Fury as AfD politician urges Germany to 'stop remembering Nazi crimes'

[Deleted]

The trash I refer to are the nutters that you are chasing away into the dark to fester and eventually infect the society.

That's the real danger of censoring speech and thought.

Well, they may tell everyone they want Adolf back. The thing they dont may do is sedition or trying to make a party thats against our basic law. Beside that, there are large groups of nationalists and even nationalist parties in germany. Be it the nazi-alike NPD, be it the putinist AFD.

We have a whole bunch of fanatics that build parties. The AFD as a right wing party, Die Linke as a partly communist party.. the green party as the guys who want to smoke their plants, and a ton of center parties including liberals and conservatives.

[Noradin]

[...]
people often liked to bring up the fact Hitler was Austrian any time they talked about Politics as well.
[...]

I think that is because Austrians like to claim W.A. Mozart who was a citizen of the Holy Roman Empire.

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Didnt Bavaria prevent the sale until recently?

No, they held the German equivalent of the copyright for the German version of it (not for the English translation), thus one would have needed their permission to print more of them. Selling existing ones was perfectly legal.

[Kraenen]

Germans have paid enough for the sins of their fathers. Instead of ignoring it, teach it in a way that doesn't demonize white German people.

[Deleted]

Germans have paid enough for the sins of their fathers. Instead of ignoring it, teach it in a way that doesn't demonize white German people.

Which doesnt change the fact we should learn from the past. From that we know that both nationalism and communism, means far left or far right, always lead to catastrophe.

[Elba]

I find this oppressive nightmare scenario of Germany you guys are creating in your heads awfully entertaining. Talking out of your ass at the finest.

As Kangodo said, if you don't like it, don't come.

[Hyxi]

Germans have paid enough for the sins of their fathers.

This was pretty much the core of the Nazi party's political platform in regards to WWI.

I wonder why the Germans are skeptical when a politician shows up and starts trying to cultivate nationalism...

[josykay]

Didnt Bavaria prevent the sale until recently?

They prevented the creation of new prints, since the state of Bavaria was the copyright owner. Now, after more than 70 years after Hitler's passing, the copyright is void, so it can be reprinted by essentially anyone. Most sell it with commentary, except some dubious far right printer, who said, he is selling it "without those annoying comments".
However, you were able to get used ones, or get it via some archives, libraries, or simply by private owners having one lying around. Which isn't that uncommon, since it was essentially given to everyone.

I don't now... there is plenty of memorial stuff from other epoches. Tons of Bismarck monuments, the "Liberationhall" in Bavaria for the victory against Napoleon, Walhalla in Regensburg, "Siegessäule" of Berlin, monuments of other rulers, kings, poets, philosophs... And well, there are memorials for events during WW2, including the Brandnacht of Darmstadt for example, or a memorial for the battleship Scharnhorst and it's killed crew. No idea what that guy is talking about.

[Zarc]

Are you mental?

I mean, have you spent time with Germans? Real time? Because I don't know any (and I know a lot) that aren't constantly aware and self conscious of the Holocaust.

Living in the past kills a people. Christ, it's why Germany spends so much money bailing everyone out all the time.

I have met many Germans, got a German colleague at work just as an example. 99.9% of the time we talk about the project we're working on, the code we're writing as web developers, movies and tv series and just random activities outside of work. Hardly never talk about the Holocaust. You must have meet some really depressing Germans.

[Nerovar]

Are you mental?

I mean, have you spent time with Germans? Real time? Because I don't know any (and I know a lot) that aren't constantly aware and self conscious of the Holocaust.

Living in the past kills a people. Christ, it's why Germany spends so much money bailing everyone out all the time.

I'm German (and I've also spent time with Germans ) and we only really talk about the Holocaust when at school or university. Believe it or not most people have other things on their mind like for example the people they care about or their day-to-day lives. Where did you get this idea from? Jesus, sometimes I just think that you people need to get outside more often, talk to people et cetera.

[May90]

I am not convinced the world works like that these days if ever it did.

However and to the point.. if you censor speech you remove your own capacity to confront it

And that's the main problem. Censored opinions become unchallenged, and an unchallenged opinion has a good chance to jump out of the closet at the convenient moment and, before anyone can reasonably confront it, cease the power.

I would welcome more discussions like this, even with people with the worst ideas possible.

[Slant]

You don't learn from the past by censoring it. You learn from the past by not repeating it.

Nazi symbology isn't banned for educational purposes. Just saying. If you're thinking of an argument, we've probably brought it up ourselves 70 years ago.

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I'm German (and I've also spent time with Germans ) and we only really talk about the Holocaust when at school or university. Believe it or not most people have other things on their mind like for example the people they care about or their day-to-day lives. Where did you get this idea from? Jesus, sometimes I just think that you people need to get outside more often, talk to people et cetera.

I think it's a morbid fascination for that era. Some people get a boner just thinking about the drama involved. And they assume since they fantasize about it all day long, naturally Germans must, too. Since we're "at the source" of their dream fantasy.

[JohnBrown1917]

And that's the main problem. Censored opinions become unchallenged, and an unchallenged opinion has a good chance to jump out of the closet at the convenient moment and, before anyone can reasonably confront it, cease the power.

I would welcome more discussions like this, even with people with the worst ideas possible.

Good ol' Hans Teeuwen, his piece on how Erdogan 'the boy whore', still owes him a blowjob was great.

[Mayhem]

And that's the main problem. Censored opinions become unchallenged, and an unchallenged opinion has a good chance to jump out of the closet at the convenient moment and, before anyone can reasonably confront it, cease the power.

I would welcome more discussions like this, even with people with the worst ideas possible.

You´re right, nazism hasn´t been challenged already, we really need to start challenging nazi opinions.

Better give them a voice and a medium to reach more people, that´ll help.

Just out of curiosity, how much does it help that every idiot can reach millions of peoples with their idiotic ideas and slander in the US?

Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones... isn´t it great that they can influence millions of listeners/viewers? How´s that challenging going?

[May90]

You´re right, nazism hasn´t been challenged already, we really need to start challenging nazi opinions.

Better give them a voice and a medium to reach more people, that´ll help.

Just out of curiosity, how much does it help that every idiot can reach millions of peoples with their idiotic ideas and slander in the US?

Rush Limbaugh, Alex Jones... isn´t it great that they can influence millions of listeners/viewers? How´s that challenging going?

Compare the number of people agreeing with Alex Jones, to the number of people agreeing with Martin Luther King Jr. If you are afraid of a random conspiracy theorist like Alex Jones, I'm afraid democracy isn't for you... Democracy is all about people with the opposing views colliding in a discussion and finding consensus. It is not about forcing everyone to live in the society which you personally believe is the "right one". And yes, sometimes nasty ideas win (temporarily) - it is a part of the process.

Choosing censorship over freedom and dictatorship over democracy is very attractive at the first glance... But you merely should look at the history to see where it always leads.

[Mayhem]

Compare the number of people agreeing with Alex Jones, to the number of people agreeing with Martin Luther King Jr. If you are afraid of a random conspiracy theorist like Alex Jones, I'm afraid democracy isn't for you... Democracy is all about people with the opposing views colliding in a discussion and finding consensus. It is not about forcing everyone to live in the society which you personally believe is the "right one". And yes, sometimes nasty ideas win (temporarily) - it is a part of the process.

Choosing censorship over freedom and dictatorship over democracy is very attractive at the first glance... But you merely should look at the history to see where it always leads.

If they actually want to discuss things they can still do so, but that doesn´t mean we have to allow every shit to be pushed regardless. It´s not like you´re talking about people who actually want to discuss stuff, you´re talking about people who have a set idea of what is and what isn´t and don´t care for reason.

Comparing numbers is really meaningless anyway, it´s not like that a handful of people can´t impact the lives of thousands.

[May90]

If they actually want to discuss things they can still do so, but that doesn´t mean we have to allow every shit to be pushed regardless. It´s not like you´re talking about people who actually want to discuss stuff, you´re talking about people who have a set idea of what is and what isn´t and don´t care for reason.

Comparing numbers is really meaningless anyway, it´s not like that a handful of people can´t impact the lives of thousands.

Censoring opinions based on how reasonable they are and people who promote them... This really isn't going to work well. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that all people are different, and just because some of them are dumb or crazy, doesn't mean you should have the right to force them to live a certain way. If someone believes a psycho like Alex Jones, their voice should be heard, and it is up to the society to make its mind on how reasonable that voice is, and to destroy that voice in a discussion. If they want to discuss stuff, they will be defeated. If they don't want to, the weakness of their position will be obvious to everyone, and, again, they will be defeated.

All these ideas about censoring "wrong" opinions are based on the wrong premise: that there is some objective "ideal society" that everyone should live in. This is a pretty childish approach, and democracy is not for children, it is for adults who aren't afraid of confrontation and possible loss in it.

[Mayhem]

Censoring opinions based on how reasonable they are and people who promote them... This really isn't going to work well. Ultimately, it comes down to the fact that all people are different, and just because some of them are dumb or crazy, doesn't mean you should have the right to force them to live a certain way. If someone believes a psycho like Alex Jones, their voice should be heard, and it is up to the society to make its mind on how reasonable that voice is, and to destroy that voice in a discussion. If they want to discuss stuff, they will be defeated. If they don't want to, the weakness of their position will be obvious to everyone, and, again, they will be defeated.

All these ideas about censoring "wrong" opinions are based on the wrong premise: that there is some objective "ideal society" that everyone should live in. This is a pretty childish approach, and democracy is not for children, it is for adults who aren't afraid of confrontation and possible loss in it.

You are defending nazis and their ideas right now, you´re aware of that? I mean at some point society should be able to say "ok, guys, this idea you´re promoting, is fucked up and wrong by all means, just shut up" nazism is one of those ideas.

[May90]

You are defending nazis and their ideas right now, you´re aware of that? I mean at some point society should be able to say "ok, guys, this idea you´re promoting, is fucked up and wrong by all means, just shut up" nazism is one of those ideas.

Defending their right for free speech = defending their ideas? Eh...

You defeat nazis by making everyone despise their ideology through consistent discussion, not by banning it and making its followers into martyrs - and forcing your way of life on everyone else.

[announced]

@Wells thank you so much for asking that simple question, this is the pearl of all posts... :P

Perhaps people still talk about the KKK, because the KKK still exists... about those neonazis... they're more like 16-30. See, we call them "neo-"nazis, because they are the "new" nazis. And they literally want to continue the nazi regime and glorify everything Hitler did. Yes, that does include killing 6 million Jews. No, I'm not exaggerating, that is literally what they seek. It's hard to not pay attention to that unless you literally, in a very real sense, want to revert back to a state where the world had to beat your country into a pulp before it stopped.

So, you were telling us we should just ignore it and pretend everything's peachy?

no dont ignore it, but dont dwell on it either. The KKK has around 10,000 members split across the United States of America. Compared to its peak at 4 million members wouldn't you agree its mostly irrelevant? Yes there will always be some people with problems but that's just life.

As for Neo Nazis, there aren't many left, apparently the majority of them were in Russia, in the US and Germany they are far and few between, again irrelevant. I hate their ideas but its really not something that i would constantly dwell on. People tend to constantly worry about things tend to make them happen.

[Slant]

no dont ignore it, but dont dwell on it either. The KKK has around 10,000 members split across the United States of America. Compared to its peak at 4 million members wouldn't you agree its mostly irrelevant? Yes there will always be some people with problems but that's just life.

As for Neo Nazis, there aren't many left, apparently the majority of them were in Russia, in the US and Germany they are far and few between, again irrelevant. I hate their ideas but its really not something that i would constantly dwell on. People tend to constantly worry about things tend to make them happen.

Erm, they're not many compared to overall population. But they are a very violent criminal group that endangers our constitutional values. We're not dwelling on them per se, but we're dealing with them. Just like we're not dwelling on terrorism but deal with it instead. We're not perfect, but if there's one thing we're pretty decent at lately it's not freaking out and going the moderate middle way however appropriately we can manage.

Same goes for how we deal with our past. Despite all the super concerned "don't dwell on it" posts in this thread, we are actually not dwelling on it, nor are we depressed or constantly reminded of it. It's sad that I have to point this out, but we're a pretty normal nation with people worrying about things like rent, food, job, family and which team our favourite club is playing against next weekend, or in my case, what computer hardware I should invest in for my new beastmode gaming setup and how to explain the absolutely vital for living necessity of investing that kind of money to my gf and so on. You know, normal people stuff.

Or, to put it another way... I don't actually feel like I personally care much about WW2. But if someone asks me about my opinion, I am educated enough to tell him in no uncertain terms what kind of a shitshow that was. And if a Neonazi starts a speech somewhere in Dresden that could pretty much be a modern carbon copy of Hitler's "beer-hall" speech in Munich, I can spot the similarities and be concerned about that movement. If I had not been educated about that era and if Germany didn't know its own past very well, we might have let this one slide and ignore it. But we are educated, we know our history... and this speech raised a lot of red flags and hairs stood up all over the nation over this. It literally forces his own party to denounce him as many feel he has crossed the line to open nazism. This is good. This is a win for democracy. That is why we emphasize that people should be aware of history instead of pretending it never happened just to... I don't know, so foreigners like you can say that we don't feel guilty? Rofl...

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Defending their right for free speech = defending their ideas? Eh...

You defeat nazis by making everyone despise their ideology through consistent discussion, not by banning it and making its followers into martyrs - and forcing your way of life on everyone else.

Yes, but once people despise their ideology, don't go around saying "but don't despise them, otherwise you'll martyr them".