The Terrifying Stakes Of Repealing Obamacare Without A Clear Replacement

[Felya]

Considering im an actual Engineer by profession I can vouch that I do and you are looking at things through a very small window.

Well, no... if you are saying they are much smaller than US, thus cannot be analogues, me saying 'division or multiplication' inherently makes my window open wider than yours.

[cvsmith122]

This right here is the problem with obamacare. Give them a chance to bring some thing to market that does not increase the cost of plans. The other side is the cost for some thing like a CT scan is just stupid there is no reason why a CT scan should cost 15k. The machine will be used enough that a hospital can charge 1k or 2k.

The main issue is the health care industry just charges what ever then want for services. This needs to be fixed.

They also need to lower the premiums across the board. I pay for my health insurance, its not amazing but its good. I still pay 300 a month for it. When i first got into the work force my heath insurance only cost like 80 dollars a month. Granted with inflation thats probably like 150 a month but its almost doubled in the past 20 years.

Personally i think all health insurance companies should be required to be non profit. This would force them to use the profits each year to help those with out insurance, or to spend money in research.

Just to be clear United heath Group made profits of 10.3 Billion in profit, from revenue of 130.5 billion. This is just insane.

Blue cross blue shield made close to the same.

The other issue you have with obama care is insurance companies pulling out of it because the "Cost of obama care customers is to much". However they still make record profits.




Obama care as it is right now is the problem.

Id love to post the links to some pages that i used but the forums will not let me.

[Tehshocka]

I will ask again, what issues did you have in dealing with government through exchanges, just a couple of pages ago? You telling me that you make more than 55k, when I'm saying even 55k would disqualify you from receiving subsidies.

I personally never had to deal with the ACA or its website as documented clearly that I have job provided health insurance. What is your point? My tax dollars still contribute to it so therefore I would be considered a stakeholder just like anyone else who has paid taxes. Forgive me for being shortsighted as to why your question matters if I had issues or not.

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Well, no... if you are saying they are much smaller than US, thus cannot be analogues, me saying 'division or multiplication' inherently makes my window open wider than yours.

Dude you cant be serious right now. A population size of the United States will have more social economic ideologies across many spectrum compared to a country that has been literally of the same people up to a century ago.

The USA holds a wayyyyy more dynamic population than freaking Norway and if you can't agree with that you are straight up trolling right now.

[Felya]

I personally never had to deal with the ACA or its website as documented clearly that I have job provided health insurance. What is your point? My tax dollars still contribute to it so therefore I would be considered a stakeholder just like anyone else who has paid taxes. Forgive me for being shortsighted as to why your question matters if I had issues or not.

I confused you with @Anjerith who made the claim earlier.

You see no issue in your tax dollars going to your employer, to provide healthcare? Why exactly can't you just get the money and do it your self?

[Tehshocka]

I confused you with @Anjerith who made the claim earlier.

You see no issue in your tax dollars going to your employer, to provide healthcare? Why exactly can't you just get the money and do it your self?

Finally one thing we can agree on. I would not mind my employee compensation plan including estimated health care coverage in which I can venture out and make that choice on my own.

[Felya]

Dude you cant be serious right now. A population size of the United States will have more social economic ideologies across many spectrum compared to a country that has been literally of the same people up to a century ago.

So what? The ideology you have, has no actual impact on what ideology works.

The USA holds a wayyyyy more dynamic population than freaking Norway and if you can't agree with that you are straight up trolling right now.

That's what math is for. How is it trolling, to suggest we use math to adjust a model for a smaller group, towards a greater group? That's not trolling, that's basic kindergarten.

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Finally one thing we can agree on. I would not mind my employee compensation plan including estimated health care coverage in which I can venture out and make that choice on my own.

No, you simply cannot. Can you tell me why your employer provides insurance and what vehicle in ACA, outside of subsidies, is aimed at lowering prices?

[Tehshocka]

So what? The ideology you have, has no actual impact on what ideology works.



That's what math is for. How is it trolling, to suggest we use math to adjust a model for a smaller group, towards a greater group? That's not trolling, that's basic kindergarten.

Because both groups are disjoint. You do realize this.

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So what? The ideology you have, has no actual impact on what ideology works.



That's what math is for. How is it trolling, to suggest we use math to adjust a model for a smaller group, towards a greater group? That's not trolling, that's basic kindergarten.

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No, you simply cannot. Can you tell me why your employer provides insurance and what vehicle in ACA, outside of subsidies, is aimed at lowering prices?

You mean to tell me I cannot go to uhc.com and buy a plan right now?

Isn't it mandated currently that any employer offering full time work must provide some form of health insurance?

[NYC17]

Hypocrisy. It's what's for dinner.

Not using words properly; it's what's for dessert.

[Thepersona]

No, you've ignored half the country.

No... the rust belt workers did in fact vote against their interests. Jobs will not go back, and automation will bleeed out the remaining ones (which is the main source of job loss in the manufacturing sector). Trump tax cuts and deregulation willput a burden on social programs, placing a bigger burden on them, alongside shittier overall conditions. But hey,they voted for him. They will take the brunt of their policies, so they shall suffer

[Tehshocka]

No... the rust belt workers did in fact vote against their interests. Jobs will not go back, and automation will bleeed out the remaining ones (which is the main source of job loss in the manufacturing sector). Trump tax cuts and deregulation willput a burden on social programs, placing a bigger burden on them, alongside shittier overall conditions. But hey,they voted for him. They will take the brunt of their policies, so they shall suffer

And the Dems completely ignored them. Hillary barely spent any money in those states. So what is worse?

[NYC17]

They are so die-hard that they can't possibly see the flaws in almighty Lord Obama.

I mean the man is caught plain as day saying it on video and they still deny it.

Where is the denial that he said it? Show me.

You can't, because that isn't the counterpoint. If you need help understanding the counterpoint just ask. Or hitch your wagon to Zenkai's star, that can only work out well for you.

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Facts....it's what's not in your agenda.

Not using words properly...still; it's what's for midnight snack.

[Crissi]

Because both groups are disjoint. You do realize this.

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You mean to tell me I cannot go to uhc.com and buy a plan right now?

Isn't it mandated currently that any employer offering full time work must provide some form of health insurance?

You can, but take it from me who just did that: They only offer short term plans, nothing longer than a year, AND it gets mroe expensive if you want it for more than 6 months. Oh, they also have a 1 million cap, so good luck.

Basically, going directly to the insurer as an individual screws you over because individuals dont matter and have no bargaining power. This also means after the year is up, they can drop you if you get too expensive for them.

[Thepersona]

And the Dems completely ignored them. Hillary barely spent any money in those states. So what is worse?

Its worse to vote against your own interests, period.

[NYC17]

Your tears are delicious....and from your post history there won't be a shortage of them anytime soon.

Still waiting in you to show me the part where anyone denied what Obama said. Since you can't even do such a basic thing I don't see how you can do the more advanced work.

If swatting away your nonsense is considered tears, then consider me the Niagra Falls of Shanknasty's Fantasyland. I'm good with that.

[Scathbais]

Keep telling yourself that. Obamacare was a republican idea that had to be bastardized because of partisanship, and the democrats couldn't take credit for making people's lives better. The republicans had their chance to make the ACA great, in a bi-partisan effort to actually help the citizens of the U.S. instead they let politics and their hatred for "a muslim" president get in their way. They had six years to come up with a plan, and they don't have one yet.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/power...=.2dae88e5f0e9

Six years to get their shit together, and the best they can come up with is a "savings" account that won't actually help the poor, instead favours the rich.

So much false here I don't know where to start. You were alive and paying attention when the democrats had majorities in both houses and pushed through Obamacare without a single Republican signing on right? You do know that the democrats excluded republicans from their closed door sessions when the bill was drafted right? So how exactly was Obamacare a republican idea? Republicans favor private solutions and competition, not government mandates

You are joking about the Muslim thing I guess? Are you really going to claim that republicans are racist against Muslims? All of them? Even a majority of them? You are simply making things up to paint republicans as the bad guys here.

Nothing has been bi-partisan since Obama took over the Presidency. He refused to compromise with republicans on anything and resorted to executive fiat to go around Congress instead of trying to compromise with them. And just an aside: Saying "do it my way or else" is not compromise, but that is exactly how Obama acted over the last 8 years.

[Tehshocka]

You can, but take it from me who just did that: They only offer short term plans, nothing longer than a year, AND it gets mroe expensive if you want it for more than 6 months. Oh, they also have a 1 million cap, so good luck.

Basically, going directly to the insurer as an individual screws you over because individuals dont matter and have no bargaining power. This also means after the year is up, they can drop you if you get too expensive for them.

I see. So inherently if employers stopped doing business as we know it with Health Insurance Providers, then would we see plans offered through employers make their way to the marketplace without the requirement of an employer? Things to ponder.

So from your experience it is actually better in current form to get insurance from an employer. (The answer is yes im not trying to be dumb or sarcastic)
However, if said employer plans truly ever did hit the market as anyone can buy, then it is possible for employers to include in compensation plans a bump in salary to accommodate said plan price to a certain percentage. Effectively doing the same ish were doing already so what is the point outside of being able to shop price (assuming there is competition.)

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So much false here I don't know where to start. You were alive and paying attention when the democrats had majorities in both houses and pushed through Obamacare without a single Republican signing on right? You do know that the democrats excluded republicans from their closed door sessions when the bill was drafted right? So how exactly was Obamacare a republican idea? Republicans favor private solutions and competition, not government mandates

You are joking about the Muslim thing I guess? Are you really going to claim that republicans are racist against Muslims? All of them? Even a majority of them? You are simply making things up to paint republicans as the bad guys here.

Nothing has been bi-partisan since Obama took over the Presidency. He refused to compromise with republicans on anything and resorted to executive fiat to go around Congress instead of trying to compromise with them. And just an aside: Saying "do it my way or else" is not compromise, but that is exactly how Obama acted over the last 8 years.

BOOM /10char

[Crissi]

Not necessarily. Employers have bargaining power due to having multiple employees. Individuals don't. Why would insurers offer employer plans when they know they have the individuals at their mercy?

[Tehshocka]

Not necessarily. Employers have bargaining power due to having multiple employees. Individuals don't. Why would insurers offer employer plans when they know they have the individuals at their mercy?

Good question. The only way I know that would work was if NO insurance provider did employer based plans and everyone was strictly offering their plans to the market and within that market individuals would choose like they choose their style of coffee.

[Zan15]

This right here is the problem with obamacare. Give them a chance to bring some thing to market that does not increase the cost of plans. The other side is the cost for some thing like a CT scan is just stupid there is no reason why a CT scan should cost 15k. The machine will be used enough that a hospital can charge 1k or 2k.

The main issue is the health care industry just charges what ever then want for services. This needs to be fixed.

They also need to lower the premiums across the board. I pay for my health insurance, its not amazing but its good. I still pay 300 a month for it. When i first got into the work force my heath insurance only cost like 80 dollars a month. Granted with inflation thats probably like 150 a month but its almost doubled in the past 20 years.

Personally i think all health insurance companies should be required to be non profit. This would force them to use the profits each year to help those with out insurance, or to spend money in research.

Just to be clear United heath Group made profits of 10.3 Billion in profit, from revenue of 130.5 billion. This is just insane.

Blue cross blue shield made close to the same.

The other issue you have with obama care is insurance companies pulling out of it because the "Cost of obama care customers is to much". However they still make record profits.




Obama care as it is right now is the problem.

United's profit margin is 3-6.5% depending on the quarter. Not exactly exciting, terrifying or insane.


Sept. 30, 2016 4.25%
June 30, 2016 3.77%
March 31, 2016 3.62%
Dec. 31, 2015 2.79%
Sept. 30, 2015 3.85%
June 30, 2015 4.37%
March 31, 2015 3.95%


http://www.unitedhealthgroup.com/~/m...0-K.ashx?la=en

their 2015 revenue for insurance was $127 billion in premiums which they then turned around and spent $104b of it on HEALTH SERVICES for members or 82% right off the bat.


Your 10.3 billion in profits is pre-tax. their actual profit was $5.9b, which also includes several other segments other then insurance.

For full year 2015 their profit margin was 3.7%

not sounding too insane anymore is it?

the 10.3b in profit includes 3 other segements of their company that is not health insurance. their profit associated to health insurance was 5.9b.






on the flip side they paid a 1.9 billion dollar tax to support ACA.




People always think they are profit machines, and they are not.
the real savings come from the 11-13% operational cost they add to the system, where as a single payer would be 3-8%, before you start counting on the downstream savings of the operational cost of dealing with insurance companies.

[Dawnseven]

So how exactly was Obamacare a republican idea?

The basis of it was a plan that some Republicans were pushing for in the 90s.

The Heritage Foundation birthed the original idea in 1989. Some Republicans thought it was great (though it never came to a vote). Romney did a version of it in Massachusetts and a lot of people thought it was great, then the whole thing mutated into Obamacare.

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/11/1...s-differences/