Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

**Charge me Doctor** · 2017-01-12, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Trimshadow

And yet over all he did around 80k LESS damage on the 11th compared to the december parse... great blizz balancing there!

Not really, his active DPS stayed relatively the same (527 @7.1.5 vs 561 @7.1). I would also argue that DHs AoE damage got buffed significantly and hunter just had nothing to shoot at

Deleted · 2017-01-12, 07:50 AM

I really hope blizzard is gonna thrw in some buffs before our first mythic week...

atm I do not even care if it's for bm or mm because our current ST feels like garbage compared to most classes.

**thilicen** · 2017-01-12, 08:35 AM

Our hunters went from being top 4 to bottom 5 in one patch. I can't understand how Blizzard are able to fail so fucking hard at class balance every single time. It's as if they are mentally incapable of grasping the concept. Just hope we don't start losing people to this bullshit.

Deleted · 2017-01-12, 08:35 AM

Originally Posted by Nogahn

atm I do not even care if it's for bm or mm because our current ST feels like garbage compared to most classes.

our cleave feels like garbage and our AOE feels like garbage too. Everything is fucked up right now!!! Why changing a smooth MM specc with "Ok" ST dmg and good cleave dmg. Other classes had/have better AOE and cleave (DHs, Fire Mages...).

**ydraw** · 2017-01-12, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by GothamCity

No real discussion can come from hyperbole. Case in point this thread. I agree hunters are under tuned. Hyperbole and whining is not how you get good intelligent discussion and solutions however. That's all I was trying to point out

Sorry but it's not hyperbole at all. The original post linked to rankings. The top hunters in the world are doing 600k dps. Every other class has rankings in excess of 700k. Some of the stronger classes like Shadow Priests and ret pallies are doing 800k. That is 100k dps difference. Not hyperbole. Fact.

I just checked again with another day's worth of logs. Top hunters still only 600k Every other class bar Shamans and Monks has multiple ranks over 700k.

Not hyperbole, fact.

Deleted · 2017-01-12, 08:54 AM

Lmao all hunters are crybabies. Did you ever see Ele forums being toxic and crybabies at release? No. Stop playing a class because it is '' the best'' of course you will get nerfed. unless you are going for world 1st just play whatever

**Charge me Doctor** · 2017-01-12, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by ydraw

Sorry but it's not hyperbole at all. The original post linked to rankings. The top hunters in the world are doing 600k dps. Every other class has rankings in excess of 700k. Some of the stronger classes like Shadow Priests and ret pallies are doing 800k. That is 100k dps difference. Not hyperbole. Fact.

**ydraw** · 2017-01-12, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

Why would you choose a specific item level? Change it to "all item levels", plenty of 700k parses there. Many more on Nythendra and Ursoc.

The top ranged hunter on mythic Guarm is 566k DPS. Easily 100k behind many other classes. And mythic Guarm is the fight with the least difference between specs. And the least number of logs. There are barely 200 logs for mythic Guarm up at the moment. Take a look at other fights where the difference is even more stark.

Nythendra: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ship&boss=1853

**Charge me Doctor** · 2017-01-12, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by ydraw

Why would you choose a specific item level? Change it to "all item levels", plenty of 700k parses there. Many more on Nythendra and Ursoc.

Because it's an average top-end ilvl with lots of parses.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...er&spec=Ranged
For all guarm parses - same result.
I pick Guarm fight because it's closest to tank&spank fight and not outdate tank&spank fight. Ursoc and Nythendra are fights with adds (bladestorming into bunch of MCd players is not only a great strategy to quickly deal with MC, but also great way to boost your DPS, same with Ursoc - sons are great way to cleave your DPS up (that's why SPs are on top here)).

**ydraw** · 2017-01-12, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

Because it's an average top-end ilvl with lots of parses.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...er&spec=Ranged
For all guarm parses - same result.
I pick Guarm fight because it's closest to tank&spank fight and not outdate tank&spank fight. Ursoc and Nythendra are fights with adds (bladestorming into bunch of MCd players is not only a great strategy to quickly deal with MC, but also great way to boost your DPS, same with Ursoc - sons are great way to cleave your DPS up (that's why SPs are on top here)).

Yes I understand your reasons for picking Guarm but you do realise that there aren't enough parses yet for Mythic Guarm to really show any trends. I mean there are less than 200 mythic Guarm logs up. That's why I prefer the EN numbers.

Also I am pretty sure that WL doesn't count damage to players on Nythendra, unless they are also called "Nythendra". And in any case, hunter cleave should be as good as any other class on Nythendra, so it's no reason to dismiss the logs because it contains a tiny amount of burst cleave.

**Charge me Doctor** · 2017-01-12, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by ydraw

The top ranged hunter on mythic Guarm is 566k DPS. Easily 100k behind many other classes. And mythic Guarm is the fight with the least difference between specs. And the least number of logs. There are barely 200 logs for mythic Guarm up at the moment. Take a look at other fights where the difference is even more stark.

Nythendra: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ship&boss=1853

These 700k-800k parses are there because of an encounter, some classes are better at cleave and controlled burst, like arms warriors (they don't need to stack anything, just pop artifact and bladestorm), shadow priests (STM), Rets, etc.

Literally all of them are deliberate boost DPS of one player to make an encounter easier (the one dude with best on-demand burst cleans infested first, then everyone nukes the boss and gets as many people into infested mind state, then this one dude pops everyone out of MC because of crazy uncapped AoE damage)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ny%24false%240
See yourself, check other parses yourself, it's all the same - it's one dude going DIVIIIIINE STOOOORM at ~1:30 on 6-8 players.
But honestly, it's just ~3 mil damage and is almost irrelevant DPS boost, more important was trinket proc (read: cd stacking and two people dying right before CDs were popped huh) that gives insane damage boost. Seriously, how did his retribution procced two times when no one died?

TL;DR: 800k DPS on Nythendra is not result of class being imba, it's a result of following raid strategy that involves one extremely geared player with lots of uncapped burst AoE damage. cheese
Same for Ursoc - those who deal cleave damage (affliction, SPs, Rets, etc) do shine here, all others do 500-600k DPS, which is achievable by hunters and any other class here. cheese in DPS padding sandwich.

**Arenis** · 2017-01-12, 10:29 AM

Hunter has been my 'main' for some years now, I simply liked the bow+pet aspect. And even though I don't really raid, even I can notice the subpar damage and the godawful 'rotation' for both MM and BM. SV just doesn't attract me.

So like a month ago I began playing my olde druid, feral to be more precise. I really like the timing and snapshotting for bleeds (and the dynamic-ness of the class overall). But seeing the logs, they also look bottom tier.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

**Cerrion176** · 2017-01-12, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

Well that actually explains why i was able to finally outdamage our MM hunters on 2phase on Helya, but still, doesn't Vulnerable debuff have to be stacked? It looks like an issue with Sidewinders and not with Marked shot to me, and buffs to single target damage should be enough to compensate for this loss of burst AoE.

I still don't see this as a problem since hunters are not one-trick-pony as enhancement shamans used to be with their ring of fire ability. 28% nerf to damage on one ability is a lot, but it's not like all your DPS got reduced by 28%.

This is the exact ignorance of hunter mechanics that has created these problems to begin with. Most of your comments make it clear that you don't main a MM hunter and don't understand how SW worked with PS during 7.1. This isn't a problem as you're not balancing classes for Blizzard. For those of us who do play MM (and even BM to a lesser extent), it is obvious that whoever is in charge of hunter class balance at Blizzard is just as ignorant as you are (they even admitted they had no idea why the BM legendary belt was so important until someone explained it in detail). That ignorance has created the problems with 7.1.5 MM gameplay and damage. Personally, I saw a slight increase in ST (though still behind the buffs other classes received) and a 50% nerf to my AoE/cleave ability at the expense of very tedious gameplay coupled with punishing results if I even missed one AiS during a cycle due to movement within the Vulnerability window.

Throughout the entire PTR process for 7.1.5, posts here and on the official forums continually highlighted the issues being rehashed currently and no developers appeared to pay attention and continued making changes that were honestly baffling to most MM hunters and even BM hunters who got the word that they should expect to be lower than everyone because they were fully mobile. The baseline ignorance you've posted in this discussion is exactly what we've been trying to fight since the PTR came out.

A final point is that a pure dps class like hunters, mages, warlocks, and rogues should never have a point where all three of their specs are in the bottom half much less occupying the last three spots. Occasionally that has happened with the most recent example of warlocks right at launch and raids opening. Obviously that issue was fixed throughout the last 4 months. With the sweeping changes made to MM and the already abysmal state of BM/survival damage compared to all other classes in 7.1, the scenario playing out in front of us with all three hunter specs now last or at least bottom 1/3 (depending on how you want to look at numbers and nitpick) is exactly what we were all afraid was going to happen. The biggest issue for the future of hunters and more importantly MM will be how Blizzard reacts. Whatever their reaction is, I personally concerned that it will show the same ignorance that got us here and not fix the problem, just gloss over it until the next major patch or worse, next expansion.

Only bright light is the recent post from Blizzard

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Patch Notes
As long as I've been at blizzard (4 years) the patch notes haven't gone live until 6pmish the previous day. this is earlier.
but ultimately, yes, a lot went wrong, which we're fixing for the 7.2 notes (including PTR notes) (Source)
The light of the tunnel is that part of the issue is due to some team restructuring which means future patch notes will be MUCH better
We generally don't make promises but I can 100% promise this will not happen again. (Source)

Glad to know someone got fired for the sad state the patch was delivered in. (Though it probably won't help our situation)

**I Push Buttons** · 2017-01-12, 10:53 AM

What's sad is they buffed the sets, buffed the abilities, and then just gave blanket buffs to all three specs and they are still this far behind.

Do Blizzard do like any objectives measurements or take any metrics during this process?

Like what the fudge?

**Charge me Doctor** · 2017-01-12, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cerrion176

This is the exact ignorance of hunter mechanics that has created these problems to begin with. Most of your comments make it clear that you don't main a MM hunter and don't understand how SW worked with PS during 7.1. This isn't a problem as you're not balancing classes for Blizzard. For those of us who do play MM (and even BM to a lesser extent), it is obvious that whoever is in charge of hunter class balance at Blizzard is just as ignorant as you are (they even admitted they had no idea why the BM legendary belt was so important until someone explained it in detail). That ignorance has created the problems with 7.1.5 MM gameplay and damage. Personally, I saw a slight increase in ST (though still behind the buffs other classes received) and a 50% nerf to my AoE/cleave ability at the expense of very tedious gameplay coupled with punishing results if I even missed one AiS during a cycle due to movement within the Vulnerability window.

This is not something that a person or group of people working in blizzard can and should solve. It's community issue. Obviously that blizzard themselves have much more stats than players have, but community response is very important. Look at recent example of fire mage - they've got gutted in first patches of PTR, crit dropped by ~20%, huge reduction of burst damage and blizzard buffed abilities which you can't use because of lack of resource (critical hits). You ended up spending almost half of your time casting fireball.
There was an outrage from community with 3 or 4 really detailed explanations on battle.net/altered-time/mmo-champions. It's really important to get attention to your topic and provide feedback (not these "omg blizz r returds fix my class") on how this change will hurt your class.

**Cque** · 2017-01-12, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

It's quite hard to compare his marked shot overall damage because... well, 57 casts vs 44, but difference is not that dire, since with 10 less casts he did only 20% less damage after 28% nerf on damage of this ability.
Look at aimed shot on the other hand - in same amount of casts he did almost twice the damage

I don't want to argue just point one thing out, the time between both kills (Dec 21st and Jan 11th) did his artifact traits increase or were they capped at 54 on both kills?

**thilicen** · 2017-01-12, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by I Push Buttons

What's sad is they buffed the sets, buffed the abilities, and then just gave blanket buffs to all three specs and they are still this far behind.

Do Blizzard do like any objectives measurements or take any metrics during this process?

Like what the fudge?

Blizzard has never been able to fine-tune anything. It's remarkable, really. It's either to the ground or to the fucking sky. Can't say I know much about hunters or even the changes that were made this patch but the ones in our guild went from being top-tier to bottomfeeders over a week.

**Delaios** · 2017-01-12, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

but still, doesn't Vulnerable debuff have to be stacked? It looks like an issue with Sidewinders and not with Marked shot to me, and buffs to single target damage should be enough to compensate for this loss of burst AoE.

Practically speaking you never had to stack Vulnerable. Pre 7.1.5 it would stack if you weren't using Patient Sniper, but that talent was the best choice in every scenario. I think it was 3 stacks of 25% without the talent, whereas the talent would make it a flat 150% as well as an increased focus cap. The talent was superior for all situations so outside of level 1-59 MM hunters no one actually dealt with the stacking mechanic of Vulnerable.

**I Push Buttons** · 2017-01-12, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor

This is not something that a person or group of people working in blizzard can and should solve. It's community issue. Obviously that blizzard themselves have much more stats than players have, but community response is very important. Look at recent example of fire mage - they've got gutted in first patches of PTR, crit dropped by ~20%, huge reduction of burst damage and blizzard buffed abilities which you can't use because of lack of resource (critical hits). You ended up spending almost half of your time casting fireball.
There was an outrage from community with 3 or 4 really detailed explanations on battle.net/altered-time/mmo-champions. It's really important to get attention to your topic and provide feedback (not these "omg blizz r returds fix my class") on how this change will hurt your class.

Lol there were dozens of pages and thousands of comments on the dedicated spec threads and dozens of other threads made on the official 7.1.5 PTR forum...

Blizzard responded to the marksman one like twice to mention a couple hotfixes... They responded to the BM thread one single time to elaborate on a change to a legendary item... I don't think they ever replied to the survival thread, not that it got much buzz since no one plays the spec.

Literally thousands of posts worth of feedback and it was all ignored completely... Hell they didn't even change the useless (as in it was designed for an old version of the spec that didn't even exist anymore and served no purpose in the current spec) BM set until like a few days before the patch went live lol...

The feedback was there... Blizzard ignored it.

**Makro** · 2017-01-12, 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by Cerrion176

Only bright light is the recent post from Blizzard

Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
Patch Notes
As long as I've been at blizzard (4 years) the patch notes haven't gone live until 6pmish the previous day. this is earlier.
but ultimately, yes, a lot went wrong, which we're fixing for the 7.2 notes (including PTR notes) (Source)
The light of the tunnel is that part of the issue is due to some team restructuring which means future patch notes will be MUCH better
We generally don't make promises but I can 100% promise this will not happen again. (Source)

Glad to know someone got fired for the sad state the patch was delivered in. (Though it probably won't help our situation)

I think he's only talking about patch notes being wrong, not the actual content of the patch.

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Thread: Results are in - literally every class 100k dps higher on single target than hunters.

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