The Nighthold Mythic Race Progression

[Kaneiac]

What do people actually want? They say they want a competitive rough race and lots of things to do but now it's too much?

[Twdft]

Different audiences.

My highest weapon is 39, I love to be able to get more power with pretty much whatever content I do. I always could do something but noone is forcing me to seeing that I only raid heroic in a friends & family raid.

People who compete for world first however have too much to do, the endless content I love burns them out.

[Deleted]

Why is there no video yet? I doubt there will be any new kills in the coming days so when the video gets released in a week the hype will already have died down. Boring.

[Deleted]

what if raids were like m+ instances. Every guild would start with +0 and then the faster you go trough them the better "key" your raiders would get. You could join only as high raid as your guild currently have. No forged stuff but steady 5 ilvl raise per key level. Every one that was part of killing highest last boss would get similar chest that there's now from m+. Maybe even limit 3 raids max per guild or something like that. Level could be limited for example +15-20 max.

Too late to think this trough fully, but you get the idea. There would be no world first race as it is now, but it would be more going on thing with limiting factor you can use on it because of max raids per char.

[dictainabox]

What do people actually want? They say they want a competitive rough race and lots of things to do but now it's too much?

"people" is not really helpful when you have two different groups you are talking about. People who are a bit more casual will, of course, want tons of content and, more importantly, not want to feel like they have exhausted everything immediately. Hardcore people are going to do whatever they have to in order to get an edge, and in this case that means multiple maxed weapon toons with days of mythic+ grinding and split raids. One persons fun quickly becomes another's burn out. This is why AP and artifact weapons as a means of indirectly controlling split raids has made a bad situation even worse. Again: they need to be more direct with their solution.

[Zoldor]

"people" is not really helpful when you have two different groups you are talking about. People who are a bit more casual will, of course, want tons of content and, more importantly, not want to feel like they have exhausted everything immediately. Hardcore people are going to do whatever they have to in order to get an edge, and in this case that means multiple maxed weapon toons with days of mythic+ grinding and split raids. One persons fun quickly becomes another's burn out. This is why AP and artifact weapons as a means of indirectly controlling split raids has made a bad situation even worse. Again: they need to be more direct with their solution.

I was fine with the AP until the post 35 traits. Find them pointless and a waste to the game. I see their power increase, but I don't find it rewarding for anyone. I don't think a soul would have cared if it maxed at 35 and we had to wait until 7.2 to go beyond that.

[Twdft]

A solution could also be to have a hard cap for the first two weeks of a new mythic raid:

- weapons inside the raid scale down to level 40, you could farm more but only lv 40 counts
- average ilvl scales down to 890 / 895 / 900 for first / middle / later bosses

[Deleted]

But can you steel a person?

Ask Wolverine!

[kamuimac]

can you blame them?

farm m+ for a month per 3-4 toons
farm heroic 5 times per week per 2-3 weeks
wipe on end bosses 200~ times per 2-3 bosses

and with this gradual content release you got 3 raids back to back to back with no breaks

somewhere in there you got to farm gold or mats for flasks/runes/food/enchants
deal with ddos and raid ID hijacks, poaching, people not showing up from burnouts or RL.

no reward, blizzard doesnt care, most players dont care, and you cant even stream the stuff live.

why would anyone do this if they can go play dota and make some money even if you're not top 10 team.

then why did people whine in EN when it wasnt tuned as high ? its karma biting them back - they wanted harsh progress they got harsh progress - lesson is be careful what you wish for.

Preventing the ridiculously long end of WoD is essential to preventing the hemorrhaging of players. .

and how exackly raid content is going to prevent it when majority of players dont raid ?

[Yunaqt]

and how exackly raid content is going to prevent it when majority of players dont raid ?

People say this a lot like there is only 1% of the playerbase that actually raids, when you look at the amount of guild kills on these bosses it's a pretty significant figure:

H: Nythendra 37,766 guild kills
M: Nythendra 14,217 guild kills

Or even looking at our newly released 3week old instance:

H: Skorpyron 15,982 guild kills
M: Skorpyron 3,081 guild kills

#CasualRaidersMatter

[BiggestNoob]

then why did people whine in EN when it wasnt tuned as high ? its karma biting them back - they wanted harsh progress they got harsh progress - lesson is be careful what you wish for.

Even if you were casual before EN came out it was undertuned. The problem here isn't that the content is hard, it's that the meta for doing that content isn't raiding, it's doing X hours of "prepare" and then doing the raid for Y hours, where X > Y by likely orders of magnitude. And for non-top guilds? There are legit unkillable bosses, especially for casual guilds who aren't full of people in BiS or near BiS legendaries pulling 95%+ DPS, even if they're in full TF heroic NH gear, and this is because of the out of band sources of player power and the content being tuned around that.

Really Blizzard should fix all the issues that have been pointed out for years now that detract from raiding and any meaningful raid-based progression. They're actually moving away from this, which is next level idiocy. This is precisely why Legion is such a shitty expansion.

[Emancptr]

then why did people whine in EN when it wasnt tuned as high ? its karma biting them back - they wanted harsh progress they got harsh progress - lesson is be careful what you wish for.

Harsh progression =/= 6 months of grinding.

"Hardcore" players love really hard progression. Nighthold has some great bosses and I think there is room to make some of the earlier bosses even harder (4-5 boss wall, instead of just 3 bosses that are considered hard and/or smooth the difficulty curve that spikes at Star Augar.) I don't think there is a single person in this thread that has said they would like Nighthold to be easier. And nobody is going to go back and say that Emerald Nightmare was a good difficulty (it sucked).

"Hardcore" players don't enjoy endless grinding. "Hardcore" players don't enjoy playing the game like a job for 6 months (with very little end in sight given 7.2 patch notes). "Hardcore" players don't enjoy doing 3 tiers (3 raids) of progression without a single break in-between.

"Hardcore" players understand that this content delivery system is absolutely great for the more casual crowd. Blizzard is constantly delivering things for casual players to do. So that when a casual player logs in they feel excited and engaged in the game. "Hardcore" players get why Blizzard is pushing the content the way that they are because it keeps those players subbed (and Hardcore players are less likely to unsub, which makes it easier for Blizzard to ignore/put off hardcore player concerns). And, casual players are a bigger part of the total subscriptions that WoW has. "Hardcore" players understand that we are a vocal minority complaining about these things.

At the same time, "Hardcore" players think that there is a middle ground that could be reached. Obviously a middle-ground that still heavily favors the casual player and delivering more content, but puts a cap on the "requirement" that hardcore players feel obligated to complete.

Why do we have an endless artifact power grind when casual players are only at 35-40 traits? Artifact Power doesn't seem to drive casual players (most say they don't care after 35), but it's a grind that "hardcore" players feel they have to complete.

Why do we release raids so close together? Even some "hardcore" players didn't complete Mythic ToV, but we were instantly pushed into Nighthold progression because of the frantic pace of content.

Why is M+ so rewarding? M+ gives you AP, Legendaries, and Gear at the best possible rate (better than Mythic Raids). M+ is a completely uncapped source for player power, which means even if there's nothing else to do in the game there's always M+ for "hardcore" players to grind.

These are questions/concerns that a lot of "hardcore" players have regarding the current design direction of Blizzard. And, for the most part, Blizzard has been ignoring these concerns in favor of pushing more content.

[Redblade]

A solution could also be to have a hard cap for the first two weeks of a new mythic raid:

- weapons inside the raid scale down to level 40, you could farm more but only lv 40 counts
- average ilvl scales down to 890 / 895 / 900 for first / middle / later bosses

Would be better to just release m+ with mythic raiding at the beginning the expansion and at the start of each new raid share lockout between m+ and raids so people have to choose for the first 2-3 weeks. This way you can still do m+ with alts if you want something to do and can't feel forced to farm m+ for gear on main as you're locked out due to raiding.

The raid split runs is a harder nut to crack without getting in to account wide lockouts and even then you can bypass it with multiple accounts.

[Kuruption]

then why did people whine in EN when it wasnt tuned as high ? its karma biting them back - they wanted harsh progress they got harsh progress - lesson is be careful what you wish for.

A raid being hard isn't the same as all the crap that needs to be down in between raids. In previous expansions, it was "go crazy for 2 weeks, raid 1-2 days a week to clear raid on all your toons, do whatever you want after that". Now it's "go crazy on 4-5 toons to get max traits, go for legendaries (which is a terrible system), then raid crazy for 2 weeks, keep getting more and more AP for more and more traits on all your toons, and run multiple M+s".

I personally like the system because I don't care too much about my raid rank and just go at my own pace and I always have something to do. I know these guys make their own decision to do what they're doing, but it's beyond crazy how much of a grind there is.

I guess we'll see how Blizzard goes with it in the future. But if I was in a WF guild, I'd seriously consider thinking "you know what? fuck this, I spend all this time and even if I'm #1, I don't get shit out of it besides a little E-Fame."

[BiggestNoob]

The raid split runs is a harder nut to crack without getting in to account wide lockouts and even then you can bypass it with multiple accounts.

There are definitely options that would kill splits without affecting the race too much. Blizzard largely ignored the discussion that was had for like a solid 6 months at the end of HFC on how to do this after they claimed they didn't like that aspect of the game.

And then they made it worse in Legion, in a classic Blizzard move.

[Redblade]

There are definitely options that would kill splits without affecting the race too much. Blizzard largely ignored the discussion that was had for like a solid 6 months at the end of HFC on how to do this after they claimed they didn't like that aspect of the game.

Yeah I'm not saying it's impossible just that it's a harder issue to solve elegantly to get to the core of the problem without screwing others over too much.

And then they made it worse in Legion, in a classic Blizzard move.

As usual, Blizzard's hubris when it comes to certain designs is sad to see. Legendary system is a prime example of this, I'd claim that the wast majority of players finds it to be terrible and that the recent changes did nothing to address the issue. Yet when responding to complaints about it they tell us that more changes will come in a few months with the next patch. They need to admit they were wrong form the get go and step up to the plate and provide immediate solutions to the problem...and yet they still act as if it's just minor adjustments that's needed while ignoring the fact that the core of the system is what sucks.

[Deleted]

So dunno if anyone cares about the german guilds but does anyone know if impact or ssff got 8/10 first?
I dont know how blizzard can fail with the armory for that long and a top 20 guild cant even appear on wowprogress

[Deleted]

ssff got it

[Eggroll]

So dunno if anyone cares about the german guilds but does anyone know if impact or ssff got 8/10 first?
I dont know how blizzard can fail with the armory for that long and a top 20 guild cant even appear on wowprogress

www.method.gg has reported the ssff kill one hour after Impact's kill, not sure though wether it actually went down this way.
http://www.method.gg/raidprogress

[Tennis]

I'm really confused how Method wasn't first this time around. It really doesn't add up.