Study: Majority of muslim students training to be teachers in Germany deny evolution

[Thepersona]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Reality is that too many people (especially theoretical scientists) are arrogant enough to think they have worked out how things are.

It wouldn't be a bad thing for the crazy to stop for a while, take stock and humbly go over what we think we know. Then the learning can begin.

On the social side of things, i don't think the "progress" has made anybody any happier. In fact it has done the opposite. It wouldn't be bad for it to go back to simplicity again and let people actually enjoy life.

Ahhh the gold old times, when cancer was a 100% certain death sentence. And diabetes was too. When you couldnt safely drink water, or when a mother had a high risk of dying during childbirth

[sethman75]

Evolution is a proven fsct, not because is being taught in schools, but because the sheer amounts of evidence that supports it. Theres even a proof of evolution in our lifetime, the london subway mosquito
And no. Species have a common ancestor, because all of the living beings use dna as their genetic code

You mean the THEORY of evolution is fact!!!!!

Nice cop-out. When it is proven to be false, the scrambling scientists can then say well it was only a theory

[Deleted]

German teachers are being instructed to not indoctrinate kids with religious beliefs. Thats part of the prerequisites to become and stay teacher in public schools in germany.

[Thepersona]

You mean the THEORY of evolution is fact!!!!!

Nice cop-out. When it is proven to be false, the scrambling scientists can then say well it was only a theory

You know what theory means inthe scientific world?
I think you dont, but i wouldnt have faith in conservative people knowing anything about science

FYI: Theory=/=scientific tern of Theory. What you're trying to mean is hypothesis

[Runenwächter]

What you are writing is simply incorrect, if you pretend that you did find a cure, why is it that according to the study that you linked only 80% of christian student accept evolution as an established scientific theory while 41% of muslims also agree that evolution is scientific fact? To pretend that muslims need to be cured just because the percentage is double as high is downplaying the amount of christian students that deny evolution.
Let's discuss the actual numbers.
According to your link, 46% of the german population identify as christians, while 4,4% identify as muslims. From 2003-2016 there were 2.86 million students in germany, about 10% of these students study to become a teacher, that leaves us with 286.000 future teachers. 46% of these future teachers are christians which means we have a total number of 131.560 future christian teachers. 20% of these christians deny evolution, which means 26.312 christian evolution deniers.
From the 286.000 future teachers, 4,4% are muslims which means 12.584 future muslim teachers. 59% of these future muslim teachers deny evolution, which means 7.424 future muslim evolution deniers.
So we will have to deal with 26.312 christian evolution deniers and 7.424 muslim evolution deniers. That means almost 4x as much christian evolution deniers compared to muslim evolution deniers, given these numbers, it doesn't makes much sense to focus on the muslims if you are truly worried about evolution deniers and the impact they will have their students (if any at all, since I doubt they want to be biology teachers). We have a bigger fish to fry and it's not the muslims.

Would you extend this line of argument to the fight against terror, thus dropping any efforts to stop anyone but those with the highest bodycount?
Or to the fight against disease, where virus and bacteria with high mortality rate mostly end up killing far less people than the flu?

No, I dont think you would. Because it is asinine. It is a classic attempt of what-about-ism and deflecting the argument.

[JohnBrown1917]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Reality is that too many people (especially theoretical scientists) are arrogant enough to think they have worked out how things are.

It wouldn't be a bad thing for the crazy to stop for a while, take stock and humbly go over what we think we know. Then the learning can begin.

Feel feel to disprove scientific theories, but not everybody agreeing with them should not mean they should not be taught in school

On the social side of things, i don't think the "progress" has made anybody any happier. In fact it has done the opposite. It wouldn't be bad for it to go back to simplicity again and let people actually enjoy life.

Curious as to what kind of progress you mean.

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Ahhh the gold old times, when cancer was a 100% certain death sentence. And diabetes was too. When you couldnt safely drink water, or when a mother had a high risk of dying during childbirth

Or during feudal times, with the biggest class gaps we have ever had!
...Although some Americans/capitalists would love those kind of gaps.

[Deleted]

Would you extend this line of argument to the fight against terror, thus dropping any efforts to stop anyone but those with the highest bodycount?
Or to the fight against disease, where virus and bacteria with high mortality rate mostly end up killing far less people than the flu?

No, I dont think you would. Because it is asinine. It is a classic attempt of what-about-ism and deflecting the argument.

It simply doesn't makes much sense to focus on one group that denies evolution, when you have another much larger group that denies evolution.

[Kraenen]

Generally speaking I'd prefer scientifically minded people teaching science since it will rub off on the kids on some level. Rather that than more closed-minded tautological unfalsifiable thought being reinforced.

I do wonder if the people who defended that Prof who wouldn't hire any creationist would defend this state of affairs.

[Cosmic Janitor]

I think I haven't even actually met a catholic priest yet that believed in creationism, certainly not the version where the earth is just a couple thousand years old. All of them of them usually argue it's more a metaphor, I mean most of the german ones usually have to pass some form of higher education and you have to be quite tricky to actually pass up on basic biology in many cases. How they actually found 20% that deny it boggles my mind. This sounds more like they asked some very old folks and like with most things they didn't understand the question and answered something at random .. but it says students. I don't get it.

Edit: Even more so as religious people I'd expect christans to know that they are kinda supposed to ignore the majority of the old testatement, because not applicable.

[Gmollster11]

As long as you evolution believers keep referring to it properly as a "theory", its all good.

Educated Christians believe in "micro-evolution" but not macro. Yes, things adapt and modify to their surroundings. But under no circumstance did a beetle evolve into a hawk or a crab evolve into a person.

[Deleted]

You mean the THEORY of evolution is fact!!!!!

Nice cop-out. When it is proven to be false, the scrambling scientists can then say well it was only a theory

The only part that is theory is what happend in the past because there are alot of holes in the evolution time of remains.
Evolution taking place is fact, we see it happen in micro organisme, why do you think we becoming resistent to antibiotics? Its because of mutations and evolution. We got currently alot of big and small dogs because of human breeding programs what basicly creates separations of population what create evolution between one animal. Evolution facts are everywhere and we humans use evolution in the bio sector a long time to alter animals and plants for our own benefits.

[Runenwächter]

You specifically spoke of separation, and how keeping together was a bad thing (in your eyes). You complained about "less authoritarian" means of education.

Once again, you aren't going to teach people to let go of their beliefs via force, unless you are prepared to use a significant amount of it. Education should be the priority, not forced programming into a specific mindset. What you propose, is the exact same thing you claim you are trying to stop their parents and families from doing. You wish to discriminate based on belief and religion, and to tailor education authoritarianism based on it. No thank you.

No, you do not need to consider harsher options, you need to give it time. You are contradicting yourself constantly at this point. You want to force your beliefs onto others, just stop.

No really I'm not and it is about time you kind of point out how what I propose inevitably leads to your conclusions. You have missed out on that so far. It is beyond me why you even argue at this point. At least demonstrate how I am wrong in regards to the failure purely anti-authoritarian teaching methods. Please remember we are talking about people who are here in their 3rd or 4th generation. Do give me a timeframe when we can reasonably expect these attitudes to disappear by themselves.

At no point did I suggest or remark on discriminating against a person based on them belonging to a specific religious group, but suggested it might be wise to flesh out the secular nature of the education system and create the necessary legislation to protect it in case these attitudes persist in the educators of tomorrow.

I strongly suggest that you reconsider your approach at holding a conversation at this point, because I get the impression I'm not dealing with arguments specific to the context that you put thought into, but with a automated response and defense system that activates when some deeply held belief is under threat.

[Thepersona]

As long as you evolution believers keep referring to it properly as a "theory", its all good.

Educated Christians believe in "micro-evolution" but not macro. Yes, things adapt and modify to their surroundings. But under no circumstance did a beetle evolve into a hawk or a crab evolve into a person.

Because thats not how evolution works. Thats not how anythig works. The level of stupidity baffles me. Our last common ancestor with crabs is like 550 million years ago, when chordates appeared, and its around the same time between a hawk and a beetle

[Machismo]

You literally called for more authoritarian forms of teaching based on beliefs and religion. Those were your words, if you want proof, just scroll up.

As for discrimination, that is the definition of the word. You may not think it is, but that is exactly what you called for.

This is also why you didn't want to talk abut other countries, or other religions, because you clearly have an agenda in all of this. You didn't like comparisons, because it took away from the narrative you were trying to push.

[Jotaux]

It's hilarious just how much Deep South conservatives have in common with Muslims.

I honestly don't understand why they are at such odds with each other. They believe in almost all the same things with very minor differences.

[Tomyris]

Again the words "continued influx of people like these" is nowhere to be found in my post. I made it crystal clear why the people arriving during the refugee crisis are not amongst those examined so I will treat further attemps to bring them up as an attempt to derail the discussion.

Well, fair enough. It is not like I can have a decent discussion with someone who does not remember what he said in the OP. It is indeed a derail.

On the topic at hand, what is the solution? Implement a law that says a teacher not only has to respect the curriculum but out loud deny creationism, specify it in the contract? Is this really a problem in Germany right now, that others here can confirm? Are the pupils being indoctrinated?

[Thepersona]

I honestly don't understand why they are at such odds with each other. They believe in almost all the same things with very minor differences.

Its because they're brown

[Thepersona]

It all makes sense now.....

What, will you go again saying the stupid nonsense that cstholicism isnt part of christianity, ignoring the evidence of catholics neing the first group of christians?

[Deleted]

At no point did I suggest or remark on discriminating against a person based on them belonging to a specific religious group

No, but you use a credible source for scaremongering.

[Jotaux]

As long as you evolution believers keep referring to it properly as a "theory", its all good.

Educated Christians believe in "micro-evolution" but not macro. Yes, things adapt and modify to their surroundings. But under no circumstance did a beetle evolve into a hawk or a crab evolve into a person.

Theories are almost synonymous with laws. Gravity is a theory for example. To say evolution is a theory means that it has been thoroughly tested and we have the highest level of certainty that it is true.