Guardian dead in 7.1.5

[Marrilaife]

Pay attention, Navarogg, we were talking about EN Mythic logs.

Problem with that though is EN stuff doesn't hit hard enough to measure a tankiness of a tank in dangerous situation and relevant gear. TOV mythic bosses hit hard enough it can be some measurement for the future, Nighthold and on. Atm EN is deep into farm territory for most mythic guilds (close to 5 thousand guilds killed mythic Xavius while only close to 300 killed M Helya and less than 2 thousand killed mythic Guarm) and those for whom it's still progress 1 week before NH opens, they aren't the guilds that finish content anyway and they usually have problems with executing tactics and not because "they play underpowered specs".

So let's say we talk about guilds for whom playing a good spec matters to some extent because executing tactics and playing your rotation isn't the biggest foe. Those have EN on farm, tanks go for dps or just slack, some raids are done just so joe schmoe can rank for funsies, content isn't challenging and doesn't force respect, I've seen at least couple of top guilds on my server (not super world top but those who have stuff on farm for long long time) wipe on mythic Xavius just because people don't give the boss any respect and try to rank so desperately they miss the designated dream pool (funny how 1 guild was streaming that Xavius shit fest).

You can't really judge if x tank class is OP or garbo from EN mythic because any tank can do it fairly effortlessly in the current average gear levels. Worth of a tank is only revealed on content where your survivability is challenged. Otherwise you might as well start the dps contest and we have tanks running with angerboda trinkets and dps-maximizing talents rather than caring about minimizing damage taken.

If we go back to when EN was challenging (some claim it never was), then it's pre nerf-buff reshuffle so we had first warriors then druids reigning supreme.

After the patch if we want to compare how tanks fare in the current state of the specs, TOV mythic is the only semi-relevant place to the discussion. That's why I assumed we'd talk TOV logs not EN. Since Odyn nerf that fight is a joke though, the only challenging part is for dps and healers to run left and right and stack / spread correctly. The 25% nerf to spear and other nerfs makes tanking Odyn doable and fine as anything probably.

Thing is it's indeed hard to find proper evidence which tank is gonna be awesome and which is gonna be bottom tier until NH mythic opens because atm we lack proper encounters to throw the 7.1.5. edition tanks against. We'll also get set bonuses in play in NH and so on. Then there's also a question of utility, hard to gauge the impact of stampeding roar vs mass grip vs spellwarding vs monk statue and so on, that depends on fights design and tactics developed. Utility that ends never used because of lack of fights that call for it is good only on paper.

Survivability wise, druids have a very versatile kit and they would have to be completely butchered to actually stop being good. As long as they have spammable mitigation against physical damage, spammable mitigation against magical damage, self heal, decent rage generation and extremely powerful artifact ability they will never be "dead". I think the least versatile kit was designed for monks and death knights so depending on tuning they will either be weak or extremely good (if buffed out of proportions).

[CenariusTheForestLord]

So you argue that it can't be measured, and just insist you're right with no evidence. That's hilarious. You expect us to accept you anecdotal evidence as the truth, simply because you want us to.
Argue the logs are flawed, but you linked the same logs to try and refute my point. You're pretty funny if you're serious.

I linked the logs to prove the logs are flawed, thereby removing the only evidence you gave from the equation and rendering your point moot.
I'm not using anecdotal evidence anywhere. The community in the tank and guardian discords combined can't be presented as anecdotal.
Nowhere in my statement have I said I believe druids to be best, therefore they are best. Every tank i have spoken to about 7.1.5 changes has confirmed my idea that druids are still the best tanks at the moment. Closely followed by BRM's, paladins and warriors.

[CitizenWoot]

As you said, the sample size is too small to draw conclusions from ToV Mythic at this point... Also, the RNG of gear drops is going to be a lot less relevant in an instance that has run longer. The players running EN Mythic are the most stable pool from which to draw conclusions. It's not perfect, and I never claimed it was, but it's still the most stable pool of data from which to draw conclusions. EN was out a lot longer before this patch. As you put it, guilds have this on farm. This is a good thing for data purposes as it rules out potential unfamiliarity with the content. The idea was to take a set of data that minimized all other variable to their smallest possible influence. This is the only way to isolate just the tank changes. Do you get it yet? It's not a perfect metric, but it's the best non-anecdotal method we have.

All I have been trying to say is that bear in T1 spot is not supported by the Data. It's an opinion. Bears were OP we got brought in line. I still feel bear has the best toolkit for tanks, but that's my opinion. If the tanks are balanced, then there is no T1 tank. We're still in a good place. I never said we weren't. I'm saying we are not clearly the best choice anymore.

[Marrilaife]

All I have been trying to say is that bear in T1 spot is not supported by the Data. It's an opinion. Bears were OP we got brought in line. I still feel bear has the best toolkit for tanks, but that's my opinion. If the tanks are balanced, then there is no T1 tank. We're still in a good place. I never said we weren't. I'm saying we are not clearly the best choice anymore.

Yeah, but we can both agree that even if they aren't heads and shoulders above all the other tanks anymore it's still far away from "guardian dead" as the thread title states.

And yes, we just lack a good metric atm that wouldn't be tainted in some manner. Except sample size and "farm status" there's also the thing people need to get used to class changes.

I would much more prefer a world where there isn't the no. 1 "go to" class and the "shit class no one wants to invite". It shows lack of balancing attempts from the devs. For example from healers mistweavers are slowly fading into the status "only good for pvp" and that's also problematic since from what I saw from pvp community healers are pointless due too much dps burst. People should be able to pick a class they like for playstyle and not "pick this class cuz it's 5 times better than the other one".

Still it seems from the opinions of better tanks than me if any tank class is "rip dead and buried" it's dks and maybe dhs (will see in NH if the buffs helped also I heard their 4set is good). I'm not trying to prove druids are still OP (because I honestly don't know) I'm just disagreeing with the whole "rip bear panic mode on" community reaction when something gets nerfed.

Tbh I see exactly the same overreactions from warrior community ("rip warrior we're getting dps nerf") and dk ("rip dk blooddrinker got nerfed"), dks maybe need some buffs somewhere but that talent was defo broken.

[ONCHEhap]

Nerf to the ground. Everything nerfed to the ground. Why so? We were so op? Wtf, i dont get it

if that's a nerf to the ground,then all other tank specs are at least 30 meters below ground
You just went from god-tier to "still god but just a little less"-tier

[Soulwell]

As you said, the sample size is too small to draw conclusions from ToV Mythic at this point... Also, the RNG of gear drops is going to be a lot less relevant in an instance that has run longer. The players running EN Mythic are the most stable pool from which to draw conclusions. It's not perfect, and I never claimed it was, but it's still the most stable pool of data from which to draw conclusions. EN was out a lot longer before this patch. As you put it, guilds have this on farm. This is a good thing for data purposes as it rules out potential unfamiliarity with the content. The idea was to take a set of data that minimized all other variable to their smallest possible influence. This is the only way to isolate just the tank changes. Do you get it yet? It's not a perfect metric, but it's the best non-anecdotal method we have.

All I have been trying to say is that bear in T1 spot is not supported by the Data. It's an opinion. Bears were OP we got brought in line. I still feel bear has the best toolkit for tanks, but that's my opinion. If the tanks are balanced, then there is no T1 tank. We're still in a good place. I never said we weren't. I'm saying we are not clearly the best choice anymore.

I see what you're saying but these logs aren't really relevant considering it's only one week of "data" when even most guilds are running split runs or just not clearing en anymore. Tanks are certainly not balanced Druids/Warriors are quite a ways ahead of every other tank.

if that's a nerf to the ground,then all other tank specs are at least 30 meters below ground
You just went from god-tier to "still god but just a little less"-tier

Eh we almost go back to what we were with the 2s set

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Nerf to the ground. Everything nerfed to the ground. Why so? We were so op? Wtf, i dont get it

Seriously? O.o lol Nah you must be trolling.

Guardians will still be the strongest tanks in the game. Ask anyone who raids at a high level. The gap between bears and the other tanks has closed a bit; that is all.

[Deleted]

I've seen at least couple of top guilds on my server (not super world top but those who have stuff on farm for long long time) wipe on mythic Xavius just because people don't give the boss any respect and try to rank so desperately they miss the designated dream pool (funny how 1 guild was streaming that Xavius shit fest).

Been there, done that, hated life for a few hours.


@CitizenWoot: The problem with your claim that "the data doesn't bear it out" is, that realistically speaking you present no data. You present KRSI values for a raid in which no damage is dealt. KSRI is at best obsolete and at worst useless. The creator of the metric himself posted that the metric isn't working right in September of 2015. Why might bears be bad on these metrics you might ask: Simple scenario: We are doing Nythendra a boss on which I want to catweave as much as possible. My cotank is a DH or a warrior, so he wants to get hit as often as possible to generate ressources, so we give him the boss at all times when he isn't running out. Since he has aggro for most of the fight, his KRSI is a lot better. Also warriors and druids can easily use their resources for damage instead of tankiness, which is what we should do on farm. A monk doesn't have that option, therefore there tankiness rankings should be better on farm than ours.

TL;DR: There is no useful tank metric, other than maybe damage done, so the data you posted is meaningless.

[ONCHEhap]

Been there, done that, hated life for a few hours.


@CitizenWoot: The problem with your claim that "the data doesn't bear it out" is, that realistically speaking you present no data. You present KRSI values for a raid in which no damage is dealt. KSRI is at best obsolete and at worst useless. The creator of the metric himself posted that the metric isn't working right in September of 2015. Why might bears be bad on these metrics you might ask: Simple scenario: We are doing Nythendra a boss on which I want to catweave as much as possible. My cotank is a DH or a warrior, so he wants to get hit as often as possible to generate ressources, so we give him the boss at all times when he isn't running out. Since he has aggro for most of the fight, his KRSI is a lot better. Also warriors and druids can easily use their resources for damage instead of tankiness, which is what we should do on farm. A monk doesn't have that option, therefore there tankiness rankings should be better on farm than ours.

TL;DR: There is no useful tank metric, other than maybe damage done, so the data you posted is meaningless.

the only thing close to a metric for tank was KRSI,and it wasn't great
KRSI is resolve weighted,resolve doesn't exist anymore.
So yeah,we have no metric,I don't even know how he can come up with a KRSI anymore since some of its main variables were simply removed

[Restors]

Nerf to the ground. Everything nerfed to the ground. Why so? We were so op? Wtf, i dont get it

I dont see any notes on this, could you link a source on the nerfs?

[Thorbalt]

They had to nerf Iron Fur, and they may have to nerf it yet again before 7.3. Geared bears were able to surpass the armor cap on PTR, meaning that our mitigation scaling would pretty much ... stop ... at some point in Nighthold. Bears were in need of some nerfing to begin with, so knocking 20% off of our armor buff is one of the best nerfs we could have asked for. As long as we're still able to tank effectively in 7.1.5 (and we will), it means we'll continue to scale in future content.

Dont bother trying to explain to fotm rerollers who dont remember how many times bearform got its bonus armor nerfed in bc and wrath because we were too good at maxing it out

[TheFirstOnes]

i have read your posts and here is the solution. i am an experienced top 100 guardian druid and have had no issues with mythic ToV/EN or +15 mythics.

the problem here is how you are all playing. the icy veins guide is a good starter for the new guardian druid but you need to know what is happening mechanics wise in dungeons/raids.

you also need to have knowledge of tanking and what it is all about , it is not enough to know a rotation off by heart and think it will see you through.

I call Bullshit until i'm shown proof.

[beatmyface]

9/10M last reset and 6/10H so far this reset. Zero issues as a bear running the RnT build vs Pulverize build

[Vitinariy]

the only thing close to a metric for tank was KRSI,and it wasn't great
KRSI is resolve weighted,resolve doesn't exist anymore.
So yeah,we have no metric,I don't even know how he can come up with a KRSI anymore since some of its main variables were simply removed

I feel like the only relevant tank metric is survivability, which you can break down into two main buckets: total damage taken/mitigated/self-healed, and spikiness (how often you take really hard hits and how big are they compared to your HP pool). As long as you can comfortably survive the boss, everything else (like DPS) is just cherry on the top. From what I have seen so far, bears have literally 0 survival issues.

[Deleted]

Nerf to the ground. Everything nerfed to the ground. Why so? We were so op? Wtf, i dont get it

Yep. Totally dead. Only no-name baddies will be playing Guardian in NH
Your only recourse is to reroll. Try Warrior they seem totally OP.

/sarcasm

[Marrilaife]

Yep. Totally dead. Only no-name baddies will be playing Guardian in NH
Your only recourse is to reroll. Try Warrior they seem totally OP.

/sarcasm

Nah, you should defo reroll DK. I mean Sco rated the tanks starting from Druids ending with DKs he for sure must have gotten it wrong in reverse order?

<insert kappaface>

[Kaeth]

Got Gul'dan's tanking trinket the other night (with Leech and a socket, YES!) and discovered that its max absorption effect scales with Mastery (it was already obvious from datamining that it scales with Versatility). Nearly 5,000,000 max absorb over 20s on a trinket with a base of about 3.5 million.

Yeah, bears are dead this patch.

[Protozoa7]

Is there any way to request a thread be locked? This thing is just getting ridiculous.

[Marrilaife]

Is there any way to request a thread be locked? This thing is just getting ridiculous.

You can click report on the first post and request that. But will mods agree or not that's another story. Depending on your reasoning maybe.

[CitizenWoot]

Yup. Dead. Can't do it. To be fair I am running Prydaz / Ekowrath, so we can 2 heal our 10. This was taken in LFR Skorp. Pulled all the spiders to the side of the boss every time. Noticed the spawn is on timer with Focused Blast, at least on LFR.