Recruit enough players to be able to field a 20 man raid.
Recruit enough players to be able to field a 20 man raid.
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Tanking, Blood DK Mythic+ Pugging, Soloing and WoW Challenges alongside other discussions about all things in World of Warcraft
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It's really not that hard.
Orbs. Have you played the encounter on mythic ? It's a major difference when you have only two people kite even if you'd increase he orb size.
Sure sure lfr heroes and their simple ideasTo not realize that it's parity, well, nevermind... look who the hell I'm talking to. Mr. Flex.
Last edited by cFortyfive; 2017-01-11 at 08:23 AM.
This statement has kind of been one of the cornerstones of my argument. It's very easy for people who aren't effected to say there is no problem, but as I've stated I've seen both sides of the fence and there is most certainly a problem.
The piece that I am not confident about is whether the problem is WORTH fixing. I believe it is, but I am open to being incorrect. I offered scenarios that would personally help me, but here I am still with no one able to explain why they'd ruin their experience.
This is an issue, and honestly one that I'm not smart enough to fix.
Ok so we're in agreement here. For the sake of reasonable discussion (something many others have shown repeatedly they're incapable of) is there a single negative aspect to this that you're able to find?
I won't say you're wrong here, but let's analyze the root cause and not the surface issue. Why are the players the problem? Because they don't have the tools to do the content they want.
If I could xrealm raid mythic I'd be doing so. If I could squeeze in on a bench and raid when they need people and sit when they don't, I'd do that. None of these tools are available to me currently. I have to commit fully (something my adult life makes much more difficult these days). It'd be much easier to commit if knowing I miss a raid day or two a month the whole place doesn't give me shit (aka small flex allowing them to run 19, or 21 instead of 22.
This also resonates with my argument. I agree that sacrifice in some semblance is necessary, the question I've posed is if it's possible to maintain existing content, but remove some of the sacrifices, not all? I believe it is.
Your assumption that Mythic is "perfect" is flawed. That implies there is absolutely no room for improvement, which you may believe, but that is not a fact by any means.
This post also misses the point of the post considerably. It's not about effort or desire. It's about making it easier to do those things than they currently are without compromising ex. It would be infinitely easier to recruit for mythic progression if a guild had access to more than just 1 server.
It would be easier to recruit for mythic if players knew that they were going to be able to come to more than 1 fight a tier (aka bench, or rotated in only for farm).
So do you firmly believe that the two are mutually elusive? That they couldn't tune Helya difficulty and have it be very similar across 18-22?
Very often everything is done in groups. I.e. ranged do x, melee do X, or occasionally a single person is assigned a task, in which case tuning between 18-22 wouldn't be anything other than numbers balancing which I believe is more than capable of handling a small flex appropriately.
Things like taints or orbs in Helya wouldn't change. There'd still be 5 taints with 18 or 22. There'd still be 3 orbs. Managing those mechanics with 18 would be no harder than with 20 or 22.
In your example are you referring to throughput over time (say 10m encounter), or at a specific point (i.e. high burst AOE damage phase)? In the latter an extra healer would be invaluable on progression to offer a cushion here, unless the DPS check was unreal. In which case you'd do what you did for Guarm. You'd run as little heals as possible anyway, I don't think you'd run less players.
I like the dig at me. Super cute buddy.
Mythic is already plenty challenging and difficult. I'm simply advocating for making it more accessible, not easier. You're more than welcome to tell me why opening mythic xrealm is bad for mythic raiders. YOu're also more than welcome to cite specific raid boss mechanics that would not work at 18, but do at 20.
I have no issues whatsoever with discussing the data, I have issues with drawing conclusions as facts on the data. There is a difference.
You still aren't listening/understanding. It's not about the transfer. It's about why BOTHER having to transfer to raid mythic. Not a single person (you included) have given a single reason (let alone compelling) for not allowing mythic to be xrealm.
Dishonest? How am I dishonest?
I fabricated a hypothetical scenario to gauge your acceptance of the discussion. The numbers were simply a yes or no statement to determine at what point would x be ok, or not ok. Not sure how/why your panties got crossed over this.
Please pay more attention in English class kid. I was very clear when I said I don't think my opinions are correct or better. I was merely fostering discussion on possible scenarios where we could improve participation in Mythic. To this date, not a single person has actually tried to refute my comments with examples.
I'll reiterate. What do you LOSE by allowing Mythic xrealm? What do you personally lose by allowing this? How is your game experience diluted?
Again - if mythic flexed to 18-22, what would you personally lose? Don't say difficulty because you don't know for a fact that it would occur. You're welcome to discuss that you BELIEVE it'd be diluted, then you could cite examples of fights and mechanics that'd be impacted to better support your opinion.
No space doesn't make a difference. You're just going to stack up and move as a unit anyway. Whether 2 people stack up or 4, it changes nothing.
Using Ily as an example dealing with Bloom with 2 more people isn't any harder. Dealing with it with 2 less isn't any harder either.
Former #1? Never said that kid, please check with your English teacher. I think you need additional tutoring.
I understand that as a kid in middle school you have a lot more free time than me, and probably a ton less responsibility, but none of that changes the fact that I'd love it to be easier to get back into actual challenging content. Please try to stay on topic of the discussion.
Again not sure what you're getting at here, just more rambling that doesn't actually answer or ask anything. Please try to stay on topic.
You're falsely assuming that by adding those 2 features there would be a price to pay or that the quality of encounters would be worse. You're more than welcome to EXPLAIN in detail how that'd actually occur. I don't think you will though since you haven't yet.
LOL you're so mad here it's laughable.
You haven't pointed to a single issue about small flex. You SAID that it'd reduce encounter quality, but haven't actually explained how it would.
You haven't pointed to a single issue about xrealm mythic.
You haven't actually understood a single post I made because every response from you is a either a non-answer, personal attack, or pitiful attempt at wit.
If you could actually read English you'd have seen that I don't claim to be right, I just want someone to tell me why I am wrong or explain what I missing.
No one has done it yet.
I don't think I am particularly mad considering you are the one crying over not being able to spend 20 bucks and doesn't have a single argument that can't be boiled down to some emotional appeal. I have played a quite decent last addon raid content wise and even though this addon is a bit lackluster it still had some acceptable encounters. Enjoy your random nythendra pugs.
I'd be worried if my disposable income wouldn't allow me to spend 20 dollars. Sadly though even my "middle school" schedule doesn't really allow me to waste as much time on some random failure so I'll keep it a bit shorter from now on.I understand that as a kid in middle school you have a lot more free time than me
Also enjoy your lfr progression and behind the curve attempts.No space doesn't make a difference. You're just going to stack up and move as a unit anyway. Whether 2 people stack up or 4, it changes nothing.
Last edited by cFortyfive; 2017-01-11 at 08:48 PM.
They should just create a cross realm guild system. It's not like server identity has mattered since WotLK. Might as well open up mythic cross server and give us a way to connect with other players besides btag.
MMO-C, home of the worst community on the internet.
Completly flexible, I've said this for a long time.
Heroic Raids work great if you ask me and I don't see why they won't do this for Mythic.
There is seriously no reason for it to not be 10-30 or even 40 man.
Because IF there is an "optimal" size for easiest clears, then those who want to, for realm firsts etc, will have that size. BUT allowing other sizes too, for more "casual" mythic guilds, who don't care for the realm race, would only be a good thing and in no way harmful.
The poll is badly worded : the options about allowing cross-realms don't change anything to the size of the raid, so they aren't incompatible with option 8.
I would love 10 man mythic because then I'd actually be doing it.
The only solution is what blizzard are doing, having a fixed size.
That way it has meaning, no debate over which is "better" to judge someone on.
The mistake blizzard made was having two sizes in the first place, which they are now making some progress towards cleaning up.
No amount of scaling is ever going to bring two different sizes in-line, nor will it even be consistent in terms of which is simply "more difficult".
Bigger numbers alone do not define encounter difficulty, as there are differences in role ratio's, movement, spacing etc between two different sizes.
That means the higher difficulty could easily swing either way from one encounter to the next, and so killing the point of Mythic being the "meaningful" format.
Flex due to "playing" the roster numbers has introduced random elements, random numbers to prevent breakpoints of ceertain quantities of players to trivialise it as much as possible.
That rules out flex as having any consistent and therefore meaningful difficulty.
Flex sizing of any sort, or two different fixed formats are not solutions.
Some of those answers aren't mutually exclusive.
For example allowing partial cross-realm, while you could still maintain the 20 fixed size.
I agree.
Best solution for players in general isn't the best solution to let Mythic be what it is trying to be.
The more people you cater to, the more compromises each will have.
They like to think they are getting everything, but something always has to give.
And that will be the very point of mythic, the meaning it is meant to have.
I'd like to see 10 back, I really enjoyed it far more than 20 and really could not give a toss about whether people wanted to argue over 10v25. I can't get my head around why anyone cared beyond world / realm first races, and that's really not a particularly big section of the playerbase.
That said - I don't see 10 returning and all the other alternatives are dreadful, keeping it at 20 seems best.
Omg this is so priceless.
You completely fail at refuting a single argument of mine. Not a single one so you resort to some of the most pathetic/sad attacks I think I've ever seen on these forums.
Fun facts:
I pug much more than just Nythendra on Mythic .
I have all ahead of the curve achievements currently this expansion, including Keystone Master.
In order to progress in LFR I'd have to actually do it. I don't. I do heroic/mythic exclusively, so nice try here kiddo.
I will accept this post as your resignation to the discussion. Thank you for playing. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors going forward. Your results are posted below.
Discussionlogs.com says you parsed in the 9th% for your intellect level. You might want to try high school, college, job, books, etc. to improve your knowledge base for the next discussion you participate in.
Grats on US Top 50 btw. You're short selling yourself there. Moving on, I think your example shows a good point.
Do you think that this statement and the one below say essentially the same thing?I want to raid with my friends and raid Mythic, but there's only 18 of us. Blizzard, you suck for making it require 20 people
IMHO I think they say the same thing, but I think it's important to note the distinction. I do this type of work for a living. I have business lines tell me an issue with a software or process they don't like, and EXTREMELY often I'll ask them why they don't like it, or why it doesn't work and its crickets. Literally a room full of 3-4 team leads, 2-3 directors, and not a single word.I want to raid with my friends and raid Mythic, but there's only 18 of us. Blizzard, you suck for making it immeasurably diffcult to recruit at least 2 more players who fit in with us and can perform.
If Blizzard were to solve the first example they'd make Mythic raid size smaller. If they were to solve the second, they'd devise ways to improve participation/recruitment. It's important to solve the correct problem, not the first problem IMO.
Fair enough. I understand your point of view. (For the record I don't actually want flex mythic, I'm simply discussing to discuss )
I want to use your comment here to bring up something that wasn't brought up at all (as best I can tell). I feel like the assumption is that with any form of mythic flex, the level of difficulty is ASSUMED to go down. Would you be opposed to content being more difficult should you opt to bring 18, or 22? What if with the advent of flex (via tuning), the easiest it could be matches existing difficulty? Naturally that's what everyone would choose to do, but they'd have the option to bring an extra person or two if needed/able etc. Would that be a bad thing? Does this impact your feelings on the topic at all?
The way I see it (and please correct me if you disagree) your top world guilds would be business as usual, where as midcore mythic guilds might suck it up to bring in some extras or still play if they're down a player or two and deal with the minor increase in difficulty.
This is a good point. I should have spoken more clearly. I don't actually mean they don't have the tools. I meant that the tools are outdated, poor, and thus not optimized. I have a bike (a tool), but it's not as optimal as using my car to get to work (not true since I live 5 mins from work and WFH 2 days a week LOL), but for most it is.
The server transfer tool costs money (a barrier for some players, not me personally).
The forums are fine for recruiting. You have to filter by server, faction, class, spec, desired progression, time zone/schedule. I'd hardly call this fun or optimal. Imagine if you could remove the server restriction. Just removing a single one of those increases your prospects EXPONENTIALLY.
These tools work, but are they good? I don't think so.
You just couldn't help yourself. Keep trying to get me pinned down. So far you're 0/71. That's a solid track record.
Also Fun facts 2.0:
Well past spiderbird, try again.
I do not take, nor need any meds. my PCP can confirm this if you'd like. (Do you even know what a PCP is, considering you're mom still takes you to see a pediatrician?).
I agree with your statements about success and magnetism (having also seen it first hand).
One thing I'd like to draw attention to here is that your speaking from the position of the guild recruiting, not the player looking for a guild. Your insight is still beyond invaluable, but I think that's what we're still not meshing on.
Imagine if you were the hunter from your example below. He thought he was joining a really badass strict mythic raiding guild. Then he finds out that you guys are a bunch of sensible adults who just want to have fun and down content in a timely manner (my impression of your guild, please correct if I am mistaken).
So to you he rightly seemed like a dbag and wasn't a good fit, but to him, he didn't realize he joined a guild that isn't as serious or analytical as he was expecting. It wasn't difficult for you at all to pick the best of the applicants, but for him, he had to find you (using the archaic tools previously mentioned), pay the unnecessary transfer fee, and then pray that you guys were what he was looking for. Since it wasn't now he's back to square one again.
It's a quick database script. I could write it in my sleep if I worked there, but I wouldn't have to because they have automated tools that handle it for them. That's how easy it is.
I agree that despite my stance of saying its blizzard's job to ensure the tools we have as players are as best as they can be, that players still don't use them, and may not even use them if they were better.
Your analysis/example/understanding is correct. Using that 10mm wrench is much more work than if you had the socket. Again, as always the issue isn't that the job can't be done (in fact it can quite easily with a moderate amount of effort), the issue is that if there are solutions that can improve the job success rate, why aren't they implemented? Which we've covered most of so no need to rehash.
I'd kill for an easier way to match with guilds who were interested in me. I like your suggestion.
The problem really isn't the raid size, the problem is there are so many more guilds trying to raid mythic that it limits the amount of players that are available to those guilds. If there are 20 guilds out there who can't field 20 people because they are all short a person, 1 guild breaks up and those people get distributed back into the pool to join guilds. If those people each go to one of the available guilds there are now 19 guilds able to reliably raid. I think the problem is everyone is trying to lead their own guild so there are a bunch of guilds fragmented around that have > 20 but < 15 and rather then dissolving they just struggle to find people and keep their heads above water.
Raids require 20 people but nobody ever wants to sit except for when its convenient for them, so if they are one of those cusp players in like the 18-22 slots they just look for another place to raid. That guild then runs into the problem where if 2 people go find new guilds they are now at 20 and if someone cant raid one night they have a fit since they dont have enough people now.
Current size is fine. If your guild can't recruit for it, then your guild is unfit to run it. Merge or disband, or stick to Heroic.
The real problem is there are far too many realms and Blizz needs to just bite the bullet and merge them. People will get over name changes.
Bf? Now you're making assumptions as to my gender/sexual orientation? Now now that's just silly, for reference though my gf is quite a fantastic woman, more of a woman than your mother ever was based on your manners kiddo.
My pugs do go very well. That's not the issue, the issue is I'd like it to be easier to FIND pugs or easier for PUGs to get traction.
There is no "problem".