Everyone asks for stuff to do, no one asks for fun stuff to do

[Pua]

The top players in the world have time to waste to do the same fight 50 times a day and find that coordination sweet spot. Most of us don't. That's the difference. It's not a question of skill as much as of repetition. It doesn't mean they're more skilled than you or me.

I'm afraid you can't really argue against statistics with personal anecdotes; I'm not saying anecdotes aren't compelling, because they can be. I'm simply saying that a tiny, tiny percentage of players raid at the Mythic level - a level you, yourself, have never played at and are, therefore, completely unable to judge.

Sure, at the highest level. But virtually every action is hard at that level.

You can only really judge the top level under this type of context. Mythic raids and high-rated arena is where players are judged and, if you're not competing there, you simply can't claim that the game is easy because you've no way of justifying such a claim.

The number of Mythic clears and Gladiators makes it clear that only a tiny percentage are at the top; and they don't claim the game is easy.

Granted, I think there is a fair amount of skilled required to successfully pull off a scripted event. It's not easy to get 20 people to move, jump, collapse, run out in perfect sequence to the events (all the while trying to achieve maximum heals\Dps\Threat). I'd like to see Bosses be more dynamic and less predictable. That might prove to be a nightmare to tune and balance around and would we be happy to see an unknown guild get a world first, simply because their fight gave them the easiest sequence

I get what you're saying, and it's relatively fair.

I'm not sure where in the world you hail from, but in Scotland we have two contrasting sports; football and rugby. Football requires a dramatically higher amount of individual ability (technically speaking), while rugby requires a dramatically higher amount of tactical ability. One sport is largely defined by its individuals, the other is largely defined by its teams.

Successfully completing a "scripted event" might not take an individual to do something amazing - that's understood. But the coordination required, with 19 other individual moving parts and multiple other things going on, really does. It takes planning, communication, fast reflexes and awareness from everyone in order to complete the encounter successfully.

And don't forget: much of top level play requires very fast twitch reflexes, particularly in PvP, and twitch reflexes start to degrade by the time people have completed their teens. Given that the average age of a Warcraft player is upwards of the mid-twenties the last I checked, the overwhelming majority of players are already "past their best" and on the downward trajectory. If you're at the age of 15 to 18 then the game will feel easier, but most players aren't at that age.

Just some food for thought.

[Granyala]

You can only really judge the top level under this type of context. Mythic raids and high-rated arena is where players are judged and, if you're not competing there, you simply can't claim that the game is easy because you've no way of justifying such a claim.

Actually I can, because in an MMO there is a time element to it.
Most content is designed to nerf itself over time.

Yes, Mythic is brutally hard for world first guys. No argument about that.
However, Mythic is not even a fraction of that once you do it later.
E.G.: Even my guild managed to clear M HFC at the end of it's lifetime while it was still current content. Was it difficult for them? I'd be willing to bet it was. Was it as difficult as it was at the beginning of the patch cycle? Nope (Item upgrades and WF powered overgearing say "hi").

Difficulty in MMOs is really blurry and not that trivially easy to judge at all, because the WF crowd could be wiping way earlier on a boss than Blizzard intended and thus have a harder time with it than intended.

Of course a generalized statement like "WoW provides no challenging content" from someone that watched raid bosses on YouTube is obviously nonsensical and not worth discussing at all.

[Pua]

@Granyala

I read your post a couple of times and... I think we generally agree. Your point about content becoming naturally easier over time is well made, and accurate. My original statement about the game being extremely challenging at the top level, however, still stands; and it's really the only way to judge the game if you're going to decry it as "easy".

[Deleted]

So we're in agreement; it IS a huge investment of time - time that most others don't have. Not many can play uninterrupted 10+ hours per day just to grind out ilvls out of normal dungeons > heroic dungeons > normal raids > heroic raids > mythic raids and claim world first/second etc. I argue that most people of average intellect and that amount of time could do the same thing.

[Doombringer]

I've long wanted two "fun" things:

1 > Dungeons that have a variety of bosses depending on a randomizing factor, or a certain progression through an expansion ... i.e. to keep the dungeons fresh and interesting as the expansion goes on. Nothing is more boring than having a dungeon that plays the same way at launch as it does at the expansion's conclusion.

An example would be ... some areas of the Vault of the Wardens are accessible at launch, but not all. As the expansion progresses our work there is shown to have an effect, and the Wardens have retaken some areas. We return to find the other areas open now. The loot tables move over and new loot is added/updated. New bosses, some different story/lore/voiceover items, etc. Very little is changed i.e. art assets, but at least it feels/plays somewhat differently.

2 > Decision-making when it comes to questing. Why aren't there more quests where we can make a decision that affects the outcome? We retrieve an Object of Great Power, why can't we have the chance to keep it? Maybe if we do, the chain ends and we get a quick AP reward. If we turn the item in, a follow-up quest is given for different loot. Randomize the rewards a little so that no one can create a "always choose this path" guide to these quests and keep the decision an important one.

"Collect my sheep, they're all over the place, bring them back here" ... so you go out and can catch them and bring them back, or slaughter them and give the wool to a competing shepherd. Or, "bring me Naga armaments so I can stage a revolt" and you can instead rat the guy out to the Naga and get a different reward. It would go a long way to making the questing experience feel more in tune to how you want your character to be ... a vile miscreant, an opportunist, a knight, true neutral, etc.

[Lochton]

Yes, more fun stuff, but it has to also be rewarding and connected to the current content to be relevant.