats.

Yeah, she lost because two billion dollars just wasn't enough. Maybe if she had 3 billion, or 4...

Identity politics is destroying your base. Doubling down on it will not work out well. Doubling down on coastal elitism will not work out well.

[Fugus]

Yeah, she lost because two billion dollars just wasn't enough. Maybe if she had 3 billion, or 4...

Identity politics is destroying your base. Doubling down on it will not work out well. Doubling down on coastal elitism will not work out well.

Again, not a Democrat and you just ignored the entire post and responded to a false assumption of yours. Try again and actually read it this time. Never did I say Clinton lost because of lack of funding. Stop projecting and respond to what was actually posted instead of arguing against the words never spoken.

[Tijuana]

I'm moving this article to here, since according to moderators, it somehow has something to do with the EC, and was closed for that reason. Watch, now they will tell me that this is off topic for the EC thread. You can't win when bias is the status quo.

Here is my response to the Slate article, “So We’re Still Blaming Jill Stein and James Comey, Huh?”

This is a partial list of the things I blame, ranked.

1-199. MISOGYNY

This is why they chant “lock her up” and “Trump that b*tch.” It’s why people can’t quite put a finger on it, but they just don’t like the cut of her jib. It’s why they see her as shrill and scolding and corrupt ― not sufficiently warm, not the kind of person they want to grab a beer with. It’s why, following a tried-and-true pop culture paradigm — from Lady Macbeth to Claire Underwood — they see her as hungry for power and willing to do anything — even murder — to get what she wants. It’s why 2016’s answer to most election-related questions is, “It’s the misogyny, stupid!”

200. BERNIE SANDERS

I know this is going to piss a lot of people off, but so be it. I think Sanders, who fortified the recurring narrative that Hillary was a corrupt neoliberal and part of a rigged system, did more damage than anyone else. He turned millions of young people against Hillary — and countless independents, no doubt, too.

Yes, he ultimately campaigned for Hillary, but did so half-heartedly, through pursed lips and slumped body language, bashing Trump but rarely praising Hillary. One could almost see the thought bubble over his head: “This should’ve been me.”

201. FAKE NEWS

This, like almost everything on this list, is a subset of the misogyny. But these were among the stories that were circulating on the web — and that people believed — about Hillary Clinton during the campaign.

She’s got Parkinson’s or MS and is covering it up.
She has a body double, whom she trots out when she is too ill to appear in public
She murdered a DNC staffer, among many others
She exchanged “signals” with Lester Holt from the debate stage.
She runs a child pedophilia ring out of pizza parlor in D.C. (And as we saw this weekend, this kind of fake news can have real consequences.)
I could go on…

202. JAMES COMEY

When FBI director James Comey announced that his office would not be filing charges against Hillary Clinton, he did it in the most scolding, damning language possible. His statement, where he called her “extremely careless,” was unprecedented. Nonetheless, the Clinton campaign took this embarrassing public reproach and thanked him, happy the whole thing was behind them. Oh, if only they had been so lucky. Not content to have damaged her reputation with his public statement, Comey waited until 11 days before the election to announce that he was reopening the case, investigating new emails related to Anthony Weiner. (The Weiner bit was a particularly damning touch, reminding people of Bill’s infidelities.)

As the Trump campaign celebrated and gloated — and Americans were essentially told: This is who Clinton is, a woman who will be forever dogged by scandal — a hasty release was issued a day before the election, clearing Clinton (again!) of all wrongdoing (the emails on Weiner’s server were duplicates). This was the biggest November Surprise in the history of November Surprises and it never should’ve happened.

203. RUSSIA/WIKILEAKS

I love how we’re all pretending that Russia didn’t have a clear horse in the race — Trump — and didn’t do, what seems to be, everything in their power — hacking the DNC, hacking John Podesta, disseminating fake news — to get him elected. While we weren’t looking, Russia just won an information war against us.

204. THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA

Eventually, they got better at calling out Trump for his lies, incompetence and corruption, but they continued to act as though Hillary’s emails were an equally big deal (they spent like three times as much time discussing her emails as they did on all of her policy proposals combined), and continued to let Trump’s surrogates run roughshod over cable news, assassinating Hillary’s character (remember the handcuffs?) and lying about her, smugly, sanctimoniously, and with impunity. Quite simply, the media failed us.

205. JILL STEIN

That publicity-seeking, bourgeois woman gave disenchanted Bernie or Busters a place for their protest vote, and continued the absurd narrative that Hillary was just as bad as Trump.

Yes, this matters, despite snide Slate articles suggesting otherwise:

205a. You’re on my list too, Susan Sarandon.

206. THE CLOSE TO 100 MILLION WHO DIDN’T VOTE

What the hell is wrong with you people?

207. VOTER SUPPRESSION

Some people who wanted to vote couldn’t. Without the protections of the Voting Rights Act, Republicans were able to suppress the vote in several key states.

208. HILLARY’S MESSAGE

Bernie made promises: Free college! Trump made promises: Build that wall! Save American jobs! But Hillary, a policy wonk who understands the nature of incremental change, could never bring herself to spout slogans. I don’t think she should’ve made false promises, necessarily, but perhaps a few concrete soundbites would’ve gone a long way.

209. HILLARY’S CAMPAIGN

They should’ve had her hold rallies in Wisconsin. They took their eye off the ball.

210. HILLARY’S SUPPORTERS

We took to the corners of the Internet for a variety of reasons — mostly because of (duh) the misogyny. But we should’ve been louder and prouder and worn our allegiance in public, shutting down the narrative that we were unenthusiastic. I was a pretty public supporter. But that being said, I can’t tell you how many times I expressed my devotion to Hillary — and my anger at the unfair, widespread anti-Hillary tactics — in a locked FB group when I should’ve been screaming it from the rafters.

Things I don’t blame:

1. HILLARY HERSELF.

She won every debate. She came up with well thought out, concrete plans to govern. She carried herself with dignity and grace, despite all the endless, misogynist shit that was hurled at her. She was nothing short of heroic.

2. IDENTITY POLITICS

Because seriously, fu*k that.

The best part of this list, is the end where the writer claims that the only reasons that are not legitimate, is that Hillary or identity politics were to blame.

[Wells]

Oh you found an article on the internet you don't like. That's something we all need to see.

[Tijuana]

Oh you found an article on the internet you don't like. That's something we all need to see.

Nobody said you could speak.

We were discussing it just fine, until it was determined somehow to magically be an electoral college thread. I guess we are running low on pixels here at MMO-C, and they need to be conserved, or.....something.

[Blur4stuff]

Some of those reasons certainly cost Hillary some votes. she got what, 2.8 mil more votes that Trump? So it comes down to thousands of votes in a handful of states for the EC. Take away wikileaks, Comey, etc... and it could have easily meant the difference in some of those states.

I don't think her corruption or past actions can be blamed since Trump is guilty of worse behavior both professionally and personally.

[Wells]

Some of those reasons certainly cost Hillary some votes. she got what, 2.8 mil more votes that Trump? So it comes down to thousands of votes in a handful of states for the EC. Take away wikileaks, Comey, etc... and it could have easily meant the difference in some of those states.

I don't think her corruption or past actions can be blamed since Trump is guilty of worse behavior both professionally and personally.

Yeah when the margin of victory is so narrow there's a million different things you could point to that could all plausibly make the difference.

[Theodarzna]

Screaming Brooklyn lawyer chases down Ivanka Trump and yells at her as she sits with her kids on flight - and his Hillary supporter husband BOASTS about the verbal attack before they're kicked off

Ivanka Trump made it very clear on Thursday that she has no problem staying cool and calm under pressure.

The 35-year-old mother-of-three was travelling with her children on a JetBlue flight when a man began to accost her.

'Your father is ruining the country,' said Dan Goldstein, a lawyer from Brooklyn, who had a child in his arms according to TMZ.

Goldstein then began screaming out: 'Why is she on our flight. She should be flying private.'

Ivanka paid as little attention as possible and tried to preoccupy her children with some crayons to diffuse the situation until the crew escorted him off the plane, which was making a nonstop trip to Honolulu.

Goldstein's husband, Matthew Lasner, said that was not what happened however on Twitter, writing: 'My husband expressed his displeasure in a calm tone, JetBlue staff overheard, and they kicked us off the plane.'

However. just an hour prior to that Lasner wrote on Twitter: 'Ivanka and Jared at JFK T5, flying commercial. My husband chasing them down to harass them. #banalityofevil'

Lassner also took a photo of Ivanka sitting on the plane writing that they were kicked off for 'expressing displeasure about flying w/ Trumps.'

And while Goldstein was happy to go after Ivanka ,and Lasner was eager to defend his actions, neither of the men confronted Ivanka's husband Jared Kushner, who was right next to her on the flight standing in the aisle the entire time.

(source)

Liberalism is a religion of peace!

[Tijuana]

Some of those reasons certainly cost Hillary some votes. she got what, 2.8 mil more votes that Trump? So it comes down to thousands of votes in a handful of states for the EC. Take away wikileaks, Comey, etc... and it could have easily meant the difference in some of those states.

I don't think her corruption or past actions can be blamed since Trump is guilty of worse behavior both professionally and personally.

If she got more votes than Trump, how did Russians steal the election? It would seem what they did, did not in fact work.

[Wells]

Screaming Brooklyn lawyer chases down Ivanka Trump and yells at her as she sits with her kids on flight - and his Hillary supporter husband BOASTS about the verbal attack before they're kicked off


(source)

Liberalism is a religion of peace!

Won't someone think of the wealthy beneficiaries of nepotism!?

[Tijuana]

Screaming Brooklyn lawyer chases down Ivanka Trump and yells at her as she sits with her kids on flight - and his Hillary supporter husband BOASTS about the verbal attack before they're kicked off


(source)

Liberalism is a religion of peace!

When you let your head get filled full of lies, it's easy to dehumanize others. I can't wait for the Democrat party to finish it's slow, painful death. Hopefully the next Liberal party to come along will behave like adults. I refuse to accept this cancerous behavior is somehow tied to ideology.