Watcher knew about Legion issues, did nothing about it

[Charge me Doctor]

That's the thing, we have no data on the number of players who were benched for players with better legendaries. Did it come up? I 100% believe it did. The question is, at what percentage does it become a problem? People are benched all the time for poor performance, poor attendance,

Well that's your problem. Believing something doesn't make it true.

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Yea I'm sure Method was sitting there on Helya, pushing for world first when Sco and Roger said: "Hey do you guys mind logging those other chars of yours that do 10% more damage? If you don't want to tho it's fine, don't worry about it."

I also think some of their members didn't use flasks and shit with them being so expensive.

Jesus the shit I read on these forums never cease to amaze me.

They have compeltely different mentality. If you (as a player) have a toon that deals 10% more damage on that encounter you are not asked to log into it, you just log into it and raid on it. Just like people running multibox with same class characters for extra chance on good legendary, then when it drops they just "main" this one. It isn't required, people are not benched because of that, people just do that to have an edge.
A player in top guild won't be benched because of his character, he will just level another one in couple of hours and keep going, or log into someone elses account for raids, because top guilds want players, not characters like it used to be when leveling and gearing a character to decent levels required crapton of time

[TriHard]

Next expansion is going to be so gucci, no damn legendaries <3

[Charge me Doctor]

Let us get this on the table. The legendary system is bad.

The legendary system is good, because it makes people to feel something towards gear again, instead of gear being just stats. This topic and numerous others only prove it

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They switched mains to those that got their BIS legendaries. They sat their classes themselves.

This is exactly what you would expect from a high-end PvE guild player. They don't sit on their one character, they have multiple characters, because (duh), everything is subject to change and in next patch your class/spec may be or may be not dropped to 12th DPS rank. You need to have multiple toons ready for raid. If it happens that one of your toons got a legendary and it spiked its DPS or other performance stat to the level higher than your mains - well, that's your main now and you simply keep gearing him up (granted that gearing him up will end up giving you more DPS overall, aka "i've got a legendary that boosted me to 320k DPS but getting extra 20ilvls will result in me doing 380k DPS, but my old toon will jump from 300k DPS to 450k DPS with these extra 20ilvls"

[Lutris]

You are upostu be behind players what plays more. Thats how game works. Like what do you want? Blizzard to stop them from playing so you can catch up with them? Put insade game soft caps so you dont feel forced to play game? Casuals will never and dont deserver to catch up to more hardcore players end of story.

the people who are complaining about this and the AP grind are not casuals; they are midcore raiders who don't want to play the game outside of logging in once or twice a week to raid. they lack the self control needed to govern their own actions, which is why they do actually want caps on everything so they can do a limited amount of gameplay a day/week and then not fall "behind".

it'd be easier to have sympathy for them if they weren't also the ones who constantly advocate for casual content to be removed.

not that i'm saying the legion legendary system is a good one. it has the air of a plan that simply wasn't thought through very well. being able to "target" a specific legendary would go a long way to alleviating that though.

[Thage]

This is exactly what you would expect from a high-end PvE guild player. They don't sit on their one character, they have multiple characters, because (duh), everything is subject to change and in next patch your class/spec may be or may be not dropped to 12th DPS rank. You need to have multiple toons ready for raid. If it happens that one of your toons got a legendary and it spiked its DPS or other performance stat to the level higher than your mains - well, that's your main now and you simply keep gearing him up (granted that gearing him up will end up giving you more DPS overall, aka "i've got a legendary that boosted me to 320k DPS but getting extra 20ilvls will result in me doing 380k DPS, but my old toon will jump from 300k DPS to 450k DPS with these extra 20ilvls"

Basically, this thread is just another in a long line of players who got used to being able to log in, raid, and log out with no effort spent preparing between raid nights from WoD and now they're mad because to reap the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, they actually have to engage in a hardcore playstyle again. Legion is a reality check for a lot of players that they aren't as hardcore as WoD let them think they are, while those of us who know we aren't hardcore are having a blast taking it one day at a time.

[Racthoh]

everyone knew about most issues since beta, so what?

[Kyanion]

It seems silly to me and I'd like to find better ways to spend my time.

Like post on forums and complain about it?

[Low Hanging Fruit]

The legendary system is good, because it makes people to feel something towards gear again, instead of gear being just stats. This topic and numerous others only prove it

Was going to add you to my LOL follow this guy to get a laugh at stupidity list.. but you were already there. Shame.

Legendary system sucks. This topic and numerous others only prove it.

But I also see you are likely just trolling the subject. Oh well. No major loss and I got a laugh out of it. Always worth a win.

[Thage]

Yup, you and I have a totally different mentality. What I hear you saying is, "Thank god they added so many grindy boring activities to Legion that people can waste time on." I don't see any reason to add endless rewards to easy content. It seems silly to me and I'd like to find better ways to spend my time.

MMOs are designed to waste your time. By even current industry standards, Legion isn't much of a grind. Every WQ has a story tidbit tied to it and doesn't take much time to knock out, Mythic dungeons tend to last under 30m unless you're doing a Kara full-clear or a high-rated Mythic+ dungeon with some bullshit modifiers, and the gear grind starts slow only because of the random nature of WQ spawns and the scaling continent; you've got a hump around 830 to get over before the gear grind picks back up, I've found. If you really think Legion is a bad grind, I wouldn't suggest trying Phantasy Star Online 2, FFXIV, DCU Online, TERA, Blade & Soul, Destiny, or Neverwinter Online.

Of the current MMO landscape, the only one without much grinding involved is SWTOR and that's because it's largely been reformatted into a single-player game you occasionally group up in, more fitting to Bioware's standards and strengths. Where you see pointless grinds, I see reasons to get out of Dalaran to keep progressing between Mythic lockouts and reasons beyond "Because flight" to go do reputation grinds and WQs. After WoD, I'm hardly one to say "God damn there's just too much to do and it takes too much time," because we've been down the other road and brother/sister/insert here, that is a dead end.

[Lebanese Dude]

Jesus Christ the drama behind legendaries is seriously hilarious. None of them give more than a 5-10% damage increase at most. If you deal 300k DPS, that's 15K DPS.

Do you suck so much that the 15-30K DPS it gives you would make or break you? You're more likely to gain that much DPS if you got better at mechanics and your class. Once you're a god in those, then I'd take your lack of legendaries seriously.

Bunch of scrubs blaming Blizzard for their failures. If it's not legendaries, it's something else. I have no empathy whatsoever.

That being said the system is pretty flawed. They should have made it so that you could choose your first legendary at the end of the Suramar questline. I doubt people would be as salty as they are now if they had at least one of their choosing. The rest can all be RNG. Of course they'd have to reduce the discrepancy between the legendaries beforehand so there was no "obvious" choice.

[Kontinuum]

Watcher knew about Legion issues, did nothing about it
Legion was an inside job.

[paloalto]

The amount of people caping for the legendary system is interesting when even its creator has admitted that they made serious missteps with how they designed it and realized significant aspects of it were a mistake.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

The amount of people caping for the legendary system is interesting when even its creator has admitted that they made serious missteps with how they designed it and realized significant aspects of it were a mistake.

There's this false echo bubble where people who do hardcore raiding believe they're the sole target audience of Blizzard.

There's also this false echo bubble where people who do hardcore raiding believe a .2% DPS increase is what make or break a mythic+ fight.

Truth: If you failed a boss fight because of a Legendary you didn't have, the problem is with your own personal skills or with people who underperform severely in your guild.

Truth: If you believe a .2% DPS increase, or even a 2% DPS increase, is what's going to give you a raiding spot, then perhaps you're better off in another guild. Clearly, your raid leader is clueless as to what's the biggest source of DPS within a raid group.

Truth: Ion said that if he had to redo it, it would be with the removal of DPS legendaries, not because they were better overall, but because they were slightly better in a majority of situations, while situational legendaries were tremendously better, but in a few very specific situations.

[Shirofune]

There's this false echo bubble where people who do hardcore raiding believe they're the sole target audience of Blizzard.

There's also this false echo bubble where people who do hardcore raiding believe a .2% DPS increase is what make or break a mythic+ fight.

Truth: If you failed a boss fight because of a Legendary you didn't have, the problem is with your own personal skills or with people who underperform severely in your guild.

Truth: If you believe a .2% DPS increase, or even a 2% DPS increase, is what's going to give you a raiding spot, then perhaps you're better off in another guild. Clearly, your raid leader is clueless as to what's the biggest source of DPS within a raid group.

Truth: Ion said that if he had to redo it, it would be with the removal of DPS legendaries, not because they were better overall, but because they were slightly better in a majority of situations, while situational legendaries were tremendously better, but in a few very specific situations.

You're so clueless, lol.

0.2% DPS MATTERS, specially in Mythic progression. Do you know how many wipes happened in Mythic Guarm because of the lack of DPS and the boss being balanced towards the raid having legendaries? I agree 0.2% DPS isn't going to carry you through all bosses, but in progression, every bit matters. The shorter the boss, the less stress to healers/tanks.

In progression, there're a lot of things that matter, but, provided the same level of attendance and skill, a guy that does more DPS will get the spot over someone that does less DPS. That's called being a Core member, and it's something every half decent guild has. A raid HAS to optimize its spots to progress in Mythic.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

You're so clueless, lol.

0.2% DPS MATTERS, specially in Mythic progression. Do you know how many wipes happened in Mythic Guarm because of the lack of DPS and the boss being balanced towards the raid having legendaries? I agree 0.2% DPS isn't going to carry you through all bosses, but in progression, every bit matters. The shorter the boss, the less stress to healers/tanks.

In progression, there're a lot of things that matter, but, provided the same level of attendance and skill, a guy that does more DPS will get the spot over someone that does less DPS. That's called being a Core member, and it's something every half decent guild has. A raid HAS to optimize its spots to progress in Mythic.

No, it doesn't XD

Seriously, it doesn't. It's the same fallacy stated over and over again, "Appeal to probability", assuming that this 0.2% will make a difference, while it will most likely never happen. In fact, the probabilities are so minimal that you're more likely to get a better DPS by being more knowledgeable about your class and your rotation than a single legendary will ever give.

Just to give you a perspective, the only case where the 0.2% is valuable is if the boss you're trying to kill is so tightly close to be dead, the tanks are dead, the healers are dead and the boss is on a rampage on the last few members alive in the raid. That's the only possible utility these have. Outside of that, most boss fights kills people based on skills. It's really that simple.

And quite frankly, if you're part of a guild that bench someone because of a lengendary - something even mythic+ professionnal raiding guilds didn't do - then the issue isn't with the gear but the user behind it, or the raid leader.

[Shirofune]

No, it doesn't XD

Seriously, it doesn't. It's the same fallacy stated over and over again, "Appeal to probability", assuming that this 0.2% will make a difference, while it will most likely never happen. In fact, the probabilities are so minimal that you're more likely to get a better DPS by being more knowledgeable about your class and your rotation than a single legendary will ever give.

Just to give you a perspective, the only case where the 0.2% is valuable is if the boss you're trying to kill is so tightly close to be dead, the tanks are dead, the healers are dead and the boss is on a rampage on the last few members alive in the raid. That's the only possible utility these have. Outside of that, most boss fights kills people based on skills. It's really that simple.

And quite frankly, if you're part of a guild that bench someone because of a lengendary - something even mythic+ professionnal raiding guilds didn't do - then the issue isn't with the gear but the user behind it, or the raid leader.

We don't bench 'cause of legendaries. We bench 'cause of performance.

You'll raid in mythic someday and you will understand.

Tbf, is not 0.2, its 0.2 x 20 = 4% DPS.

[Tharkkun]

Maybe you're being delusional. Even if mythic raiders aim for top performance and the system hurts them the most, it doesn't change the fact that:

1/ Legendary items are totally unbalanced between each other
2/ The way of getting them is pure RNG
3/ The system had at least 2 ways of making the grind harder that we know about (softcap at 4 + diminishing returns)

If you don't care about it, fine. Most people do, contrary to your beliefs.

Let me put this in another way. Imagine your salary each month was RNG. You could be winning 2k€ or you could be winning 200€. The next month you had to work 2x the time for the same chance. Would it be fine with you?

Also, lets not forget another thing. Some people are doing LFR and RHC and getting BiS legendaries, while people doing Mythic raiding and spamming M+ are getting garbage. How is exactly the system rewarding effort? Oh yeah, it is not.

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They didn't sub them out, but those people made alts to get the legendaries. So its essentially the same, the difference is the players themselves wanted to be competitive, so they did the alts.

How's it any different than doing raids for months and never getting your BIS trinket to round out your spec? It's not. Who cares if people doing LFR are getting legendaries? They aren't competing in Mythic raids against you. It's legendary envy.

[Zandalarian Paladin]

We don't bench 'cause of legendaries. We bench 'cause of performance.

You'll raid in mythic someday and you will understand.

Tbf, is not 0.2, its 0.2 x 20 = 4% DPS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_top/dbe4a0q/

We haven't benched people due to legendaries, but we have had people switch to one of their alts, when they got good legendaries on them, and weren't lucky to get any on their mains. But that was mainly for Emerald Nigthmare, since by now most of the players in Method have good legendaries on their mains.

[Armourboy]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_top/dbe4a0q/

So basically if alts weren't so easy to level and get ready these days they would have been benching people with bad legendaries.

See I look at it and don't see what I would call really a bad or broken system. You take this system, strip the DPS increases out and just have utility based ones, you have a perfectly ok system. The problem really isn't with the legendary system itself, the problem is the dumbass that thought it would be a good idea to have ones that increase your DPS and ones that don't put into the same loot table.

Once again Blizzard creates a system that is fine, its the implementation that is wonky. I'll also take a stab that rather than working on the system a bit they will just completely scrap it, because Blizzard loves to swing from one extreme to the other.

[Shirofune]

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_top/dbe4a0q/

This has been answered already, anyway:

"We haven't benched people due to legendaries, but we have had people switch to one of their alts, when they got good legendaries on them, and weren't lucky to get any on their mains."

What can't you read there? They got their alts with good legendaries 'cause the performance was better, rofl.