MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[Doffen]

I don't know why I let myself get drawn into these idiotic conversations. Congrats on making me fall into the same trap that Megataku has.

Ok, you want to look at the table below. The one where 2300 more players have decided to play a certain spec as opposed to another. For reference, that's 2485 Fire mage parses to 185 Affliction Lock. That in and of itself should tell you something.

And holy shit stop looking at the average parses, which is where you are getting your numbers from. When you have THOUSANDS more parses of a particular spec, of which there are going to be way more terrible players contributing to that number to drag it down, you end up with this inaccurate representation of what a spec is capable of. In that case the max output is what you need to look at to answer the question of "if I play well, what is this spec capable of". Those kinds of questions are what good players ask themselves and are able to answer when they determine what to play. When something is 70-200k more than another at top performance, like fire mage to affliction lock, there is no comparison there.

Thats the big flaw right there, you check player damage where they could cheese mechanics, do extra aoe, lucky with rng etc, thats not a good measure on how good the spec is.

I did 650k dps as a mm hunter on Dragons hc last week, I was ilvl 870, and 27 traits in the weapon, the weapon is 892. If we killed it(was 40mill away, it was in a pug) I would be ranked 1. at my ilvl. But how did I do that? I did that cause the last 20% of the boss it was me, 1 more dps, 2 healers and 1 tank left. I also got the aoe belt legendary. And did nuke the shit out of the adds together with the boss alone.

That example is an outlier, and not telling you how good a specc is. Thats why you look on overall(average) dps for each boss. Stop checking player damage rankings. It doesnt tell you shit.

There, I brought MM hunter into the discussion, its the last warcraftlog post from me in this thread

[Nairesha]

Thats the big flaw right there, you check player damage where they could cheese mechanics, do extra aoe, lucky with rng etc, thats not a good measure on how good the spec is.

I did 650k dps as a mm hunter on Dragons hc last week, I was ilvl 870, and 27 traits in the weapon, the weapon is 892. If we killed it(was 40mill away, it was in a pug) I would be ranked 1. at my ilvl. But how did I do that? I did that cause the last 20% of the boss it was me, 1 more dps, 2 healers and 1 tank left. I also got the aoe belt legendary. And did nuke the shit out of the adds together with the boss alone.

That example is an outlier, and not telling you how good a specc is. Thats why you look on overall(average) dps for each boss. Stop checking player damage rankings. It doesnt tell you shit.

There, I brought MM hunter into the discussion, its the last warcraftlog post from me in this thread

This. This should be sent as a "memo" to every hunter player (and some raid leaders). The RNG in Legion (aside from the factor of adds/no adds etc) are ridiculous, depending on the Legendary. I only got the ring and the cloak, so stats, that's it.
So even if I give it my best, I lack behind my fellow hunters with belt and shoes.

[Mavick]

Thats the big flaw right there, you check player damage where they could cheese mechanics, do extra aoe, lucky with rng etc, thats not a good measure on how good the spec is.

I did 650k dps as a mm hunter on Dragons hc last week, I was ilvl 870, and 27 traits in the weapon, the weapon is 892. If we killed it(was 40mill away, it was in a pug) I would be ranked 1. at my ilvl. But how did I do that? I did that cause the last 20% of the boss it was me, 1 more dps, 2 healers and 1 tank left. I also got the aoe belt legendary. And did nuke the shit out of the adds together with the boss alone.

That example is an outlier, and not telling you how good a specc is. Thats why you look on overall(average) dps for each boss. Stop checking player damage rankings. It doesnt tell you shit.

There, I brought MM hunter into the discussion, its the last warcraftlog post from me in this thread

Oh really? And what exactly are they going to "cheese" on Guarm? Do tell. Besides just getting lucky/unlucky with breath location (causing more/less movement), you're not really able to do much to improve your dps unlike on a fight like, say, Ilg'ynoth. And I'm not looking at one single parse here either, I'm looking at all the top parses for both, and it shows that pretty much across the board one spec is flat out superior to the other. Even in your beloved average parses they have an advantage.

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that Megatku was calling many of you out for. You will literally construct any reason whatsoever in your minds to justify what is just simply your gut feeling, and nothing more.

[ydraw]

Oh really? And what exactly are they going to "cheese" on Guarm? Do tell. Besides just getting lucky/unlucky with breath location (causing more/less movement), you're not really able to do much to improve your dps unlike on a fight like, say, Ilg'ynoth. And I'm not looking at one single parse here either, I'm looking at all the top parses for both, and it shows that pretty much across the board one spec is flat out superior to the other. Even in your beloved average parses they have an advantage.

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that Megatku was calling many of you out for. You will literally construct any reason whatsoever in your minds to justify what is just simply your gut feeling, and nothing more.

I just looked at mythic Guarm and BM is higher on average than MM on that fight. So tell me again who is constructing things in their mind?

[Mavick]

I just looked at mythic Guarm and BM is higher on average than MM on that fight. So tell me again who is constructing things in their mind?

By all means, continue to think that actually means something of significance.

[Madwolf]

Guarm is a good indication of who does top DPS on "stand there and dps fights." On more traditional, mobile fights the story might be different.

[Doffen]

Oh really? And what exactly are they going to "cheese" on Guarm? Do tell. Besides just getting lucky/unlucky with breath location (causing more/less movement), you're not really able to do much to improve your dps unlike on a fight like, say, Ilg'ynoth. And I'm not looking at one single parse here either, I'm looking at all the top parses for both, and it shows that pretty much across the board one spec is flat out superior to the other. Even in your beloved average parses they have an advantage.

This is exactly the kind of bullshit that Megatku was calling many of you out for. You will literally construct any reason whatsoever in your minds to justify what is just simply your gut feeling, and nothing more.

Yes, you are correct sir. I have no problem admitting that. Just that there is only 3 freakin ST target fights atm. Is that the only thing that matters? NO!

And suddenly the overall damage counts now and not the player damage statistic? Get over yourself. You find one boss and try to turn that around to make it a point, just to ignore the rest.

By all means, continue to think that actually means something of significance.

But he is right, BM is better than MM on ST. Out of the said 3 ST fights, BM is above MM on 2. And now you say that doesn't matter? Are you a troll or what? You change whatever point you try to prove just to ignore everything else.

I am done trying to discuss with you. Good riddance.

[Mavick]

The entire front page of MM on Guarm is 30 hunters breaking 500k+ (with a top of 550k) and bottoming out on the page around 480k. BM has 4 parses that barely get over 500k and bottoms out around 437k. But no, you must have cracked the code, and BM suddenly does better ST. Pure genius here.

[Doffen]

The entire front page of MM on Guarm is 30 hunters breaking 500k+ (with a top of 550k) and bottoming out on the page around 480k. BM has 4 parses that barely get over 500k and bottoms out around 437k. But no, you must have cracked the code, and BM suddenly does better ST. Pure genius here.

So now you are back to player damage statistics?

[Deleted]

bullshit. The mob your cleaving off hit box can be large enough so your beast cleave misses targets it should it. It quite easy to see on xavius and the first add. If there tanked badly yar pets will be behind xavius to the far left while missing the add to the right...if you move the pet to the other side of xavius you hit both.

This is an example and not the only place it occurs...just the easiest to see. Something you guide always ignores is proper pet management.

/pet attack macros dont always cut it.

i'll repeat again...its moving your pet around yar current target cause his hit box is large. Pets default position is behind the target ..sometimes this mean limited pet cleave...so you move your pet around your current target hit box.

And yar right the denial is real. Your denial of something so simple.

Agree - need move pet sometimes. I..e mythic+ helya - but in general petattack will be sufficient and u can sorta estimate the add and position u need to hit it from.just had to macro petattack to multi and kill command. I..e even when im on left side on mythic dragons - i start right side so i get a better pet position. Something you need to figure out per fight.

[ydraw]

The entire front page of MM on Guarm is 30 hunters breaking 500k+ (with a top of 550k) and bottoming out on the page around 480k. BM has 4 parses that barely get over 500k and bottoms out around 437k. But no, you must have cracked the code, and BM suddenly does better ST. Pure genius here.

I don't see anyone arguing that MM can't parse higher. MM is a much more RNG dependent spec than BM. All the highest parses are going to be MM, as are all the lowest parses. The fact that is revealed in the logs is that BM damage is higher on average. The logs say as much for every single target fight in the current tier.

If your argument is that MM has the higher chance of being the #1 ranked hunter on WL, then you are absolutely correct. But that's just an argument you're having with yourself, nobody has ever suggested otherwise.

[Deleted]

Current PTR State indicates that MM will definitly deal more ST and AoEDmg(Spreadcleave&Stackcleave) compared to BM.
If you are able to compete on high movement fights will depend on your dropluck.
As long as you can get a hand on the new Leg Gloves as a MM you have to stand still for a small amount of 1,7 seconds over 10 seconds, which is pretty low and you can consider MM as highly mobile. Otherwise new vulnerability/PS windows are even more punishing.
It should also be mentioned that MM scales much better with new gear(4P/Trinket) compared to BM and that BM Hati issues aren't solved yet.

[Deleted]

not from people like you or Megataco777.

Hey you cant say that. Its trademarked by me

[Khrux]

This thread reminds me of the Unholy vs Frost battle that raged on for weeks following Legion's release. The exact same comments about what spec is harder to play, what has more mobility, what can cleave/aoe/pad better, pet AI and so on.

In the end, Blizzard did exactly what they claimed they wouldn't, buffed an under performing spec to the point it over took what most players invested in. Then all the Unholy crusaders belittling the Frost players had to eat their words and change specs. I'm not saying that will be the case here, I don't think BM's current design will ever lead to it being the better spec, but the point is this sort of infighting withing each class is dumb. At any point a change can cause the balance to sway in any direction and there is really no need for people to be so butthurt about it.

Look at rogues, they started with outlaw #1, then throughout the tier Assa becomes #1 and with 7.1.5 outlaw is edging towards #1 again. All the while sub is getting closer and closer to the top spot. The same shit is going on with Mage, #1 fire, with arcane and frost looking to overtake it in 7.1.5 - these are things Blizzard said they wouldn't do, but with AK25 available now I think that concept is in the wind and at this point literally *any* spec could become #1 (even survival lol)

[Deleted]

This thread reminds me of the Unholy vs Frost battle that raged on for weeks following Legion's release. The exact same comments about what spec is harder to play, what has more mobility, what can cleave/aoe/pad better, pet AI and so on.

In the end, Blizzard did exactly what they claimed they wouldn't, buffed an under performing spec to the point it over took what most players invested in. Then all the Unholy crusaders belittling the Frost players had to eat their words and change specs. I'm not saying that will be the case here, I don't think BM's current design will ever lead to it being the better spec, but the point is this sort of infighting withing each class is dumb. At any point a change can cause the balance to sway in any direction and there is really no need for people to be so butthurt about it.

Look at rogues, they started with outlaw #1, then throughout the tier Assa becomes #1 and with 7.1.5 outlaw is edging towards #1 again. All the while sub is getting closer and closer to the top spot. The same shit is going on with Mage, #1 fire, with arcane and frost looking to overtake it in 7.1.5 - these are things Blizzard said they wouldn't do, but with AK25 available now I think that concept is in the wind and at this point literally *any* spec could become #1 (even survival lol)

in all fairness - i think what they said is still true.. i doubt if you have 40-50 points in i.e. fire - and 1-2 good fire legendaries.. going arcane will be an option within next 1-2 months anyway

So you are still as same spot in a way.

Another thing that people dont consider is i.e. MM having 2 good dps legendaries and 6 that dont much or are weird. So some people switching their loot spec now to bm - but what if blizz adds more op mm legends? then all of a sudden u are fucked as u i.e. will have 2 mm and 2 bm - and only 1-6/7 chance to get the new sick one.

So ... conclusion to me: stick to class u play, stick to spec u play, and make it work. BM is fine, move on.

[Firebyrd]

From someone who ONLY plays BM: Megotaku is right here and I've also put forth the same points on these forums as well. It would be HIGHLY imbalanced for BM, a fully mobile spec, to perform better than MM, a more immobile spec. That's not even considering the fact that MM is harder to play. And no, that doesn't mean that MM is [i]hard[i] to play; if that's what people get from this statement they need to read up on the concept of relative terms. Maybe putting it in these terms makes it clear: MM is easy, BM is easier.

This is where you and I might disagree but I don't think BM is catastrophically worse than MM in raiding, at least not to the degree that it was in HFC. MM is the clear winner for MOST fights but I don't think being BM is a severe detriment to your raiding group unless you are pushing world firsts/server firsts on a competitive server. And that's how it should be: no matter how well balanced the class is you will still have one spec leading in most situations (think BM in 5.4.8 where BM and SV were pretty well balanced and equal but BM edged out most of the time) and right now BM is a lot easier to play than MM and is the ONLY spec that is fully mobile, therefore it should do less DPS. End of discussion really.

So people should not be focusing on a spec that plays better, rather than one that performs better. This is my complaint about BM: it plays like utter shit. Pressing 3 buttons is shit. 40% downtime is shit. No, that's not just my opinion: I think that's fact. I don't buy any "some people LIKE downtime" argument. I also don't buy Blizzard's argument where apparently it's not bad because it's intentional because that's just backwards logic. And there's NO reason it should play like this: BM in WoD was a very well designed spec and actually took some thought (again it wasn't HARD but it took much more attention than current BM). I just can't fathom how Blizzard took so much time and effort to transform something well designed and received into something badly designed and received, and this goes for all class design fuck-ups this expansion of which there are many. If they literally did NOTHING and saved all that effort they would have a better end product than they do now. So basically I think they should improve BM's playstyle while making the necessary tuning adjustments to make sure it doesn't stray too far from where it is now. An example of this would be making Dire Beast have 2 charges BASELINE (bullshit legendary system doesn't count for the moment) while nerfing the damage of Kill Command/Stomp.

As another BM lifer, you said most of what I wanted to. I'm embarrassed reading a lot of this thread and the nonsense being spouted. BM was at about the same level of difficulty as the other specs in its previous incarnation. The current one though? That's why it sucks so much! It's boring because it's so utterly brain dead and simple. The damage is also quite terrible. I don't even get why people are trying to defend this travesty of a spec. Blizzard completely fucked it up. I'm still playing it is due to nostalgia and a reluctance to go through the learning curve on something else and be doing even less damage for a time (because bad it is, but I can squeeze the damage out of it), but if I could figure out something I liked half as much as Cata-WoD BM, I'd swap in a heartbeat.

Seriously, Mavick and company: BM is bad right now in every way. If you want to play it? Then go ahead and play it, that's fine. But don't be trying to make it out to be something other than the pile of utter shit that it is to justify your decision. And mind you, I'm saying that as someone who played BM all through Wrath, when it was so bad Ghostcrawler called it a spec that the company failed at the end of the expansion.

[ydraw]

Seriously, Mavick and company: BM is bad right now in every way. If you want to play it? Then go ahead and play it, that's fine. But don't be trying to make it out to be something other than the pile of utter shit that it is to justify your decision.

Both specs are bad right now. All 3 hunter specs are in the bottom 5 on single target. BM is higher DPS than MM on single target fights though, which is why I play it on single target fights.

[Makro]

Is this not a discussion about 7.1.5?

All this talking about which spec is better on single target right now is pointless.

Set bonuses (easily available) and new/nerfed legendaries (which we might not have and never get) are going to have a big impact on performances. Personally I don't see BM beating MM on any encounter, given 4 set bonus and BiS legendaries.
For the unlucky among us (and by "us" I mean those hunter that don't fight or cry over which spec is better and instead just play it), it's probably all going to come down to "is BM better than no-gloves-MM on this heavy movement fight or not?".

[Khrux]

On one hand I regret not playing hunter since TBC, as I missed some glory days in Wrath/Cata/Mop/WoD plus basically missed the entire survival explosive/LnL spec which sounded fun. On the other hand, I'm not as salty about the current specs as I have nothing to compare them to considering Vanilla/TBC hunter was very different.

I do however agree that all 3 specs feel bad now, as a returning player to Hunters I find;
BM - dull and just missing something rotationally, the downtime, the relative weakness and infrequency of your filler along with the games design moving light years ahead of the pet's AI coding. There is alot holding BM back that I don't see being solved in Legion.
MM - doesn't feel satisfying to play for me. I don't get the enjoyment out of utilizing vulnerable windows, it feels like a minigame within a game while the game itself is working to make the minigame less enjoyable. 7.1.5 looks to further push this down my throat instead of streamlining what was widely considered a poor mechanic to begin with.
Survival - I don't mind that its melee, we're not the first class to have a melee/ranged option for dps so it can work if done right. The spec itself is alot of fun for world quests and PvP. It actually feels very complete and feature filled but its got the opposite problem to BM. There is too much going on, for a new spec designed post ability pruning it somehow has ability bloat?! If they trimmed the rotational abilities and aligned some of the Cds and effect durations better it could flow very well.

Overall I think the Hunter class in general got a pretty bad design pass this expansion and outside of Warlocks is probably the class most in need of a new expansion to wipe the slate and try again.

[Aldare]

Overall I think the Hunter class in general got a pretty bad design pass this expansion and outside of Warlocks is probably the class most in need of a new expansion to wipe the slate and try again.

Spot on. All 3 specs received overwhelmingly negative feedback throughout Alpha and Beta that Blizzard either ignored or tried to fix with bandaids (ie. Sidewinders) instead of actually adressing the core issues players were reporting.