What made classic wow better than current?

[Vineri]

Your quote of otaXephon is wrong. And, again, I never demanded "evidence of casual differences between vanilla and Legion."

I know, right.

You made a claim with no evidence, because it suits your narrative. You claim that's design philosophy changed over the years, and not only you don't present any evidence to back up your argument, but all the immediately apparent evidence contradicts you.

It's what you do. It's a sheet-screen of solid bologa.

You somehow need evidence to show legacy was better. Facts .. numbers ... no good .. you demand evidence ...

To which I said play the DAMN GAME! to know the differences ... I spouted many differences and you were apparently unaware of them, to which I challenged that you even played easy versions at all ...

Then your retail pals got online suddenly.

This is all I know, currently.

[Ielenia]

I know, right.

It's what you do. It's a sheet-screen of solid bologa.

Philosophy. I'm not asking you to show me in-game examples of different mechanics between WoW launch and today. I'm asking you to tell me when Blizzard decided to change their design philosophy.

I don't want to know how much the game changed, or what changes occurred during all those years. What I want to know is if the guiding force (i.e. design philosophy) behind those changes changed in those years, and if it did, that you show me when and how it happened.

[Vineri]

Philosophy. I'm not asking you to show me in-game examples of different mechanics between WoW launch and today. I'm asking you to tell me when Blizzard decided to change their design philosophy.

I don't want to know how much the game changed, or what changes occurred during all those years. What I want to know is if the guiding force (i.e. design philosophy) behind those changes changed in those years, and if it did, that you show me when and how it happened.

I could answer those questions.

I have two questions first.

1) Are you a journalist, or affiliated with a journalist publication?
2) Are you a Blizzard employee, or affiliated with Blizzard in any way?

Honestly Ielenia, these are two things I actively think about when I read your posts. It's happened before.

Your last post was so specific, I HAD TO ASK. Please understand.

[Ielenia]

Your last post was so specific, I HAD TO ASK. Please understand.

I had to be very specific because it seems to be the only way get through you. As for your "two questions", I'm not dignifying them with an answer, as they have no bearing in the discussion.

[Vineri]

I had to be very specific because it seems to be the only way get through you. As for your "two questions", I'm not dignifying them with an answer, as they have no bearing in the discussion.

Being very specific is never frowned upon.

Being evasive is, frowned upon.

[Sansnom]

I could answer those questions.

Are you going to? I like to hear it too.

I have two questions first.

1) Are you a journalist, or affiliated with a journalist publication?
2) Are you a Blizzard employee, or affiliated with Blizzard in any way?

Not sure why it matters.

[Ielenia]

Being very specific is never frowned upon.

Being evasive is, frowned upon.

This from the guy who asks two questions with absolutely zero bearing in the current topic. Not to mention any answer I may give would likely be used to derail it into a tangent.

I'm not answering those questions. Move on.

[Vineri]

This from the guy who asks two questions with absolutely zero bearing in the current topic. Not to mention any answer I may give would likely be used to derail it into a tangent.

I'm not answering those questions. Move on.

These questions are not to arise mystique around yourself. They are questions, with answers available to the general public.

The questions did not sprout from thin air. They were crafted, believe it or not.

[Kyanion]

That's really all you had to say. It sums up your position nicely. Esentially people loved good gear. Subscriptions rose.

Gear started being easy to get, subscriptions sank. Equipment given away willy nilly, experience given for picking a rose, participation tanked.

It shows how blind-sided you are. People who agree will agree, those who don't, won't - with what you say. Nothing much changes, but it shows your inadequacy to evaluate this situation, given a rebuttal argument.

Casual in 2004 =/= Casual in 2017.

ps - not going to go through each sentence you nitpick. I'll pick the highlight, or 1st comment, whichever comes first. Talk to me in 1 post, not a series of mini posts.

Yeah keep ignoring that there were more subs in TBC and WotLK when getting gear wasn't as hard in WotLK for example. You know, that expansion that had more subs than Vanilla did.

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Just FYI, gear started being easy to get already in TBC, and, as far as I recall, subscriptions still rose during that time.

Shh don't say that it ruins his narrative!

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If you can't tell the difference between an orange and an apple without having someone prove it to you I don't know what to tell you. Design philosophies change from expansion to expansion and even between patches, and that's a good thing!

This coming from the same person with the thread title "what made classic wow better than current" and you can't see that the design philosophy for Blizz was based around the casual player?

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These questions are not to arise mystique around yourself. They are questions, with answers available to the general public.

The questions did not sprout from thin air. They were crafted, believe it or not.

Quit wasting time in this thread with shit like that.

[Deleted]

Had a break from mmo-champ. Nice to see that 100 pages later its still the same ppl telling me that its nostalgia and vanlla is shit. Thanks

[Eleccybubb]

Had a break from mmo-champ. Nice to see that 100 pages later its still the same ppl telling me that its nostalgia and vanlla is shit. Thanks

Because legacy people aren't going "Retail is shit" or "WoW should remove the sub" either right? Oh wait.

[Vash The Stampede]

You're just mad that Blizz isn't catering to your desires and giving you Vanilla. Get over it. I like how you want retail WoW to fail and die so they might bring back your precious Vanilla as a last gasp to inject life into the franchise or some shit. Don't you have a circlejerk to attend on your PS or is there too much drama over there right now?

LOL, you seem to forget that a pirate is free and I can do what I want. I'm interested in Blizzard putting Vanilla like design into future expansions. I already have my Vanilla experience.

Yeah keep ignoring that there were more subs in TBC and WotLK when getting gear wasn't as hard in WotLK for example. You know, that expansion that had more subs than Vanilla did.

TBC had more than Vanilla, so what's your point? If fact TBC was nearly 12 million before WOTLK was released. WOTLK had very little growth.

I'll repeat what I said earlier to you: you need reading comprehension classes. I never said that WoW didn't become more casual over the years. I said that Blizzard's design philosophy didn't change. Their philosophy is still about making WoW an accessible game and reach as many players as they can. Which is why WoW became more accessible as time went on.

Their game design guidelines have certainly changed over the years. The game is always about making money first, and increasing accessibility was thought to increase subs. As we can see in the graph, that never worked out for Blizzard. After WOTLK the game became more accessible and the subs declined. Whatever Blizzard is doing clearly isn't working.

[Deleted]

As someone who is now playing Wow vanilla for the first time since 2004, I have to say it's a completely different game now VS then. And for me, vanilla is much more fun and immersive. There are limitations, everything takes ages, a skill up feels incredible, a new weapon or piece of armor has value, quests are dangerous, fun things happen as a result. It feels much rewarding. Current Wow, whilst still fun, has become an exercise in a few clicks, get reward, log out, rinse and repeat (and this since second half of WOTLK when everything went pear shaped). If they added vanilla Wow to the sub for the main game, a lot more subs would be paid for. I think there is room for both but as it stands now, this expansion - Legion, was fun but clearly with the tiny size of the continent and easy accessibility of rewards, it's not going to have lasting appeal. I also don't believe in Ilvl, I think it ruins the game, mythic raiding, same boss different stats with more or less adds etc, it's never worked for me. I firmly believe there are things you should not able to obtain if you don't put in the hard slog and I am talking about vanilla 40 main raids and such. I don't currently have time for those and that is 100% fine. Same with PVP, it should take a long time to be rewarded. And I am not even talking about battlegrounds that go on for 24 hours (a fantastic thing to have in a game, you feel part of something historic, some real time strife going on that you can dip in and out of). I think classic PVP (wasnt there in vanilla launch) up until Wintergrasp was good and after that, it went to pot. Actually pre TBC was probably the best for PVP days, I also think arenas was rubbish and not part of the true game.

So, I remain unsubbed to Legion but I am playing Wow vanilla for free (warts and all). I would happily pay Blizzard for that experience but there is no option to do so. Your loss Blizzard. It's your game, sort it out. I wonder if the lack of monetisation is a deterrent? No shop, no paid services. A sub not good enough Blizzard? As I said, include vanilla in main sub, people will play both.

TLR - Vanilla is great. Current is good. But different. Let us play both.

[Evangeliste]

No, the two were compared compared in the sense of "your weapon skills become stronger as your character becomes more accustomed to it."


*FWOOSH*

That's the sound of the point going right over your head. I purposely misspelled "you're" and did not add a coma (since the correct spelling is "no, you're wrong") to illustrate the type of thoughtless response yours was, since it boils down to just you calling him wrong without offering nothing to counter his comparison.

Just for future reference, it's not a comma (and a coma is a state of unconsciousness in which a person cannot be awakened) that implies as a missing letter to create "you are" to "you're" but an apostrophe. My point of this exercise is although you were making a point on literacy, you should include proper definition with your explanation just so someone doesn't find your response actually ironic.


As for the topic, any part of the game you first come to, regardless of the flaws that you technically can't perceive since you didn't experience previous expansions/classic, will always remain close to your heart. Nostalgia also makes it a lot better because also perhaps it relates to a time and place you enjoyed - childhood has a similar thing like "I use to love that kid's show! The new version sucks!".
I don't think you'll really find much that is generally better or worse because opinion will always dictate to the individual. Some love the artifacts and their system, understand the ideal behind it whilst others would rather grind out raids to get a drop. I personally loved Wrath of the Lich King, some won't because systems in place or PvP was wrong and so on, doesn't really matter because at least 5 million people overall liked, let's say 8 years consistently which is pretty swell considering.

Just looked at that chart for the subs and wow that WoD drop is really harsh compared to the rest of the years before.

[Borfl]

The great things about pre-cata over its successors was there was a lot more server culture, the community wasn't totally filled with memeing retards, people were more committed because we were all locked into a raid together so people couldn't just drop out and find another raid, and your reputation mattered; people knew each other and you needed to network if you wanted to get anywhere. The game felt more alive back instead of the hotjoin AFK-in-dalaran/OH lobbygame it is today.

[Kyanion]

I'm interested in Blizzard putting Vanilla like design into future expansions. TBC had more than Vanilla, so what's your point? If fact TBC was nearly 12 million before WOTLK was released. WOTLK had very little growth.

Yeah keep your Vanilla desires infecting Legion out of retail thanks. I kind of like being able to play all specs of my class and not being told "Oh you are a druid. So you are the healer." Fuck. That. What you want hunters to use ammo again? Pass. You want the grind from 1-110+ to take months? No thanks.

And on the second point. Did TBC and WotLK have more players than Vanilla? Yes or no? If yes, we should go back to TBC and WotLK ideas and NOT Vanilla ideas because Vanilla wasn't as popular. Fun how this game works right? Hell even Cata started with and finished with more people than in Vanilla.

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Their game design guidelines have certainly changed over the years. The game is always about making money first, and increasing accessibility was thought to increase subs. As we can see in the graph, that never worked out for Blizzard. After WOTLK the game became more accessible and the subs declined. Whatever Blizzard is doing clearly isn't working.

Couldn't be the game just got older, players got older, newer genres of games came out (League anyone?).E-sports being a thing that isn't really focused on games like WoW, mobile games are a thing, hell even Facebook games were a big thing for a time. Nah it is ONLY because of increasing accessibility right? That's the only thing that caused sub loss. Right? My god that is funny.

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As for the topic, any part of the game you first come to, regardless of the flaws that you technically can't perceive since you didn't experience previous expansions/classic, will always remain close to your heart.

While that may be true in coming from one game to another game. As far as WoW goes I started in Open Beta right before Vanilla launch but I had been playing other MMOs and games of that variety for years. Vanilla was the first part of the game I came to, of course, but the part of the game that remains "close to my heart" using your words is TBC not Vanilla.

[InfiniteCharger]

Just because people liked vanilla WOW when it was the current iteration of the game does not mean they want "official" vanilla servers.
It is a bait and switch. So you liked "Vanilla" over current? You must want a vanilla server then right? No.

That is what this is boiling down to.

You can't relive the past. Vanilla WoW of 2004 is not the same as a private server now.
And Blizzards talk of "legacy realms" is not the same as a "vanilla private server" either.


Most people who liked Vanilla like elements of the game play that may have changed over time from the current game.
That does not mean they literally want to go back and redo the lvl 1-60 game all over again.
That is absurd.

[Heathy]

the mentality of players today is completely different, I doubt anything would be much different to legion if you were to put the current player base into classic today, it wouldn't last as long as it did, it wouldn't challenge as much as it did. ppl would be able to pug tier 1 and zg/aq20 where as there weren't as many pugs back then mostly because ppl didn't wanna get saved to a fail raid.

ppl are being disingenuous again with how much content there actually was at end game. 'the expansions are always a few zones' ok and there were only a few max level zones in vanilla there were about as many zones for level 60 as there are zones in an expansion.

expansions have less overall landmass, but they have more landmass for max level players. I mostly remember going between the eastern plaguelands, BRM and feralas, 3 zones, there was grinding rep in silithus but lets face it that was fucking boring so i'm not including it. in the end you ran 3 dungeons over and over again. for a lot of ppl strath scholo and ubrs was the entire end game. running those 3 dungeons was all there was to do at 60, again we can add the tribute runs aswell but they also died out faster than the other dungeons that drop dungeon set pieces.

there is more overall content in the game today, legion has way more 5 man content than vanilla did. than any expansion before it really.

I don't want to go back to a time where progression is so fucking slow that the majority of ppl don't reach the final tiers before a new expansion comes along. classic could have lasted most ppl another year. don't want to see that happen again so anything that makes it so the majority gets to see the content is fine by me. because seeing the content>not seeing the content.

as far as rpg elements go, whatever fluff the game lost wasn't that important in the first place, i've already discussed the weapon skills and things like rogue poisons, if they could have made them better or more interesting, that would have been cool, but they couldn't, they couldn't create fun game play out of their minor time sinks so they just cut the time sinks. not a big deal, wasn't any game play in those time sinks anyway. as far as i'm concerned, I'm still Playing a Role in a Game so yeah the game is still an rpg, by the very definition of an rpg, a role playing game, my role is healer, the game is wow, and i do play it.

i don't need to be able to scratch my testicles complete with animations for it to be considered a role playing game. a role playing game does not have to be a real life simulator either. rpgs can be deep or shallow. mmorpgs don't have the same level of freedom as single player rpgs, in an mmo you can't permanently kill off significant characters. hell even bethesda rpgs stop you from breaking the game by killing major quest npcs a lot of those are invincible. last single player game i played that felt like a real rpg with consequences was fallout 2. as far as i'm concerned the IP just went down hill after that in terms of role playing, theres more focus on shooting and less focus on talking, this is blatantly obvious with fo4. but you've never really been able to talk you way past obstacles in wow, there never has been a charisma stat or any part of the game that relied on sweet talking npcs to avoid a fight. there might be one or two occasions where you can trigger something that makes a fight easier. but old school talking your way out of a fight doesn't and hasn't existed in wow at all. a lot of wows role playing elements are in the form of emotes.

[Deleted]

Because legacy people aren't going "Retail is shit" or "WoW should remove the sub" either right? Oh wait.

Oh i know.
Should have written same ppl telling same opinions 100 pages later

[Sansnom]

These questions are not to arise mystique around yourself. They are questions, with answers available to the general public.

The questions did not sprout from thin air. They were crafted, believe it or not.

You are avoiding his/her question. Why you ask your questions is odd in the first place.