What relics after 7.1.5 MA nerf for Sin?

[Elyzibeth]

So I had 2 MA relics, level 850 and 855, the 3rd was an 875 gushing equipped. I assume I should just drop my 2 MA relics asap for gushing or Envenom since I don't have the boots. I'm not sure what the mastery level is that a person needs to swap to MP/AP, but I'm mid 120's. Any advice?

Here is my toon: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/gear/u...kull/elyzibeth

I assume AMR isn't up to date with the new patch as MP/AP sims way lower for me with vigor compared to the old EP/AP with DS.

[Deleted]

What if you have the 3 MA relics and the Boots? it still works?

Did some math calcs on my own WITH BOOTS!!

- ~uptime of the 30% vendetta damage buff with boots but without the MA relics is around 33%(CD 60,3seconds). So 30x0,33 = 10,2% increased vendetta damage over the whole fight lenghts . ONLY for the damage buff not the dot!


- ~uptime with 1 MA relic is 36,35% (55seconds cd , with boots the 8 seconds from the first MA relic doesnt add absolute, because the base cd is already lowered by boots) 36,35%. So 30x0,3635 = 10,9%.
It is an overall dps increase by 0,7% , which alone is better then any other relic trait, the extra dot damage over the time is added on top (its only a small increase)! Next best trait is gushing wounds with an ~0,62% overall dps increase.


~ uptime with 3 MA relics is 41,66% (48 seconds , the 3 MA relics adding 18 seconds, with boots itll end up by aproximitly 12seconds)
So 30x0,4166 = 12,5% overall damage increase. Difference between 0 MA relics , and 3 MA relics is 2,3% overall damage.
2,3/3= 0,766% overall damage increase per MA relic when 3 relics are equiped. NOT including the extra dot damage

so even when the third MA relic only adds 4 seconds , its still better to equip 3 not 1 MA relic.

The REAL big Problem with the math is: If you finish the boss encounter before you could cast your last vendetta, the MA relic is a minor damage decrease. On longer fights ( 6-7+ minutes) it should be still a good upgrade. Blizzard did a good math there, 4 seconds are looking way to bad , but if you do the math its calculed with boots in mind!

Also keep in mind: if you got a gushing wound relic which is 10 item level higher then your MA relic it is a good upgrade! So only use MA relics over gushing wound when its even or higher in ilvl.

[DakonBlackblade]

Im guessing ppl who don't have boots will either pick envenom, rupture damage or rupture crit relics (since Nighthold actualy only has 1 rup damage relic, were stuck with a crit relic for at least 1 slot), and if you have boots you go for anything, it seens like Vendetta CDs are the best but not by too large of a margin.

[Deleted]

Amazing...... fantastic..... It was nice for the time it was like this... Thanks Blizzard!

[Won7on]

For what it's worth, with boots, 2MA+Rupture simmed 7k lower than 3MA for me.

[Deleted]

Im very comfused now of wat to do... I dont have the boots and im using 3 MA relics.. So should i w8 for the trinket then it would be fine again? Or should i farm again relics :S :S

[ribthanwa]

Im very comfused now of wat to do... I dont have the boots and im using 3 MA relics.. So should i w8 for the trinket then it would be fine again? Or should i farm again relics :S :S

Unless you expect to have the trinket as first dibbs, guaranteed chance, no doubt, I would probably recommend faming up some relics. You really should have been banking high ilvl ones with decent traits for a while now since the ptr went up.

[Laurix]

For what it's worth, with boots, 2MA+Rupture simmed 7k lower than 3MA for me.

What'd you sim with? Is the newest SimC updated with the relic nerf? I wanted to test this myself as well.

[Deleted]

For what it's worth, with boots, 2MA+Rupture simmed 7k lower than 3MA for me.

just curious how to deal with it without boots. Got 5 legendarys so far and not 1 been boots, bracers or good ring.

[iky43210]

Did some math calcs on my own WITH BOOTS!!

- ~uptime of the 30% vendetta damage buff with boots but without the MA relics is around 33%(CD 60,3seconds). So 30x0,33 = 10,2% increased vendetta damage over the whole fight lenghts . ONLY for the damage buff not the dot!


- ~uptime with 1 MA relic is 36,35% (55seconds cd , with boots the 8 seconds from the first MA relic doesnt add absolute, because the base cd is already lowered by boots) 36,35%. So 30x0,3635 = 10,9%.
It is an overall dps increase by 0,7% , which alone is better then any other relic trait, the extra dot damage over the time is added on top (its only a small increase)! Next best trait is gushing wounds with an ~0,62% overall dps increase.


~ uptime with 3 MA relics is 41,66% (48 seconds , the 3 MA relics adding 18 seconds, with boots itll end up by aproximitly 12seconds)
So 30x0,4166 = 12,5% overall damage increase. Difference between 0 MA relics , and 3 MA relics is 2,3% overall damage.
2,3/3= 0,766% overall damage increase per MA relic when 3 relics are equiped. NOT including the extra dot damage

so even when the third MA relic only adds 4 seconds , its still better to equip 3 not 1 MA relic.

The REAL big Problem with the math is: If you finish the boss encounter before you could cast your last vendetta, the MA relic is a minor damage decrease. On longer fights ( 6-7+ minutes) it should be still a good upgrade. Blizzard did a good math there, 4 seconds are looking way to bad , but if you do the math its calculed with boots in mind!

Also keep in mind: if you got a gushing wound relic which is 10 item level higher then your MA relic it is a good upgrade! So only use MA relics over gushing wound when its even or higher in ilvl.

gushing wound scales with cleave, MA doesn't. Its easy picking, given that most fights in NH have cleaves or aoe.

There's no point of using MA relics unless you can't find envenom or rupture dmg.

[Uni73]

gushing wound scales with cleave, MA doesn't. Its easy picking, given that most fights in NH have cleaves or aoe.

There's no point of using MA relics unless you can't find envenom or rupture dmg.

Except for people with the boots, who are basically forced into using 3 MA now unless they want a messed up cooldown on Vendetta relative to exsang/KB.

I have boots +3 MA and it seems to bring Vendetta to ~45 sec cd now, which is nice.

[Won7on]

What'd you sim with? Is the newest SimC updated with the relic nerf? I wanted to test this myself as well.

Newest build here is updated, yes: http://downloads.simulationcraft.org/?C=M;O=D

My Vendetta interval went from about 47 seconds pre-patch to about 50.5 in the newest sim. With 3 MA, that becomes 47.75 sec again. With 3 MA + Convergence of Fates, I'm looking at 39.43 seconds.

I should mention I was comparing a 880 Rupture relic to a 880 MA relic, of course. MP + Vigor + AP. Trying to sim ilvl-relic equivalence is too complicated for me, I'll wait for one of the pros to do that.

[Ujio]

Why the fuck do they drop changes like this the day before patch? Un-fucking-believable...

[DakonBlackblade]

gushing wound scales with cleave, MA doesn't. Its easy picking, given that most fights in NH have cleaves or aoe.

There's no point of using MA relics unless you can't find envenom or rupture dmg.

NH has a shadow envenom relic a blood rup damage and an iron rup crit, there is no way to get 2 or 3 rup damage from NH nor 2 oe 3 envenom damage ones. So we are basicaly stuck with this comp of 1 rup damage 1 rup crit and 1 envenom damage, the only relic where there is a "choice" is the blood slot where we have a rup crit and a rup damage, rup crit is worse but is not bad so we can actually get that if it drops or you coin one, aside from that you really only have 1 option.

[Nekroman]

Not to rub it in anyones face or anything, truly.. am I still safe with 3xma and boots?

[Deleted]

So this is a split into two camps, assassin rogue with boots and 45 ich sec cd vendetta and rogues like me who look at 1,5 min cd? This legendary system is the blame for most bad things in legion imao

[Deleted]

Why the fuck do they drop changes like this the day before patch? Un-fucking-believable...

The day before patch? You wish. This wasn't even on the patch notes, they just dumped it on us on patch day.

[Leetbeartank]

why nerf boots? even in single target with now old 3MA and convergences of fates they are only 1K dps above the wrists

Because I didn't win the boots or wrists lottery. It's just magnifying legendaries more than before. I thought they were trying to make legendaries less important.

[Belenath]

So, assuming we have no boots and ditch the MA relics as well as go with Vigor instead of Deeper Stratagem, where does Nightstalker fall in? Still always the best in a poor talent tier for Assassination?

Or are we essentially looking at a 3 minute Vanish CD instead of 2? As it should line up at the 0:00, 3 minute, and 6 minute parts of the fight if we're still syncing it with Vendetta at 1.5 minute CDs?

[Belenath]

Are ppl really surprised they nerfed this? It's pretty easy to figure out that Blizz never had any intention of people ignoring all the other relics in favor of just MA. In fact, I'd have been surprised if they didn't nerf it. And I say this as a rogue that just over-wrote two much higher iLvL relics for MA. Totally expected unless you live in a fantasy world.

Not sure why expecting this is relevant to the way Blizzard handled the nerf. If they had announced it at the beginning of the PTR(like they did almost everything for say, Mages) and given people time to test it, the backlash wouldn't have been as bad. Instead it gets stealthed into the patch with no notice, and no explanation or compensation. Unfortunately, the latter part of that appears to be the case for most of the rogue trait nerfs, as Outlaw has experienced over and over.